Depletion workout.

[steven.alex]

When you do the full body depletion workout prior to a carb up what exactly are you depleting? I thought all the glycogen would be thoroughly depleted long before this workout comes along.

[Minotaur]

I think it's the final push and depleting the last of the glycogen reserves.

[FitnessJunkie]

I think depending on how hard you workout an the intensity levels of your workouts during the week will dictate your "depletion workout". However agreed that it will/should deplete what's left in your stores.

[Eileen]

If you've been really kicking ass in the gym during the week, the depletion could be over in less than half an hour. If you've been cutting yourself some slack, it could take over an hour.

[rubes00]

if you workout say one body part a day (chest,bis/tris,legs,shoulders,back) do you actually have to do a full body depletion or can your last day (mine is back on saturday) be your depletion workout?

[Atavis]

You do not have to do a depletion workout, but if you don't I would rotate the part that gets worked out right before the carbup.

[Eileen]

if you workout say one body part a day (chest,bis/tris,legs,shoulders,back) do you actually have to do a full body depletion or can your last day (mine is back on saturday) be your depletion workout?

You could do a sort of combination workout, where you do back first, then spend another half hour torturing all your other body parts afterwards.

[rubes00]

You could do a sort of combination workout, where you do back first, then spend another half hour torturing all your other body parts afterwards.

oh ya that would be a good idea.... just to fully deplete everything.

[Druluv75]

The depletion work out is a good fat burning work out, the circuit style workout probably burns more fat than cardio because it produces so much lactate acid. Vince Gironda used this type of workouts to get actors and actresses in quick shape before movies. As long as you keep the rest between exercises very short you may even get a good release of growth hormone from this work out.

[FitnessJunkie]

The depletion work out is a good fat burning work out, the circuit style workout probably burns more fat than cardio because it produces so much lactate acid. Vince Gironda used this type of workouts to get actors and actresses in quick shape before movies. As long as you keep the rest between exercises very short you may even get a good release of growth hormone from this work out.

Oh yeah...the burn...oh the burn! Haha I love that feeling of a total body workout at high intensity. My muscles are screamin' at me

[SumthinOrNuthin]

steven.alex, I like you, you're asking all the questions that are in my head

Can anyone answer the one about how long it does actually take to deplete? Maybe I'm being dim but I assumed that if you were in ketosis, then you must be depleted. Is that too simple?

[steven.alex]

steven.alex, I like you, you're asking all the questions that are in my head

Can anyone answer the one about how long it does actually take to deplete? Maybe I'm being dim but I assumed that if you were in ketosis, then you must be depleted. Is that too simple?

LOL. Thankyou though you really dont want a head like mine.

[Teacher77]

When you do the full body depletion workout prior to a carb up what exactly are you depleting? I thought all the glycogen would be thoroughly depleted long before this workout comes along.

If you worked out hard as hell, the glycogen might be already very low, but it shouldn't. For optimal results, you should bring the glycogen stores to some intermediate level at the beginning of the week, keep it there the whole week and deplete it on friday. The reason is that muscles tend to use fat as fuel when glycogen is at an intermediate level, while protein use gets higher if glycogen is fully depleted. So you don't want to fully deplete the stores during the week.

And you DO want to fully deplete them just before the carbup, because that will trigger supercompensation. But we're talking here about only a few minutes between depletion and massive carb intake.

[gfundaro]

IMO, the depletion workout should be called the Supercompensation-Ensuring Workout, but that's way too long! hehe. Ideally, you definitely should be depleted, well before the end of the week, or your carb-up really isn't necessary. The depletion--I'll call it the 'last'--workout actually benefits you in another way during your carbup. If you were just to do cardio, and not lift, before your carbup, you'd have a much lower chance of supercompensation and glycogen uptake. Your last workout actually increases the glycogen and protein uptake so you can supercompensate, or hold more glycogen than you would normally, because you lifted. And performing a whole-body workout allows for supercompensation of the whole body, rather than one part more than another. So now you see, they should really change the name

[PickItUp]

I've never heard of the depletion workout.

I usually try to get depleted by Tuesday...Monday is even better. I thought you needed to be depleted to get into ketosis?

So when I enter ketosis...I am not necessarily depleted? Am I just in a state where the glycogen is low enough to start ketosis?

Damn, this freaking diet gets more and more complicated everyday.

[gfundaro]

I've never heard of the depletion workout.

I usually try to get depleted by Tuesday...Monday is even better. I thought you needed to be depleted to get into ketosis?

So when I enter ketosis...I am not necessarily depleted? Am I just in a state where the glycogen is low enough to start ketosis?

Damn, this freaking diet gets more and more complicated everyday.

No no, you ARE depleted. Just read my post above and you'll see the Depletion Workout is actually something of a misnomer.

[Teacher77]

I've never heard of the depletion workout.

I usually try to get depleted by Tuesday...Monday is even better. I thought you needed to be depleted to get into ketosis?

So when I enter ketosis...I am not necessarily depleted? Am I just in a state where the glycogen is low enough to start ketosis?

Damn, this freaking diet gets more and more complicated everyday.

Liver glycogen, which has a small, small storage capactiy, needs to be depleted to enter ketosis. However, muscle glycogen, which's storage capacity is about 6-7 times higher, need not. You need the whole week to deplete them and the optimal way to do it is to deplete about half on a first training split monday/tuesday and the other half on a friday whole-body workout (that's the "depletion" workout).

We call it the depletion workout because you should do high reps, low mass just to burn the remaining glycogen. It's not the time to lift heavy or to bring it to failure. When you are depleted, even the low mass should be hard to lift. That complete depletion is what triggers supercompensation, but it has to occur JUST prior to the carbup. We're talking about minutes here. If you get to that level of depletion by monday (that would require a hell lot of training on sunday+monday and seems quite impossible to me, but let's just say...) well, 1) you would have trouble moving for the whole week and 2) you would NOT supercompensate by eating carbs five days later. In fact, even waiting an hour after depletion before eating carbs makes you miss the boat.

[PickItUp]

That complete depletion is what triggers supercompensation, but it has to occur JUST prior to the carbup. We're talking about minutes here....In fact, even waiting an hour after depletion before eating carbs makes you miss the boat.

Supercompensation...just a few minutes of window? Sounds too complicated to me...I think I'll just miss the window. Will my muscles shrivel up?

If I deplete after 4 sets...should I just stop then, and drink a PWO shake...or keep working out until I hit all the muscle zones?

I mean, if I start with squats...and deplete them...my chest, shoulders, and back still will need several sets each prior to depletion.

It sounds to me like the ideal chain of events can NEVER occur. You would have to deplete all the muscles at exactly the same time...and drink the PWO within a few minutes of that incident.

Has anyone here ever gotten it perfectly right...or do we all miss the boat?

[Druluv75]

Forget about the science, it just a great way to lose bodyfat and boost training intensity. Do it for the fat burning aspect.

[steven.alex]

Supercompensation...just a few minutes of window? Sounds too complicated to me...I think I'll just miss the window. Will my muscles shrivel up?

If I deplete after 4 sets...should I just stop then, and drink a PWO shake...or keep working out until I hit all the muscle zones?

I mean, if I start with squats...and deplete them...my chest, shoulders, and back still will need several sets each prior to depletion.

It sounds to me like the ideal chain of events can NEVER occur. You would have to deplete all the muscles at exactly the same time...and drink the PWO within a few minutes of that incident.

Has anyone here ever gotten it perfectly right...or do we all miss the boat?

Excellent post Questions i wanted to ask

[Mourning Tide]

Regarding the depletion workout you use lightweights but high reps right?

[PickItUp]

Excellent post Questions i wanted to ask

We need to get Teacher's attention...he has some edumuacating to do...I'll PM him to get his attention to those questions...and hopefully, he will find the time to answer them...

I would also be interested in learning why there is such a short window of opportunity. As mentioned, you cannot deplete every muscle group at exactly the same time...and given the few minutes of opportunity you have to start the supercompensation nutition...I don't see how anyone can reliably and regularly reach that point.

[muruku]

i dont believe in the "missing the boat theory"
in my opinion, depeletion work outs are to stimulate ur muscles to make em more receptive to glycogen compensation.

[muruku]

http://low-carb.org/lylemcd/cyclic2.htm
not bad read

[SumthinOrNuthin]

This is doing my head in! I feel like I'm never going to properly understand everything (I'm only on day 4, have pity on me ...!)

I'm thinking now that my lifting/fitness schedule maybe doesn't fit with a keto eating plan. I do a 2-way split, lifting on Mon, Weds & Fri. After each workout I do 20 mins of medium steady-state cardio. Tues Thurs & Sat I play racketball. Sunday is rest day.

So, my carb-up would, by rights, start on Saturday right after I play racketball and continue for 24 hours. (I do feel 24 hours would be enough.)

1) Can you start a carb-up after a cardio workout?
2) Can I still shoot for a caloric deficit on my carb-up day? (Most of the figures I've read would have me on around maintenance cals just from carbs - it seems crazy to blow your deficit for the week in order to carb up.

I'm hoping that there is some leeway here. I mean, its good to shoot for the perfect keto situation, but is it OK fall short here and there provided the calories and macros are spot on?

[Eileen]

Adjust the diet to your workouts, not the other way round. Ideally you rest on your carb-up, but you can play racketball if you want.

To get the best effect from your carb-up, I suggest you do cardio, then maybe 20 minutes of bdyweight squats and press-ups etc just to finish yourself off. If you've really hit the weights hard during the week, that may not be necessary, you know your own body best.

I'd suggest carb-up at maintenance. If it works well for you, you can always increase the amount the following week.

[SumthinOrNuthin]

Thanks Eileen

At the point where a carb-up is necessary then, should one feel completely and utterly wrecked? If you've scheduled a carb-up but after your workout, you don't feel wrecked, should you postpone it until you do?

Soz, I feel bad constantly asking questions. I can read and I have, but I think I'm suffering from information overload. But you folks here answer things in plain English whereas lots of the available info is in scientific speak that I can't handle

[Eileen]

In general, I'd say yes. If you are still feeling full of energy, you don't need to carb-up yet. If you try to bribe someone to brush your teeth for you because you can't keep your arm up that long, then you definitely need to carb-up.

Since you are planning to keep your carb-up conservative, and not make it an All-you-can-eat occasion, you might as well wait until you feel wrecked, and then do it.

[deadsix]

Full body workout prior to carbup, without reaching failure would ensure the best glycogen uptake for all muscles. And a calorie defecit with your carb-up wouldn't be the best idea, as you have to get alot of carbs to infiltrate your muscle glycogen ... and just as importantly, you need the high protein on carb days to repair the havoc you've wreaked on your muscles during the week. So it would be hard to get alot of carbs in your diet, with alot of protein, and a little bit of fat, and still have a defecit. Maintenance or just above maintenance would also boost your metabolism up, which will only help you burn more fat the next week of being in ketosis.

[Teacher77]

Supercompensation...just a few minutes of window? Sounds too complicated to me...I think I'll just miss the window. Will my muscles shrivel up?

All this window thing means is that you need to get some carbs really quick after the depletion workout. It's no big deal. Just get a tube of sweet tarts and eat all of it before you shower. (If you wait, you won't stock as much glycogen and that means you'll have less energy to train the week after.)

If I deplete after 4 sets...should I just stop then, and drink a PWO shake...or keep working out until I hit all the muscle zones?

Well you sure won't deplete after 4 sets... Unless you truly didn't eat carbs in weeks ! For someone raising about 70% of 1RM and starting at a high level of glycogen (1-2 days after a successful carbup), it takes a good 13-14 sets of 10 reps for each bodypart. This is obviously impossible to acheive in a single workout.

That why you hit each muscle group a first time early in the week with high mass and a second time, with low mass, on friday.

As for your specific question, i really think it's better to wait until the end of your workout to have the carbs.

I mean, if I start with squats...and deplete them...my chest, shoulders, and back still will need several sets each prior to depletion.

Indeed : you have to deplete each muscle group seperatly. Supercompensation will only occur in muscles that were depleted just before carb intake. (Research showed that waiting, even only 2 hours, after the end of the workout before having carbs reduced glycogen storage by 40-some %).

It sounds to me like the ideal chain of events can NEVER occur. You would have to deplete all the muscles at exactly the same time...and drink the PWO within a few minutes of that incident.

Has anyone here ever gotten it perfectly right...or do we all miss the boat?

Ok, you seem to have taken me very litteraly. I didn't mean "a few seconds" after depletion. All i did want to mean is that :
1) depletion must occur in a single workout and not a two day split, or else half your body would receive carbs only 24hrs after depletion, which is a too long delay.
2) waiting, even only 2-3 hours, after that single workout before taking carbs is a bad idea. You should start having carbs ASAP at end of your workout session.

But anyway, if your whole depletion workout lasts less than an hour like it should, that means you'll have carbs within a few minutes after working each muscle. (5 minutes after the ones you worked last and maybe 50 minutes after the ones you worked first). So where's the problem ?