Intermittent Fasting for Strength Training and Fat Loss - Part Two

[DJohnson]

Not sure what the broscientists take on keto and energy levels are but I know I'm not the only one who actually performs better in deep state of ketosis.

Seconded. I feel great on keto. Warm, energetic, etc. and better yet my appetite is gone. It's not magic but it's a great tool to have available.

[ateimoori]

Hey, so I recently discovered IF. Works great with my lifestyle so I'm giving it a go. Have read alot on LG site but just have a question still. I'm currently training 5x a week. Chest, back,shoulders+traps, legs, arms. Each get a seperate day. So now I'm transitioning into this which is train every 3 days with deads, squats and bench being your mains. Going to start today with deads and chin ups. Now my question is, for the other 2 days, what have you guys found is best to use as your alternate exercises. Maybe toss a calf raise with the bench or tri extensions with squats? That kind of thing. Just looking to see what people have found works for them best. And also if anyone trains Differently than every 3 days.
Appreciate the responses!

[DBee]

Hey, so I recently discovered IF. Works great with my lifestyle so I'm giving it a go. Have read alot on LG site but just have a question still. I'm currently training 5x a week. Chest, back,shoulders+traps, legs, arms. Each get a seperate day. So now I'm transitioning into this which is train every 3 days with deads, squats and bench being your mains. Going to start today with deads and chin ups. Now my question is, for the other 2 days, what have you guys found is best to use as your alternate exercises. Maybe toss a calf raise with the bench or tri extensions with squats? That kind of thing. Just looking to see what people have found works for them best. And also if anyone trains Differently than every 3 days.
Appreciate the responses!

Core work, calf work, or any other lagging body parts. I do full body 3x a week as well. On my off days I either take reg yoga, hot yoga or pilates. Sometimes I sprint hills, other times I'll go on a 25+ mile run. I like to switch it up. I wouldn't get too logistical with it. Make it fun and something you will stick with.

[vitornoob]

Hey guys, started IF yesterday and have a few questions...
I was running a traditional cut before and now down to around 9%.. I'm planning on doing a body recomp so eating at +20% training days -20% off days...
Question is how should i adjust my calories from the cut I was on? I was 20% under maintenance every day, so should I eat at maintenance on training days and stay -20% on off days for a few weeks? Or just go straight to +20%/-20%...

calories for the week is what matters, if you want to do a recomp, or you eat the same calories every day, like eating at maintance, or changing calories, eating more WO and less OFF days and you will get a small surplus or deficit at the end of the week...

just do the math and you are fine

[Animal-S]

calories for the week is what matters, if you want to do a recomp, or you eat the same calories every day, like eating at maintance, or changing calories, eating more WO and less OFF days and you will get a small surplus or deficit at the end of the week...

just do the math and you are fine

I understand that calories for the week is what matters but you didnt really answer my question..
Should I eat at maintenance for a week or 2 before going onto a recomp, or can I jump straight into eating at +20%ON/-20%OFF since Im coming off a cut?

[Northernmoris]

I understand that calories for the week is what matters but you didnt really answer my question..
Should I eat at maintenance for a week or 2 before going onto a recomp, or can I jump straight into eating at +20%ON/-20%OFF since Im coming off a cut?

Jump on in.

[vitornoob]

I understand that calories for the week is what matters but you didnt really answer my question..
Should I eat at maintenance for a week or 2 before going onto a recomp, or can I jump straight into eating at +20%ON/-20%OFF since Im coming off a cut?

Do not jump into it, your maintance it is not the same as before the cut, do first a reverse dieting to reach the previous maintance and then cycle calories
Try adding 10-20g CHO and 5-10g fat per week untill you reach the previous maintance
The reverse diet should take the half time from your cut, if it lasted 3 months, your reverse diet should last 1.5
Or you can simply jump into your recomp and gain unnecessary fat since your maintance is not the same

Good luck

[GreatestEver]

So what do you guys think is the fastest rate at which I can cut on IF without losing strength and muscle mass? Is 1kg a week possible?

Last time I was on it I was doing about 0.5kg a week and was gaining strength if anything. That was with eating maintenance on workout days and a deficit on other days. However if I am trying to lose 1kg a week and eating maintenance on workout days, it would require a big deficit on non workout days. And if I had a deficit on workout days I think that would make it harder to maintain strength.

[ddewi]

So what do you guys think is the fastest rate at which I can cut on IF without losing strength and muscle mass? Is 1kg a week possible?

Last time I was on it I was doing about 0.5kg a week and was gaining strength if anything. That was with eating maintenance on workout days and a deficit on other days. However if I am trying to lose 1kg a week and eating maintenance on workout days, it would require a big deficit on non workout days. And if I had a deficit on workout days I think that would make it harder to maintain strength.

how much do weight?
i am on maintenance calories from the first time i do IF, it was 8 months ago or so. i weigh almost the same but my muscles are absolutely much more defined, so is my strength.

IIRC Martin once tweeted the average max fat people can lose per week is ~0.7% BW.

[QT]

So apparently IF raises blood pressure significantly. Something I should be worried about?

[mrivera11]

So apparently IF raises blood pressure significantly. Something I should be worried about?

Ugh, who said this???

Since IF, my BP has never been so steady...

[Animal-S]

Do not jump into it, your maintance it is not the same as before the cut, do first a reverse dieting to reach the previous maintance and then cycle calories
Try adding 10-20g CHO and 5-10g fat per week untill you reach the previous maintance
The reverse diet should take the half time from your cut, if it lasted 3 months, your reverse diet should last 1.5
Or you can simply jump into your recomp and gain unnecessary fat since your maintance is not the same

Good luck

Get you bud, thanks alot

[maltanarchy]

Do you guys do cardio? or Only focus on lifts? I think I read that Martin says off days are for recovery. I'm trying to recomp or even slow bulk. Right now I am not doing cardio, I haven't been for a month or maybe 6 weeks. Should I be?

[GreatestEver]

Do you guys do cardio? or Only focus on lifts? I think I read that Martin says off days are for recovery. I'm trying to recomp or even slow bulk. Right now I am not doing cardio, I haven't been for a month or maybe 6 weeks. Should I be?

Dont do cardio, it takes away from recovery time after lifting

[GreatestEver]

how much do weight?
i am on maintenance calories from the first time i do IF, it was 8 months ago or so. i weigh almost the same but my muscles are absolutely much more defined, so is my strength.

IIRC Martin once tweeted the average max fat people can lose per week is ~0.7% BW.

I weight about 88kg, but I am like 20% bodyfat at least, and frim what I know being higher bf means you can lose weight quicker with losing less muscle.

[ddewi]

So apparently IF raises blood pressure significantly. Something I should be worried about?

AFAIK any IF approaches may promote healthier blood pressure.
what is your blood pressure? does it raise only when you're on IF?

Do you guys do cardio? or Only focus on lifts? I think I read that Martin says off days are for recovery. I'm trying to recomp or even slow bulk. Right now I am not doing cardio, I haven't been for a month or maybe 6 weeks. Should I be?

Dont do cardio, it takes away from recovery time after lifting

i happen to be a believer of low intensity cardio for general health and fitness. yes, it might take away from recovery time. well IMO make sure you eat well, train effectively and perhaps avoid cardio after weight training.

[thook44]

This weekend will be a full week of IF for me. I'm just giving feedback here, but.....

So far, I'm down to 178lbs (5'7ft). A bit more definition in arms, legs, face, and torso. Veins and obliques are starting to show. This stuff is great. Not working out yet, but recovery time from heavy, daily labor has increased dramatically. As well, not nearly so fatigued at the end of the day.

Yesterday, I'd cut up half a 40ft tree and had it all handsplit in under a couple of hours. Got back to the house, broke my fast with a high protein meal and for the first time ever in my life I could feel my muscles kinda of "grow and fill up" somewhere over an hour after the meal. Mind you, this wasn't something psycho****tic because I honestly wasn't looking for it. Honestly. I just noticed a subtle shift, as it were, and recalled one of Martin's articles addressing protein synthesis and the metabolic ( or is it anabolic?) window. Pretty neat stuff.

[maltanarchy]

Dont do cardio, it takes away from recovery time after lifting

i happen to be a believer of low intensity cardio for general health and fitness. yes, it might take away from recovery time. well IMO make sure you eat well, train effectively and perhaps avoid cardio after weight training.

I don't know if I could stomach LISS. I spent the past year working up to things like jumping rope intervals (and mixing in double unders) and I also have been trying some of the YouTube vids by Jeff Cavalier / AthLEAN-X... (Not an endorsement)... And other types of conditioning drills.

I like my cardio intense.

So, for the moment I'm going keep cardio off my schedule for another few months. Maybe add it back in closer to spring.

Thanks guys

[AlwaysTryin]

This weekend will be a full week of IF for me. I'm just giving feedback here, but.....

So far, I'm down to 178lbs (5'7ft). A bit more definition in arms, legs, face, and torso. Veins and obliques are starting to show.

All from 1 week of IF?

[ChinoZ32]

Just because Martin advises against activities any greater than walking on your off days doesn't mean you have to do it. If he told you to eat sht because it would instantly reduce your body fat levels would you? If you have some hobby or sport, do it, don't let "rules" dictate these aspects of your life. Just ensure you are sleeping/resting accordingly and you adjust your nutrition (in this case protein to avoid muscle loss) to accommodate your lifestyle. I would assume Martin is only making an assumption that everyone is a lazy fck don't do cardio it's too much hard work etc. etc.. Stick to the basic principles, it really couldn't get any simpler. Simply adjust to suit you. As for cardio, I do more than just LISS on my non-tension days and apart from the article below that Lyle McDonald posted, I can attest that some sort of activity DOES in fact assist with recovery.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/mus...ass-gains.html

If you're lazy, and you have no intention of feeling fit and being strong. Go ahead, IF is one of many solution that works. It ain't magic but from experience it's just a "tool", one that I find easiest to work with indefinitely.

[thook44]

All from 1 week of IF?

Not quite...hehe. I'd posted a page back stating a week before I started IF I'd simply begun balancing my macros and caloric intake. So, I didn't mean to imply it's all from IF, but I will say emphatically I'm seeing more marked improvements healthwise from IF over the prior week. Pains I've had from beating my body over the years are disappearing, my skin is "youthing", my long hair is growing again (note I attribute that mostly to the fact I've eating more protein than I ever have in years), I'm hydrating better, my energy levels up, mental acuity is up, etc, etc.

So, really, it's all in the past two weeks I'm noticing the changes, but it really seems accelerated by IF....particularly the muscle definition, veins, and obliques. Nothing real pronounced, mind you, but I'm starting to see the body I have beneath the fat.....something I haven't seen in years. Twenty years, to be exact. Except now I have more muscle mass than I did then. Twenty years ago I was 135lbs and 12% BF. I'm probably around 20% BF, now, judging by the info and photos on this site.

Anyway, enough of that. Not sure where I'll end up, but I sure am looking forward to lifting weights again after all these years.

[QT]

I am out of BCAA and I don't think I can get time to buy a new box today. Should I just go a head and workout this one day without BCAA anyways? Fasted.

[maltanarchy]

I am out of BCAA and I don't think I can get time to buy a new box today. Should I just go a head and workout this one day without BCAA anyways? Fasted.

Being out of BCAA can't possibly be a good enough reason to skip a workout.

There is a lot of debate if BCAAs do much of anything. I personally don't do BCAAs, because when I did the math according to lean gains it seemed like I'd blow through a tub of XTend once a month. Sorry, but I'm too cheap. By looking at my avatar and stats, you'd probably say I'm a skinny wimp and that you should do the opposite of what I say.... hahaha

Don't take my word on this:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...#post776030463
There are about 5 posts in a row talking about BCAAs. And the beast we are talking about is Manu “The Freak Show” Grewal. Look him up here if you haven't heard him before.

Also, there is an article about BCAAs with some heavy hitters in the nutrition/bodybuilding field... and even they can't agree: http://www.elitefts.com/documents/bcaa.htm

I'm not telling you to skip the BCAA permanently, I'm telling you not to skip the workout... Unless... Maybe if something is broken or if you are dead.

[maltanarchy]

Just because Martin advises against activities any greater than walking on your off days doesn't mean you have to do it. If he told you to eat sht because it would instantly reduce your body fat levels would you? If you have some hobby or sport, do it, don't let "rules" dictate these aspects of your life. Just ensure you are sleeping/resting accordingly and you adjust your nutrition (in this case protein to avoid muscle loss) to accommodate your lifestyle. I would assume Martin is only making an assumption that everyone is a lazy fck don't do cardio it's too much hard work etc. etc.. Stick to the basic principles, it really couldn't get any simpler. Simply adjust to suit you. As for cardio, I do more than just LISS on my non-tension days and apart from the article below that Lyle McDonald posted, I can attest that some sort of activity DOES in fact assist with recovery.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/mus...ass-gains.html

If you're lazy, and you have no intention of feeling fit and being strong. Go ahead, IF is one of many solution that works. It ain't magic but from experience it's just a "tool", one that I find easiest to work with indefinitely.

I'm going to read that article, I bookmarked on my phone and I'll do that when I'm "working" today.

I actually was willing to try giving up cardio because I thought it may have been the reason I stalled on some of my lifts last cycle. Maybe it wasn't. It's only been about 5 weeks since I did cardio. Also too, part of the reason that I was willing to try giving up cardio for a while was because my shoulder is still not 100% from my RC injury the beginning of this year. I've been cleared by my ART therapist (and the Ortho never thought it was a big deal), and I really have no problems. I found that lifting M-W-F and then cardio Tu-Th and sometimes Sat was causing irritation by the end of the week. I said I like my cardio on the intense side, and I was doing too much pushups/burpee type stuff on my cardio days.

And no, I don't think Martin's word is gospel... Unless maybe he's subscribed to this thread... lol... I thought I read it in other places that cardio on off days may hurt your recovery. I haven't been off of cardio too long, and I was just changing things up a bit. I'm certainly not lazy (anymore). I tell my wife and friends "the fat and lazy me had a heart attack and died while eating two strombolis back in 2010"... That's kinda referring to the a local pizza place and at the time in my life when I finally said enough is enough and decided to finally lose weight. (I haven't ever had a heart attack). The fact that you said lazy makes me want to do cardio right now! Thanks for your input, and your avatar speaks the truth that you know what you are doing (even if the pic is borderline p0rn)! I'll consider adding cardio back in when I finish my current lifting cycle. I just don't want my cardio to stall any of my presses.

And as for Martin's word, I think his protein recommendations are crazy through the roof. Something like triple of what is the bodybuilding standard? Just saying that I don't hang on every word... that's all.

Thanks again!

[thook44]

What confuses me a bit, about all the BCAA claims of possible necessity and/or advantage during the fasted workout, is the fact that AA's are still floating about in the system from the last meal. I say fact, but it's what I recall reading from Martin and Alan articles. IOW's, if one still has AA's in the system from the lengthy digestion of high protein foods, why would anyone need extra? For the average joe, atleast. Maybe someone highly competitive with high demands like BB's or pro athletes could use it. I don't know.

[determined4000]

Just because Martin advises against activities any greater than walking on your off days doesn't mean you have to do it. If he told you to eat sht because it would instantly reduce your body fat levels would you? If you have some hobby or sport, do it, don't let "rules" dictate these aspects of your life. Just ensure you are sleeping/resting accordingly and you adjust your nutrition (in this case protein to avoid muscle loss) to accommodate your lifestyle. I would assume Martin is only making an assumption that everyone is a lazy fck don't do cardio it's too much hard work etc. etc.. Stick to the basic principles, it really couldn't get any simpler. Simply adjust to suit you. As for cardio, I do more than just LISS on my non-tension days and apart from the article below that Lyle McDonald posted, I can attest that some sort of activity DOES in fact assist with recovery.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/mus...ass-gains.html

If you're lazy, and you have no intention of feeling fit and being strong. Go ahead, IF is one of many solution that works. It ain't magic but from experience it's just a "tool", one that I find easiest to work with indefinitely.

believe dat

[ChinoZ32]

I'm going to read that article, I bookmarked on my phone and I'll do that when I'm "working" today.

I actually was willing to try giving up cardio because I thought it may have been the reason I stalled on some of my lifts last cycle. Maybe it wasn't. It's only been about 5 weeks since I did cardio. Also too, part of the reason that I was willing to try giving up cardio for a while was because my shoulder is still not 100% from my RC injury the beginning of this year. I've been cleared by my ART therapist (and the Ortho never thought it was a big deal), and I really have no problems. I found that lifting M-W-F and then cardio Tu-Th and sometimes Sat was causing irritation by the end of the week. I said I like my cardio on the intense side, and I was doing too much pushups/burpee type stuff on my cardio days.

And no, I don't think Martin's word is gospel... Unless maybe he's subscribed to this thread... lol... I thought I read it in other places that cardio on off days may hurt your recovery. I haven't been off of cardio too long, and I was just changing things up a bit. I'm certainly not lazy (anymore). I tell my wife and friends "the fat and lazy me had a heart attack and died while eating two strombolis back in 2010"... That's kinda referring to the a local pizza place and at the time in my life when I finally said enough is enough and decided to finally lose weight. (I haven't ever had a heart attack). The fact that you said lazy makes me want to do cardio right now! Thanks for your input, and your avatar speaks the truth that you know what you are doing (even if the pic is borderline p0rn)! I'll consider adding cardio back in when I finish my current lifting cycle. I just don't want my cardio to stall any of my presses.

And as for Martin's word, I think his protein recommendations are crazy through the roof. Something like triple of what is the bodybuilding standard? Just saying that I don't hang on every word... that's all.

Thanks again!

No worries mate I wasn't having a go either. I am appreciative of what Martin has done as it's just a reminder how how us humans used to be, how we looked, fit and I doubt we ate breakfast, morning tea, lunch, afternoon tea, dinner, etc etc. I am also appreciative of what Lyle McDonald's done, for he has been most informative and he has also given mention to IF, which is how I found out about it. Good luck!

[maltanarchy]

No worries mate I wasn't having a go either. I am appreciative of what Martin has done as it's just a reminder how how us humans used to be, how we looked, fit and I doubt we ate breakfast, morning tea, lunch, afternoon tea, dinner, etc etc. I am also appreciative of what Lyle McDonald's done, for he has been most informative and he has also given mention to IF, which is how I found out about it. Good luck!

I has some down time yesterday cause kids were napping and wife was doing online college... I did some various calestentic type cardio. It felt good. Didn't know I missed it.

[Todash]

I've been on IF for over a month now, it's like second nature now. I dieted down pretty hardcore this year on the standard 6-meal a day stuff and it worked but it certainly wasn't fun. I was 292 in Jan. I'm 217 now, somewhere around 20% if my scale is to be believed. I was on 1800 offday / 2300 on and the fat was flying off. I don't have much in the way of lean mass though so I'm giving a surplus a try and doing allpro's beginner routine. I'm going with 3500 / off 4500-5000 on which seems very high to me but seems to be working well so far. I'm going to monitor my waistline and taper the calories back if it gets too out of hand.

The funny thing is I've been training fasted the whole time heh. No bcaas until I read martins website. I've always hated breakfast, it messed with my stomach. It seems way easier to lose weight than gain mass though. I'm up to the challenge tho!
I read this whole thread before posting. Thanks Martin, Chino, sportyaccordy and others for your input it's really been helpful.

[JuanF11]

I have been using IF for about 5 months now. It started out similar to the warrior diet (training twice a day with 3 small meals interspersed then one large meal at the end of the day) and developed into extending my fast into a 16/8 eating window with the largest meal post-workout. I trained 5-6 days a week usually twice a day for four of those days. My average session lasted an hour (sometimes 1:30) and shortest usually 30 mins. I did not count calories but made sure that I ate roughly 1.2-1.5 g protein/kg body weight and filled in the rest of my calories with carbohydrates and fats. I ate relatively "clean" foods (lots of veggies, black beans, tuna, chicken, sushi, almond butter, honey, bananas) but noticed no difference after consuming sweets or burgers after breaking my fast. Here's what I noticed after 5 months for anyone interested:

Physical

• Noticeable decrease in bodyfat % and increase in vascularity
• I lost about 10 pounds(190-180) and have regained about 5 pounds with very little fat mass
• Lost strength at the beginning but seem to be regaining (probably due to the loss of weight)
• One of the biggest downsides was having chronically cold feet and hands.
  I'm talking about having" two pairs of socks on underneath three blankets still cold" feet. I found out this is due to low levels of thyroid hormone.
• I did cardio 3-4 times a week (mix between sprints and long duration elliptical) and noticed an improvement in cardiovascular performance (could be due to weight loss)

Mental

• Significant increase in appetite control (sometimes to the point where I'm not hungry)
• Great focus on computation tasks (math, reading, chem problems)
• BIG downside was that I couldn't hold a conversation with anyone after fasting. I would mix up words and have to think extremely hard about the point I was trying to express to not sound like a complete idiot.
• I have more energy while doing physical tasks but very sleepy at beginning/end of day. However, if I fasted all day until the afternoon there was a much higher chance I would take a nap and not have the energy to workout. Would be hard to wake up on time in the mornings and go to sleep relatively eary.

Effectiveness

• Very effective at lowering bodyfat %
• I personally had a greater fat loss with this kind of diet compared to restricted calories and standard carb cycling

Long term feasibility

• I am transitioning into a gaining phase and will probably have a couple days a week of 16/8 fasting
• I found it very hard to be social while fasting and this was a major drawback
• The longest I have "dieted" was a couple months, this was the longest I had adhered to a dieting protocol
• Fasting long term might lower thyroid hormone (which could translate to a lowering of testosterone) but this could occur to a lesser extent with calorie restricted diets

In conclusion: IF was effective for fat loss, great for long term feasibility, great for appetite control, negligible for strength gain, terrible for people who have to be social for their jobs etc, and was a good experience. I will be altering my plan to accommodate my transition in goal (gaining) but will probably include a 16/8 fast on a couple of the days. Once again, it is about finding what works best for you and sticking with it. If worked great for me but it could yield extremely different results for others.

In conclusion