Rippetoe question

[Gitarzan]

I am looking for a new routine and although I am not a newbie, I am looking at a Rippetoe routine. Here's my question, the instructions say to do 3 sets of 5 reps using the same weight. Now usually if you're using a weight that you can do 5 reps on the third set when you are fatigued, you could have probably done 7 or 8 on the first sets when you are still fresh. Using a routine like this, should I stop at 5 on the early sets? Or do the instructions really mean *at least* 5 reps. I have always done as many reps as I can during each set. Stopping early seems wrong. Am I missing something?

[SV1000]

If I understand your question, the weight you end up using for 3x5 should put you near but not at failure by the third set. When you workout again, you should be able to add more weight but still complete 3x5. And yes, 5 reps max for the work sets.

[bulldog71]

Rippetoe's is not a program that you train to failure on! Actually failure is to be avoided. When you hit failure it is looked at as a stall which means dropping the weight back, and then starting your progressions back up.

[BrotherWolf]

I am looking for a new routine and although I am not a newbie, I am looking at a Rippetoe routine. Here's my question, the instructions say to do 3 sets of 5 reps using the same weight. Now usually if you're using a weight that you can do 5 reps on the third set when you are fatigued, you could have probably done 7 or 8 on the first sets when you are still fresh. Using a routine like this, should I stop at 5 on the early sets? Or do the instructions really mean *at least* 5 reps. I have always done as many reps as I can during each set. Stopping early seems wrong. Am I missing something?

You have the book right ??? follow the book !!!

and I mean follow it to the letter..

[dartol]

You have the book right ??? follow the book !!!

and I mean follow it to the letter..

X2!

And from Mr. Rippetoe as posted in the 'Rippetoe wisdom' thread...

"My program is 3x/week barbell training until the strength gains produced by linear progression are exhausted. That's it, the whole program. Adding a bunch of other stuff in, or even adding a little other stuff in makes it NOT MY PROGRAM, because it fundamentally alters your response to the stress. Do what you want, of course, but it won't be my program if you do it your way."

LOL

Darren

[BrotherWolf]

X2!

And from Mr. Rippetoe as posted in the 'Rippetoe wisdom' thread...

"My program is 3x/week barbell training until the strength gains produced by linear progression are exhausted. That's it, the whole program. Adding a bunch of other stuff in, or even adding a little other stuff in makes it NOT MY PROGRAM, because it fundamentally alters your response to the stress. Do what you want, of course, but it won't be my program if you do it your way."

LOL

Darren

SS must be the simplest workout method ever, so simple some people want it to be more complicated .. go figure

[dbx]

If it's so simple, why haven't any of you actually answered the OP's question?

[SV1000]

And yes, 5 reps max for the work sets.

Questioned answered!

[dbx]

Questioned answered!

I beg to differ. The way I read his post/question, he's not looking for confirmation of using 5reps each set. He's really looking for an explanation that makes sense of how he can adequately challenge himself when using the same weight for 5 reps across 3 sets. There's a huge difference in what you replied and what I believe he's looking for. I can't answer because I know nothing of Rippie's program

[Stenn]

should I stop at 5 on the early sets?

Yes. Next question?

If you just gotta go to failure, save it for the last set. This is what I do. If I find that I can do 5,5,7 then I know that I've low-balled the weight and need to man-up and increase the weight for next time.

[SV1000]

I am no expert, I used the program for a year or so and then bought the book. About 75% of the contents of Starting Strength is the technique for all the exercises. The internet was fairly accurate on the concept though.

The OP asked if he should stop at 5 reps on what I assume are sets 1 and 2. The answer is no, you do 3 sets of 5.

But you have to choose a weight when starting the program that allows you to do 3x5 with the last few reps close to failure. But as a previous poster said, not to failure. At the next workout, you add weight to the previous 3x5 sets for the exercise and should be able to complete them. If you can't, the original starting weight was to high. If it was easy to make 3x5, the original weight was probably low.

dbx, I think you are just to old for the internet and should post in the Misc section as proof

[dbx]

If you just gotta go to failure, save it for the last set. This is what I do. If I find that I can do 5,5,7 then I know that I've low-balled the weight and need to man-up and increase the weight for next time.

I think this ^ is kind of what he was probably looking for. I also thought rest between sets might be mentioned as part of the answer, but again, I don't know this guy's program.

[dbx]

dbx, I think you are just to old for the internet and should post in the Misc section as proof

I know, I know.

But seriously, the reason I kind pointed out that what he was really asking wasn't really being answered? Beside the fact that I really don't know Ripp's program...it's because people here are all too afraid to touch this very subject. That is, the subtleties of how we can low-ball while working out in order to appear to make gains the next session. It's a subject that the serious find interesting, but nobody really wants to discuss. I started a thread about it 2yrs ago, and a bunch of the more serious members posted that they were looking forward to the responses, but the thread died very quickly.

[BrotherWolf]

If it's so simple, why haven't any of you actually answered the OP's question?

becasuse if he has the book or even read the wiki FAQ he already knows the answer to that..

it's 3x5 not 3xfailure, like I said it's a simple program people try to make it more complicated than what it should be

[Dave76]

...it's because people here are all too afraid to touch this very subject. That is, the subtleties of how we can low-ball while working out in order to appear to make gains the next session...

You aren't low balling anything. Rip's program is designed for the rank novice. They start out low because they haven't perfected their form yet and form is learned as the weight gradually increases.

For someone who is a little more advanced, the first few sessions serve as a deloading and recovery period. The program uses a simple workout to workout linear progression scheme. It is the simplest of progression schemes and will only work for a novice. Once you get to the point that you can't make progress using the simple linear scheme, you are, by definition, no longer a novice and more complex programming is necessary.

It's a strength program and rest periods between sets are not a primary consideration. You rest however long you need to rest to get the next set of 5. With heavy squats, a 5 minute rest period is not uncommon. The trick is to rest long enough to get the next set without resting so long that you get cold.

OP, do sets of 5 reps and no more. Add weight to the bar every time you go to the gym. It won't be long before the program becomes very challenging.

[BrotherWolf]

That is, the subtleties of how we can low-ball while working out in order to appear to make gains the next session.

can you expand on this subject ? it's interesting..

[BrotherWolf]

Yes. Next question?

If you just gotta go to failure, save it for the last set. This is what I do. If I find that I can do 5,5,7 then I know that I've low-balled the weight and need to man-up and increase the weight for next time.

But you're not doing SS anymore , you're in the intermediate/advanced programming

[dbx]

can you expand on this subject ? it's interesting..

I'll be glad to, but it'll be an hour before I can. I'm overdue to run my 6miles for the day .

[BrotherWolf]

I'll be glad to, but it'll be an hour before I can. I'm overdue to run my 6miles for the day .

I was serious it's an interesting subject...at your convenience

[crupiea]

You will be fine. Just start doing it. After a few weeks of increases every workout this wont be a problem. Be sure to give yourself a bit of time between sets.

I have been doing this program for over a year and I love it.

Its best to buy the book becasue that will really answer all your questions.

Just because its called Basic Barbell Training doesnt mean its just for beginners.

This has some good info for you.

http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wi..._Strength_Wiki

[Gitarzan]

Wow! I didn't think my question would generate so much discussion. I really appreciate all the responses. For clarification, my question is really "If I can do more than 5 reps during sets 1 or 2, should I, or should I stop at 5?" I would obviously do all 3 sets and increase the weight next time if 5 reps was easy on the third set.

The general consensus seems to be 5 reps max, no matter what, and increase the weight as needed.

Thanks all!

[Marius_Ursus]

You aren't low balling anything. Rip's program is designed for the rank novice. They start out low because they haven't perfected their form yet and form is learned as the weight gradually increases.

For someone who is a little more advanced, the first few sessions serve as a deloading and recovery period. The program uses a simple workout to workout linear progression scheme. It is the simplest of progression schemes and will only work for a novice. Once you get to the point that you can't make progress using the simple linear scheme, you are, by definition, no longer a novice and more complex programming is necessary.

It's a strength program and rest periods between sets are not a primary consideration. You rest however long you need to rest to get the next set of 5. With heavy squats, a 5 minute rest period is not uncommon. The trick is to rest long enough to get the next set without resting so long that you get cold.

OP, do sets of 5 reps and no more. Add weight to the bar every time you go to the gym. It won't be long before the program becomes very challenging.

From what I understand Rip's program is very simliar to the Power to the People program, and my own training might be considered a hybrid of the two. I agree it's not low-balling your gains if you're in it primarily for strength training. Those progressive loads require cycling to be effective, and the way I determine my starting weight for a given cycle is to start at 60% (give or take, sometimes less, sometimes more) of my last 1RM and use that as my starting point, so that at the end of six weeks, my 1RM has gone up.

It takes some days of lifting a little less or a little more either in pounds or in sets, but the long-term six-week goal for me is always to increase the 1RM.

[BrotherWolf]

The general consensus seems to be 5 reps max, no matter what, and increase the weight as needed.

Thanks all!

Sorry I don't mean to be harsh or a pita but it' not general consensus, it's how the program is designed
The Original Starting Strength Novice Program

Workout A
3x5 Squat
3x5 Bench Press
1x5 Deadlift

Workout B
3x5 Squat
3x5 Press
5x3 Power cleans

Workouts A and B alternate on 3 non-consecutive days per week.

if you find SS not challenging enough then you need to move on to an intermediate/advanced program like for example Bill starr's 5x5
or Rippetoe's practical programming Texas method


http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wi...rting_Strength


you can also ask him (M. Rippetoe) questions on his forum on strength mill, after a few months on SS I guarantee you'll be an A**hole just like us ..his attitude is contagious LOL
http://strengthmill.net/forum/index.php

[dbx]

I was serious it's an interesting subject...at your convenience

As I was running, I started thinking how most of this will fall on deaf ears, and that many might not even fully understand no matter how well I might articulate my point. I mean, this goes a bit deeper than what the OP even asked (or at least what I perceived he asked), and nobody seemed to understand what he was even trying to get to the bottom of. Nevertheless, here's the short version: Since I'm currently doing DC, I'll start by using its principles as an example.

Like most programs, the idea is to beat your previous session's weight and/or reps lifted. However, if you give it everything you have (even short of absolute failure) each session, the chances are more than high, that you will not be able to in fact, beat the previous session's numbers on many occasions. Why? So many variables are in play; diet, strength cycles, mentality/mood, etc... So, while doing DC, if I beat last session curls by one rep....did I actually do my negatives for the same time? Did I actually do the isotonic and eccentric contractions at the same speed? Even just a few seconds spread over the course of a single set, let alone 2 or 3, could be enough of a difference to add or subtract a couple of reps. Did I take 12 breaths between sets last time or 15? Again, enough of a difference to make a difference in obtaining or losing a rep across a set.

When keeping a journal, I once lamented to a few honest fellow journalers if I was the only one who wasn't making steady increases in weight each and every week, because it seemed like most everyone else was. They responded, "No, you're not the only one." In other words, besides some of the many variables I've mentioned, I was probably going at it at a true 98% (a subject in itself) each session, where I gave it all I had, short of risking an injury. With that kind of intensity, it's just not likely you can continue to repeatedly climb the ladder without hitting more than a few walls/plateaus.

I didn't share this to try to complicate anything for anybody. What we do in the gym is entirely up to each of us. We get back what we put into it. When I can't beat what I did last time? I might be disappointed, but I don't blink...because I know I gave it all I had. Who can ask for more than that? All things equal...proper diet, rest, etc., then yes, we should be able to improve each session. But I fear many newbies get discouraged because they may feel they've failed if they cannot. And in the end, they might just be the ones giving it more (percentage-wise) when they're in the gym!

Back to what I perceived the OP's real question to be, he seemed to be concerned with the very question of how much effort to put forth in order to repeat the same scheme 3 times in a row. It could be reasonably argued that if you're really giving it 100%, that you probably could not do it. He's looking for that balance. That....90% 1st set, 95% 2nd set, and 98% 3rd set to be able to complete what he's being instructed to do. He doesn't want to feel like he's sandbagging with the weight on the first set if he's leaving something in the tank. He just wants to do the right thing, and he doesn't yet know that he just needs to find the right balance that works for him, and that he knows he's giving it his all when all is said and done.

[Gitarzan]

Thanks DBX. That was well-said and exactly what I was looking for.

BTW, I just ordered the book from Amazon. Off I go!

[samori]

great info here

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=99822

[dbx]

Thanks DBX. That was well-said and exactly what I was looking for.

Cool. I was hoping my post might help some others, but I was picturing you chiming in after and saying, "No, that's not what I was asking!" .

Just work at it hard and you'll find that balance

[BrotherWolf]

Back to what I perceived the OP's real question to be, he seemed to be concerned with the very question of how much effort to put forth in order to repeat the same scheme 3 times in a row. It could be reasonably argued that if you're really giving it 100%, that you probably could not do it. He's looking for that balance. That....90% 1st set, 95% 2nd set, and 98% 3rd set to be able to complete what he's being instructed to do. He doesn't want to feel like he's sandbagging with the weight on the first set if he's leaving something in the tank. He just wants to do the right thing, and he doesn't yet know that he just needs to find the right balance that works for him, and that he knows he's giving it his all when all is said and done.

I get it and understand what you're saying and it makes perfect sense from your point of view ..
however you are doing DC not SS and you're an advanced lifter, I don't think it's possible to make progress every workout if you are so advanced, genetic limitations comes in the game and all the other aspects you have mentioned.... sleeping, diet, mood, tight underwear etc...


As hard as it might be to understand when starting SS ego is left outside the door, even if you could do 20 reps x3, to be able to progress at the pace that SS allows you to, you need to follow the rules ..

The book and the wiki FAQ covers why and how only 3x5 and more importantly how you get to your correct working weight.

I don't consider it sandbagging just smart programming.

But I fear many newbies get discouraged because they may feel they've failed if they cannot. And in the end, they might just be the ones giving it more (percentage-wise) when they're in the gym!

So true but not only newbies... that's the ego, they assume because they can do more they should do more , when doing SS they stall after 1 week and either give up or think they need to do even more....

[Dave76]

DBX, I get what you're saying. This does go a bit deeper than the OP's question but, since he has his answer...

Generally speaking, I think you're describing the differences between a bb'ing program and a strength program. I know you didn't do it intentionally, but there's no comparison between a novice strength routine (Rippetoe's Starting Strength) and an advanced bb'ing routine (DC).

I trained in the bb style many years ago, had a long layoff, and returned to weight training at a power lifting type gym. Personally, I have had more success training for strength. With a strength program, the only thing that really matters is how much weight is on the bar (with good form, of course). The other variables you mentioned are relatively unimportant. With a bb'ing program, you are trying to stimulate growth and those variables become important.

As I said, I have had more success with the strength routine. For me, it was a matter of simplification. My simple mind can understand whether or not I lifted more weight today than I did last week. I understand TUT, cadence, rest periods, etc. I found that, as a novice, I was much better off concentrating on one thing at a time.

No one can continuously add strength every week. A novice can do it. An early intermediate can do it. The more advanced trainee requires more complex programming with slower increases in strength.

[dbx]

I get it and understand what you're saying and it makes perfect sense from your point of view ..
however you are doing DC not SS and you're an advanced lifter,

Valid point, but I'll stand by the OP, who's a beginner, saying I hit the nail on the head with what he was looking for . The difference you mention holds some water, but the variables I mentioned can stretch across all levels of lifting.

DBX, I get what you're saying. This does go a bit deeper than the OP's question but, since he has his answer...

Generally speaking, I think you're describing the differences between a bb'ing program and a strength program. I know you didn't do it intentionally, but there's no comparison between a novice strength routine (Rippetoe's Starting Strength) and an advanced bb'ing routine (DC).

Very good point Dave, as I didn't think of it that way. Yet I would still repeat part of my reply above to BW. And again, I must admit that I know nothing of Rippetoe's program, but I know it's human nature to ponder some of these variables if we're honest with ourselves. But yes, BBing and strength training can be two different animals.....but not always. And that's a subject for it's own thread, lol. I know some competitive BBers here who only want to look like can bench 500lbs, and other competitive BBers here who strive toward doing so while building. But again, an even more specific subject for another time. Your point is valid and noted.

No one can continuously add strength every week. A novice can do it. An early intermediate can do it. The more advanced trainee requires more complex programming with slower increases in strength.

Visit some journals sometime and see for yourself (inside joke of sorts ). There is one member who has a journal, and he's beaten several world records. The best part? He's around 50yrs old and weighs 220lbs. Journals can be most interesting .