Ecto Legs and High Reps!

[Geneticssuck]

I have had it.

I have never been able to get my legs to grow. There is only one thing I have not really tried and that is High Reps.

Why? Because I have always been able to Bench more than I can Squat! What does that tell me? It tells me that my legs are NOT going to respond to low reps and super heavy weight so STOP IT!

I have done a ton of reading on fiber make up but the one thing that pushed me to try high reps (25-50 a set) is this:

Most bodybuilders and fitness enthusiasts trying to gain weight fast are always told that in order to gain muscle mass they should stick to heavy weights for low reps.

This weight training myth stems from many believing that ?heavy weights for low reps? are for ?size?, and that ?light weights for high reps? are for ?endurance?.

Well, nothing could be further from the truth.


As a matter of fact, if gaining muscle weight is a challenge for you, heavy sets with low reps could be a huge mistake.

Why do I say this?


Well, the European Journal of Applied Physiology posted some research done on how different gene-types in the body responds to different workout routines, based on sets, weight, and reps.

What they discovered was significant.


First off, there are basically two different kinds of gene make-ups for every individual:

1) ACE II


2) ACE DD


In one of the studies conducted, scientists took 99 weight trainers and placed them on two types of workout routines:

? One workout program was made up of multiple sets for high reps and lighter weight (reps were in the 12-15 per set).

? The other workout routine was made up of multiple sets for low reps with heavier weight (reps were in the 8-12 per set).

What they found was that the weight trainers that had a harder time gaining weight and muscle had predominantly ACE II genes.

These individuals responded great to the higher reps for lighter weight program.

Yet, when following the lower reps for heavier weight routine, they made no progress at all in terms of building muscle mass.

Sure, they may have gotten stronger, but we?re focusing on gaining muscle weight and size, not strength.

(No, size and strength don?t go hand in hand, as many would have you believe. Which is a huge reason why most natural bodybuilders / fitness enthusiasts never truly achieve their goals. They get stronger, but not bigger. Is this the case with you??)

One of the reasons for why higher rep training is much better for those that are predominantly ACE II is because they have greater tissue oxygenation, which can elevate contracting of the heart and skeletal tissue.

More reasons why higher reps are better than lower rep for heavy weights to gain weight fast:

? The high volume of blood forced through the veins and arteries while working out with high reps will carry with it important muscle building nutrients to feed the training muscles.

? High rep training enhances capillary density (the thickness of the capillaries within the muscle).

? High rep training increases the diameter (size) of the blood vessels within the muscle.

? High rep training stimulates the formation of new blood vessels.

?..all of which are responsible for making your muscles bigger in size and mass.

(Hey, isn?t that what you?re after in the first place????)

Leave the heavy weights for low reps to the powerlifters.

To read more proof on why most of what is recommended to gain weight fast is the wrong way, check out Jonathan Perez's workout site at http://www.FromSkinnyToMuscular.com/articles.html

Article Source: http://EzineArticles.com/?expert=Jonathan_Perez


This is an issue I first saw discussed in IronMan mag a year ago or so and it peaked my interest but then I got fished right back into the low reps/high weight camp again and struggled ever since.

I am currently doing full body workouts, alternating Heavy and Light days (although the light days were still in the 12 rep range) training just shy of failure, 3 sets per body part Heavy days, 2 sets on Light days. Legs have been hit with just 1 excercise (Squats or Deadlifts) and are simply not improving at all. I really, really, really do not give a **** how much I can squat so I am going to work in some sets of 25-50 reps.

Question is, do I throw a third day of training in for JUST legs or do I make the light day my super high rep day?

[jgreystoke]

Interesting stuff.

I wouldn't be too anal about theory, however.

If your legs are not progressing, I'm not surprised. If the weight you are squatting is much less than what you are benching........you need to add poundage to those squats relentlessly........no matter what the rep range.
If you don't train progressively, squatting a fair bit more weight this year than last year, how the hell can you expect to have bigger wheels.

8-12 reps ain't low reps in my book. But they are a great rep range.

Of course you don't have to train like a powerlifter. You don't even have to know your one rep max. I don't, most exercises, except what the profile calculator estimates, and I'm into strength as well as size.

But your best 5 rep or 10 rep poundage SHOULD be of concern. If your best poundage in the squat is way behind your bench, you are not working your wheels strongly enough........no matter what your chosen rep range.

I'd definitly agree that legs really respond to higher reps. The classic size for thighs(and whole body) program was the 20 rep squat cycle, done rest pause style to allow really heavy weights. The weight you can handle for 10 continuous reps, which might be 75% of one rep max, is a weight you would probably manage for a whopping 20 reps, if you take a few deep breaths between each rep.

Another way to keep the total reps high(volume) while using heavy weight is the good ol' set system, which we bbers have been using for most of a century.

Want 30+reps?

Well a set of 30+ continuous reps will probably have too low an intensity to stimulate much growth. Probably a waste. The intensity is probably less than 50% for most trainees. For example, I used to have very small legs. Even when I was able to do 200 rep sets of free squats, I didn't have big thighs, 'cos the intensity was too damn low, though the volume was out of sight.

But 3 sets x 10 reps, or 6x6 or even 10x3 will allow you to use intensities that are for most trainees, roughly in the range of 70-85% of one rep max. This should be ideal for size. You'll also.......gulp, get much stronger as well. Just keep adding a little iron regularly.

If you want to do say 25 reps for the squat, make them rest pause style. If they are continuous reps, do a much heavier set or two of say 10 first, and then do a pumping set of high reps. So high total reps in your work sets(volume) should NOT mean light weight.

Train progressively in your favourite rep range, do enough total reps, add a calorie surplus, grow dem legs.

I usually do full body and alternate squat and goodmorning every second day. Thus squat mon, gm wed, squat fri, gm mon etc. 'Course you could devote a full days session to legs.

Best of luck whatever you decide to do.

[Geneticssuck]

Good food for thought there.

I wonder though if the % of intensity (relative to 1 rep max) is really that important. I am just searching for a better way, period.

More stuff:


Baylor University just conducted a study, which some have referenced it as “Resistance exercise intensity does not differentially affect skeletal muscle myostatin gene expression but does increase serum myostatin propeptide levels.”.

In this study, they took a group of weight trainers and had them go through several leg workouts.

What they did was perform exercises like the leg press and the leg extension.

However, they did each exercise 1 leg at a time.

For both legs they had them perform the same amount of sets and exercises, but on one leg they had them perform sets of 6 reps, and the other leg sets of 20 reps.

The scientists then took blood samples and muscle biopsies of each leg after every workout training session.

What did they find?

They discovered that the leg that performed the sets of 6 reps (low reps / heavier weight) had 3 times higher the amount of myostatin than the leg that performed sets of 20 reps (high reps / lighter weight).

“What’s myostatin?”, you may be asking.

Myostatin is a protein that limits the amount of growth in muscle tissue and fibers.

The higher the amount of myostatin in a muscle, the less amount of size it can gain.

So, obviously, if gaining weight and building muscle mass is our goal, myostatin is our enemy.

We don’t want raised levels of this protein!

So, according to this study, training with heavier weights for lower reps raises the levels of myostatin in the muscle being trained 3 times higher than lower weight for higher reps, resulting in limited growth.

And, let’s be honest here. Chances are that if you are bodybuilder / weight trainer, and are reading this article and site, then your main goal is to build muscle fast.

Yet, following the myth that heavy weight for low reps is for mass could be exactly why you may not be seeing the results in the mirror that you were hoping for.

(Make an honest evaluation of your current workout routine, take a look at your own physique, and see if this is the case with you).

This is also another probable reason why powerlifters and Olympic lifters (which train with heavy weights for low reps) don’t have anywhere near the type of muscular development that a bodybuilder has.

Remember, we’re talking about building muscle mass and gaining weight naturally, not strength.

Guess high reps isn’t the bad guy after all.



Sincerely,

Jonathan Perez
Cleveland Firefighter
Certified ACE / IAFF / IAFC Firefighter Peer Fitness Trainer

[Geneticssuck]

Interesting stuff.

I wouldn't be too anal about theory, however.

If your legs are not progressing, I'm not surprised. If the weight you are squatting is much less than what you are benching........you need to add poundage to those squats relentlessly........no matter what the rep range.
If you don't train progressively, squatting a fair bit more weight this year than last year, how the hell can you expect to have bigger wheels.

8-12 reps ain't low reps in my book. But they are a great rep range.

Of course you don't have to train like a powerlifter. You don't even have to know your one rep max. I don't, most exercises, except what the profile calculator estimates, and I'm into strength as well as size.

But your best 5 rep or 10 rep poundage SHOULD be of concern. If your best poundage in the squat is way behind your bench, you are not working your wheels strongly enough........no matter what your chosen rep range.

I'd definitly agree that legs really respond to higher reps. The classic size for thighs(and whole body) program was the 20 rep squat cycle, done rest pause style to allow really heavy weights. The weight you can handle for 10 continuous reps, which might be 75% of one rep max, is a weight you would probably manage for a whopping 20 reps, if you take a few deep breaths between each rep.

Another way to keep the total reps high(volume) while using heavy weight is the good ol' set system, which we bbers have been using for most of a century.

Want 30+reps?

Well a set of 30+ continuous reps will probably have too low an intensity to stimulate much growth. Probably a waste. The intensity is probably less than 50% for most trainees. For example, I used to have very small legs. Even when I was able to do 200 rep sets of free squats, I didn't have big thighs, 'cos the intensity was too damn low, though the volume was out of sight.

But 3 sets x 10 reps, or 6x6 or even 10x3 will allow you to use intensities that are for most trainees, roughly in the range of 70-85% of one rep max. This should be ideal for size. You'll also.......gulp, get much stronger as well. Just keep adding a little iron regularly.

If you want to do say 25 reps for the squat, make them rest pause style. If they are continuous reps, do a much heavier set or two of say 10 first, and then do a pumping set of high reps. So high total reps in your work sets(volume) should NOT mean light weight.

Train progressively in your favourite rep range, do enough total reps, add a calorie surplus, grow dem legs.

I usually do full body and alternate squat and goodmorning every second day. Thus squat mon, gm wed, squat fri, gm mon etc. 'Course you could devote a full days session to legs.

Best of luck whatever you decide to do.

Sorry, are you doing a special leg day? Or are you just alternating the leg excercise each workout.

Are you saying that its total volume rather than the number of reps per set?

My reading of this "ACE II" gene stuff is that the actual reps per set should be "high" (12-20) but if the total intensity still has to be high this would mean that I would be doing beyond failure training which I am a little wary of.

Finally, if I do go for a rest pause style on the squats , can I do this twice a week and if so how many sets?

[jdmalm123]

What's your leg routine? You only mention squats. Just like a strong back will assist bench, a strong posterior chain will help the squats and leg mass.

When I got serious about deadlifts, I immediately added leg mass and had been doing squats all along (also had really small legs to start). Also, I recently began going ATG and it made a difference as well. A deeper squat will force some new development.

Changing the rep range should be a given. One day you'll stop responding to higher reps and it will be time again for heavy/low rep...

[jgreystoke]

I wonder though if the % of intensity (relative to 1 rep max) is really that important. I am just searching for a better way, period.

Yes it really is important. I wasn't kidding about the 200 rep bodyweight squats. The intensity was far to low to give me big wheels.

This is also another probable reason why powerlifters and Olympic lifters (which train with heavy weights for low reps) don?t have anywhere near the type of muscular development that a bodybuilder has.

You're kidding me. Powerlifters and oly lifters who want to keep to a weight class, CONTROL THEIR CALORIE INTAKE, to avoid getting too big.

Unlimited lifters and strongmen are the biggest and most muscular people in the world. They don't look as muscular as pumped and oiled bodybuilders on the stage, 'cos they are not as worried by bodyfat. But if you saw them close up, they are bigger. If you put say Magnus Samuelson, all 6'6" and 350lbs of him at 15% bodyfat on the stage with bodybuilders, he'd make most of them look like children. You wouldn't believe the weights claimed by bodybuilders anymore.

Lifters weights quoted are actual, measured before competition. The weight quoted by pro bbers is usually exaggerated by what I call the 10% rule, as are all the measurements, except waist, of course, which is reduced 10%. I suspect Dennis Wolf, who was robbed in the Olympia, gave his correct weight 250lbs. He was more massive than guys CLAIMING much bigger bodyweights.

Just while we're at it, Arthur Jones measured the arms of all the top bbers of his era COLD, to humble them. Only Sergio Oliva's were over 20". Arnies were 19.5, despite his claim of 22.5. Guess arnie believed in the 15% rule. Just to put that into perspective, Manfred Hoerbels arms are 25.5". This 330lb monster is a worlds strongest man winner. He built them up to this humungous size by lots of sets of LOW REPS, for biceps, 330lb curls, fairly strict. Now that's high enough intensity, and the TOTAL reps high enough without using low weight high rep stuff. His arms are bigger than any bodybuilder's.

All the biggest freakiest bodybuilders are also usually the strongest. They aren't usually competing in the lifts, but are very strong in all the big basic moves in everyone's profile over the goals. None of them only bench 2 wheels, for example.

Remember, we?re talking about building muscle mass and gaining weight naturally, not strength.

The best way to gain that mass is to make the body realize it must build bigger muscles in response to an increased demand. This means more weight(load) and more total reps(volume). Throw in enough recovery, and a calorie surplus, and you have discovered the ........shhhhhh......secret of size.

When we are benching and rowing 3, squatting 4, and deadlifting 5 plates for a few reps, full range of motion, raw barbell lifts, none of us will be small believe me, 'less we have insane genetics.

[jgreystoke]

Sorry, are you doing a special leg day? Or are you just alternating the leg excercise each workout.

No, I train full body. I don't know yet how to give you the link. Look at the thread.... "What Did You Do Today, Training-Wise".... to see my program. Since I'm an abbreviated training fan, it might raise a few eyebrows, but I want to be a monster.

Are you saying that its total volume rather than the number of reps per set?

Absolutely. Most of my size is from ramping sets of 5 'til this year. But I've started to grow again, 'cos I'm doing multiple sets to up the volume, while keeping the intensity high enough. Not doing light weights at all. Champion marathon runners are doing thousands of reps at low intensity. Their legs are neither big nor strong.

My reading of this "ACE II" gene stuff is that the actual reps per set should be "high" (12-20) but if the total intensity still has to be high this would mean that I would be doing beyond failure training which I am a little wary of.

Rest pause would have you doing very high intensity compared to what you could do continuous reps. If you deload between each rep, you could do say a thirty rep set, taking a few deep breaths between each rep. Might be overkill, and difficult to recover from.

Finally, if I do go for a rest pause style on the squats , can I do this twice a week and if so how many sets?

We are all different. Twenty rep rest pause squats are legendary, and done for only one killer set. I'd do it once per week to start, say monday, and do an overlapping exercise such as a deadlift or goodmorning on friday. You might progress more if you did squat mon, fri, wed, mon, etc, hitting it every 4-5 days like I do at the moment. I'd still alternate them with goodmornings(my favourite) which feel like a rest compared to the high volume squats.

If your recovery is much better you might do them mon/fri. I'd still throw in a hamstring dominant dead or goodmorning in one of the sessions, AFTER the squat. Not safe to squat after fatiguing the lumbars so much before them with deads.

[jgreystoke]

I BETTER ADD THIS CAVEAT:

I don't think I have have enough conditioning for jumping into a serious 20 rep rest pause squat cycle yet. If I were you, I'd first do a cycle like I described in previous post, warmups, a heavy set of say ten, and then a down set of 20 continuous reps.

Best of both worlds, and you could probably keep it going much longer than a super squat/rest pause squat/breathing squat/mankiller squat/widowmaker squat cycle.

You'd likely find it much easier to add poundage, which will do wonders for your confidence......and you'll enjoy the benefits of getting stronger.

Remember size as a result of light pumping is mostly sarcoplasm(fluid). You shrivel during enforced layoffs. Responds very well to aas, which you shouldn't touch, but you lose it very quickly during clean cycles.

Size as a result of heavy weights(load) for enough total reps(volume) is mostly the result of the contractile(strength) elements of the muscles being bigger. You'll retain this size with a minimum of work.....even low volume. And you will lose hardly any during a layoff. Your muscles will be much harder and "denser", like a horse's flank.

[Kelei]

I employ the Tom Platz approach, squat till you drop.

[Geneticssuck]

Wow,thanks jgreystoke!

Tons of stuff that basically is confirming my commitment to the full body routine. I will be taking your suggestion about the leg workouts and put off the rest pause until I have a couple of cycles of a simple heavy/light day workout with the light day consisting of the set of 10 followed by the 20 rep set (continuous tension).

My upper body is really responding to this style of workout but my legs are tragic really. It is almost to the point where I am wondering if I should just drop a few upper body sets and concentrate on legs each workout---my fantasy is to not be embarrassed to wear shorts next summer!

Again, many thanks for your feedback.

[Guns_MacGruder]

Tall ecto here, high rep squats have helped me a ton. I dunno if they would be optimal for a beginning ecto, but once I plateaud on squats I knew I had to do something different. It's funny how my squats didn't improve at all for 2-3 months, then once I started adding 20 reppers it shot up 50 lbs in 4 months. I have no idea if the extra repititions made me more accustomed to the movement or that they just build more muscle. Either way I don't care, it worked.