capsaicin for fatloss

**pu12en12g** · 07-20-2004, 11:06 AM

Hey guys ! Let't talk about capsaicin for fatloss.. both topically and orally. I'll start things off...

Combined effects of red pepper and caffeine consumption on 24 h energy balance in subjects given free access to foods.

The effects of red pepper and caffeine ingestion on energy and macronutrient balances were examined in eight Caucasian male subjects. All subjects participated in two randomly assigned conditions: control and experimental (red pepper and caffeine). After ingesting a standardized breakfast, subjects ate three meals ad libitum (lunch, dinner and breakfast) and snacks which were served approximately 2 h after the lunch and dinner over a 24 h period. Two appetizers with or without 3 g red pepper) were given before lunch and dinner, and a drink (decaffeinated coffee with or without 200 mg caffeine) was served at all meals and snacks except for the after-dinner snack. It is also important to note that on the experimental day, 8.6 and 7.2 g red pepper were also added to lunch and dinner respectively.

Red pepper and caffeine consumption significantly reduced the cumulative ad libitum energy intake and increased energy expenditure. The mean difference in energy balance between both conditions was 4000 kJ/d. Moreover, the power spectral analysis of heart rate suggested that this effect of red pepper was associated with an increase in sympatheticarasympathetic nervous system activity ratio. These results indicate that the consumption of red pepper and caffeine can induce a considerable change in energy balance when individuals are given free access to foods.

Br J Nutr. 2001 Feb;85(2):203-11

Yoshioka M, Doucet E, Drapeau V, Dionne I, Tremblay A.

Department of Social and Preventive Medicine, Division of Kinesiology, Laval University, Ste-Foy, Quebec G1K 7P4, Canada.

Originally posted by Par Deus
Capsaicin is the stuff in peppers that gives them their hot taste. Of interest here is that, when nerves are exposed to capsaicin, they release a very large amount of CGRP. Of course, too much CGRP and you can actually damage the nerve permanently. Curiously, by permanently damaging capsaicin-sensitive nerves, rats and mice actually get leaner. For example, in one study researchers took mice and desensitized them to capsaicin by giving them a very large dose of the compound at the age of 1.5 months. They then compared those mice with matched controls at one year of age.

What they found was that that the desensitized mice had 9% less epididymal and 30 % less retroperitoneal fat than the controls. This was due to a reduction in the number of fat cells. The authors proposed that by desensitizing the capsaicin-sensitive neurons they attenuated the normal age-associated increase in CGRP activity and thus promoted whole body insulin insensitivity.

Now it's entirely questionable if humans would have a similar reaction, as rats and mice use their capsaicin-sensitive neurons to regulate thermogenesis in their brown fat tissue. So, we could be witnessing some kind of interaction with the brown fat thermogenesis system, which in turn causes this leanness. Now, much can be said about capsaicin as a fat loss aid at least in rats. But we are kind of getting off track.

What we really want to do for our purposes is provide a small dose of capsaicin to the nerve tissue that surrounds our subcutaneous adipose tissue. This way CGRP is released in this region resulting in localized insulin resistance, which should enhance fat loss from the targeted area. Furthermore CGRP is one of the most potent—if not the most potent–vasodilator naturally produced by the human body. So, it should substantially increase blood flow to the area, allowing for removal of the fatty acids that are released by Lipoderm's lipolytic ingredients.

Now back to nicotine. Not only does nicotine also cause the release of CGRP, it does so synergistically with capsaicin. In fact it seems that nicotine may sensitize the vanilloid receptors that capsaicin binds to (Yes that's vanilloid as in vanilla; capsaicin and vanilla are very close cousins at the molecular level). Nicotine is of course mildly lipolytic in its own right, which is an added benefit. In short I propose the addition of nicotine and capsaicin to the Lipoderm formula of your choice for enhanced fat reduction.

"If you are willing to put up with the pain you will be rewarded with accelerated fat loss."
You may be wondering why this was not included in the formula if it's so potent. Well there is one downside and let me tell you it's a big one: that downside is pain. I have tried this concoction and I will say it is not even remotely pleasant. It induces a severe burning sensation that subsides into a mild burning/numbness that can be felt fairly deeply in the tissue. However, if you are willing to put up with the pain you will be rewarded with accelerated fat loss.

**Hari K.** · 07-20-2004, 01:34 PM

does this mean I should mix coffee grinds, chilli pepper flakes, and ciggarettes togeather and rub it all over my body?

Or, since I drink 2 cups of coffee in the morning, eat chilli pepper on just about everything and smoke a few ciggarettes a week, am I in the optimal spectrum for fat loss?

**carcinogen** · 07-21-2004, 06:33 AM

capsaicin is "pepper spray"...dont you think that would kinda hurt?

**Hari K.** · 07-21-2004, 12:17 PM

Originally posted by carcinogen
capsaicin is "pepper spray"...dont you think that would kinda hurt?

capsaicin is IN pepper spray. Rub some chilli in your eye... same effect as pepper spray.

what a odd comment outta my mouth.

**pu12en12g** · 07-21-2004, 08:41 PM

Hari K.

- They make Nicotine gum proven in studies to be effective @ 1mg (stacked with caffeine for best results).

- CAPZASIN-HP (0.1% Capsaicin) is a topical cream and yes it is painful, but it's a "good" kinda pain IMO

Let's try to stay on topic please. We are discussing Capsaicin for fatloss.

**carcinogen** · 07-22-2004, 07:01 AM

Originally posted by pu12en12g
Hari K.

- They make Nicotine gum proven in studies to be effective @ 1mg (stacked with caffeine for best results).

- CAPZASIN-HP (0.1% Capsaicin) is a topical cream and yes it is painful, but it's a "good" kinda pain IMO

Let's try to stay on topic please. We are discussing Capsaicin for fatloss.

I take it that you are using it now, right?

**pu12en12g** · 07-22-2004, 07:07 AM

Originally posted by carcinogen
I take it that you are using it now, right?

I tested it out (abs / obliques) before, to assess my pain tolerance. The pain is definately tolerable, but I want to get some opinions on dosage etc. I don't even know how much Par was using.

It creates localized sweating like crazy for hours after each application.

**pu12en12g** · 07-22-2004, 08:29 AM

"In conclusion, the acute administration of capsaicin-containing red pepper sauce suspension in the proximal stomach causes a decrease in proximal gastric tone, an inhibition of the phasic contractility of the proximal stomach and an increase in the compliance and mechano-sensitivity of the proximal stomach, but does not affect the post-prandial motility of the proximal stomach. The acute administration of capsaicin induces a transient epigastric burning sensation, and this is followed by a decrease in the intensity of post-prandial symptoms. These data provide supportive evidence for the involvement of vanilloid receptor 1 in the modulation of gastric sensorimotor function in humans. They also add support to a putative therapeutic role for vanilloid receptor 1 modulation in hypersensitive functional disorders."

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/lin....01823.x/full/

Effects of sesamin and capsaicin on the mRNA expressions of delta6 and delta5 desaturases in rat primary cultured hepatocytes.

Sesamin, a lignan in sesame seeds and sesame seed oil, and capsaicin, the pungent principle of hot red pepper, affect lipid metabolism. Sesamin specifically inhibits delta5 desaturase activity in the Mortierella alpina fungus and rat liver microsomes, however, the effects of sesamin and capsaicin on mRNA expressions of delta6 and delta5 desaturases are not still clear. In this study, we investigated the effects of sesamin and capsaicin on the desaturation indexes of delta6 [(gamma-linolenic acid+dihomo-gamma-linolenic acid)/linolenic acid, (GLA+DGLA)/LA] and delta5 (arachidonic acid/DGLA, AA/DGLA) and mRNA expressions of delta6 and delta5 desaturases in rat primary cultured hepatocytes. To measure the mRNA expressions of delta6 and delta5 desaturase, hepatocytes were cultured in the presence of sesamin or capsaicin for 24 h. To investigate the delta6 or delta5 desaturation index, hepatocytes were cultured in the presence of LA or DGLA, respectively, with sesamin or capsaicin for 24 h. The fatty acid composition of the cells was measured by GLC. The mRNA expressions of delta6 and delta5 desaturases were detected by real time quantitative RT-PCR. Sesamin and capsaicin had no effect on the mRNA expressions of delta6 and delta5 desaturases in rat hepatocytes. Capsaicin had no effect on both delta6 and delta5 desaturation indexes, either. On the other hand, sesamin significantly reduced the index of delta5 desaturation but not delta6 desaturation. These results suggested that sesamin reduced the delta5 desaturation index without the changing of the delta5 desaturase mRNA level.

Umeda-Sawada R, Fujiwara Y, Abe H, Seyama Y.
J Nutr Sci Vitaminol (Tokyo). 2003 Dec;49(6):442-6.

Department of Nutrition and Food Science, Ochanomizu University, 2-1-1, Otsuka, Bunkyo-ku, Tokyo, 112-8610 Japan.

**SupaNatural** · 07-22-2004, 11:13 AM

There is also an intranasal product, although targeted at allergies and such. Don't know how that's pulled off though.

**Hari K.** · 07-22-2004, 12:12 PM

Sorry Pu.. wasn't trying to get smart.

So aside from a topical cream. Would this theory pass on too people who drink a couple cups of coffee a day and have a diet that includes liberal amounts of chilli pepper? Would that same person benefit from minimal amounts of nicotine as well?

Just for the sake of arguement.. the person mentioned above is me....

**Hari K.** · 07-22-2004, 12:12 PM

Sorry Pu.. wasn't trying to get smart.

So aside from a topical cream. Would this theory pass on too people who drink a couple cups of coffee a day and have a diet that includes liberal amounts of chilli pepper? Would that same person benefit from minimal amounts of nicotine as well?

Just for the sake of arguement.. the person mentioned above is me....

**Romac** · 07-22-2004, 12:46 PM

i just splashed texas pete hot sauce on my gut, sprinkled cayenne pepper on it, rubbed it in and let is sit for 5 minutes.

burn baby burn!

Someone has to do this on one side of their gut and not the other for one month, and list the starting and ending skin-fold measurements.

**Hari K.** · 07-22-2004, 02:08 PM

Originally posted by Romac
i just splashed texas pete hot sauce on my gut, sprinkled cayenne pepper on it, rubbed it in and let is sit for 5 minutes.

burn baby burn!

...

nice.

but is this realistic? Pu.. you got any working product examples of these studies?

**Romac** · 07-22-2004, 02:29 PM

Pu's gonna have to do the study himself:

Someone has to do this on one side of their gut and not the other for one month, and list the starting and ending skin-fold measurements.

**pu12en12g** · 07-23-2004, 07:37 AM

Wow... I keep reading this one over and over... can't make much sense of it:

http://www.if-pan.krakow.pl/pjp/pdf/2002/03_9.pdf

Effect of capsaicin and dimethyl sulfoxide (DMSO) on ion transport in the selected experimental models.

The aim of the present work was to determine the changes in ion transport in the selected epithelium-lined organs under influence of mechanical stimuli, and also to assess similarities and differences in reactions to capsaicin and dimethyl sulfoxide (DMSO) between trachea and caecum of rabbit and the skin of frog in this experimental setup. The experiments were conducted on rabbit trachea and caecum, and the skin of frog, Rana esculenta L. The experiments consisted in measuring transepithelial electrical potential (PD in mV) with Ussing apparatus, modified to enable testing of the effects of mechanical stimulation of organs and defined pharmacological treatments. It was demonstrated that the addition of DMSO to the stimulating fluid decreased reversible hyperpolarization (dPD) after mechanical stimulation by at least 50% in all studied groups. On the other hand, action of capsaicin was dependent on the organ studied as well as on experimental conditions (e.g. type of incubation). Capsaicin decreased PD and reaction to mechanical stimulation in trachea incubated in Ringer solution supplemented with amiloride. On the other hand, it did not influence electrophysiological parameters of the trachea following its incubation with bumetanide. Capsaicin did not change electrical potential or reactivity of rabbit caecum incubated with both amiloride and bumetanide. The administration of capsaicin on frog skin incubated with bumetanide caused inhibition of the reaction to mechanical stimulation, whereas during incubation with amiloride no changes were recorded in PD and dPD of the skin. The present study demonstrated that capsaicin and DMSO could modify processes of ion transport dependent on mechanical stimulation.

Kosik-Bogacka DI, Banach B, Tyrakowski T, Wojciechowska I.

Department of Biology and Medical Parasitology, Pomeranian Medical University, Szczecin, Poland. kodan@sci.pam.szczecin.pl

Action of capsaicin and related peptides on the ionic transport across the skin of Rana esculenta.

Capsaicin at low concentrations increases the short circuit current (SCC) across frog skin. Simultaneous measurements of both transepithelial fluxes of 22Na or 36Cl demonstrate that the SCC increase is due to stimulation of sodium active absorption. Capsaicin acts through the liberation of several peptides; thus these peptides were tested on the SCC across frog skin. Those more active are, in order of potency: Cyclic Calcitonin Gene Related Peptide (CGRP), Kassinin and Eledoisin, Substance P (SP) and Neurokinin A. Neurokinin B and Vasoactive Intestinal Peptide (VIP) have no effect. Also the actions of SP and CGRP are due mainly to stimulation of Na+ active absorption. A strict parallelism regarding the sensitivity to inhibitors (Naproxen, SQ22536 and CP96345) between SP, CGRP and Capsaicin strengthens the hypothesis that SP and CGRP are liberated by Capsaicin in this tissue.

Lippe C, Bellantuono V, Castronuovo G, Ardizzone C, Cassano G.
Institute of General Physiology, University of Bari, Italy.
Arch Int Physiol Biochim Biophys. 1994 Jan-Feb;102(1):51-4.

**Harland** · 07-23-2004, 08:26 AM

Ive read several things on DMSO and CAP.

What i gather is that DMSO will work with all topicals. You apply it first wait like 15 minutes and then use your topical.

Scenario:
Apply DMSO, wait 15 minutes, Apply CAP, Apply Topical-FATLOSS-Aid.

What that be going to far?

Should you just add CAP/DMSO?

**pu12en12g** · 07-23-2004, 05:51 PM

Originally posted by Harland
What i gather is that DMSO will work with all topicals. You apply it first wait like 15 minutes and then use your topical.

So far what I've read it appears to "work" either way, but theoretically it would work better in the way you described (applying it seperately).

**BiggJohn** · 07-26-2004, 06:57 PM

pu12en12g-

You've read about spooky Lipoderm Ultra I believe. Works incredible, like a fat eraser.

**Romac** · 07-27-2004, 03:22 AM

Originally posted by BiggJohn
pu12en12g-

You've read about spooky Lipoderm Ultra I believe. Works incredible, like a fat eraser.

i hope you're being sarcastic

if not please reference the study or personal log of someone that used it to *cough* 'erase fat'

All the logs i have seen have indicated that this product does not work, therefore you must mean to be sarcastic...please place a smile after future sarcasm so you don't confuse us

**Harland** · 07-27-2004, 04:14 AM

i have a log of using just plain lipoderm with a clean diet and cardio. I even used it when a super high bodyfat.

It was a while back

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hreadid=270460

**Romac** · 07-27-2004, 04:29 AM

Originally posted by Harland
i have a log of using just plain lipoderm with a clean diet and cardio. I even used it when a super high bodyfat.

It was a while back

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hreadid=270460

yeah it was your log that i was refering to

your lack of results showed me this product did not work

although i don't think you listed before and after skinfold measurements grom your gut...just waist measurements.

if you have to apply this stuff everyday for 1 month to get a 1mm skinfold change, it doesn't work. in one month i have lost 8mm off my gut from diet alone.

do you have skinfolds before and after?

**Harland** · 07-27-2004, 05:04 AM

well i saw some changes in the mirror that previous dieting didn't do. Im not saying it took off all my fat.

I did take some skinfold measurements, but they were the crappy 3-point method. I'm now using the 9-point, maybe i will do another log in the future

**Romac** · 07-27-2004, 05:23 AM

Originally posted by Harland
I did take some skinfold measurements, but they were the crappy 3-point method. I'm now using the 9-point, maybe i will do another log in the future

well the only measurement of importance is the gut skinfold from before and after.

if this stuff costs $30 per bottle and applying it for 1 month everyday results in a 1mm gut skinfold loss, it's just not worth it.

I got rid of 8mm from diet alone in 1 month.

I would pay $30 to get rid of 3mm extra gut fat in 1 month, but to do the test would be difficult. You'd first of all have to know exactly what sort of diet and workload allows you to maintain exactly the same BF, then you'd have to stick to that diet and workload for 1 month while you used the product. Which would pretty much be a wasted month if you could lose 8mm if you just went on a diet.

**BiggJohn** · 07-27-2004, 11:09 AM

Originally posted by Romac
i hope you're being sarcastic

if not please reference the study or personal log of someone that used it to *cough* 'erase fat'

All the logs i have seen have indicated that this product does not work, therefore you must mean to be sarcastic...please place a smile after future sarcasm so you don't confuse us

No joke little guy, I'll post a pic in a week.

**Romac** · 07-27-2004, 11:17 AM

Originally posted by BiggJohn
No joke little guy, I'll post a pic in a week.

ha ha ha they call me pee wee

5'10" 174lbs with 10%bf is not that little man considering most non-lifter guys that are 5'10" and 200lbs (like i was 2 months ago) are carrying around about 20%bf

pics are not really necessary for me to believe you man, but i would be very, very interested in seeing your before and after gut skinfold measurements. Like i said earlier...i lost 8mm off my gut with diet alone in 1 month so your diet and workload would have to be controlled while you applied this stuff for a month in order to really know if it was working or not.

every log or account i have ever seen of this stuff being used has shown little to no change in skinfold measurements.

If you can document that this stuff works, you would be the first account i have ever seen.

**Harland** · 07-27-2004, 11:24 AM

romac: to you disbelieve in all topicals? or just fat loss agents?

**Romac** · 07-27-2004, 12:33 PM

Originally posted by Harland
romac: to you disbelieve in all topicals? or just fat loss agents?

it's not really a matter of disbelief man. I really wanna believe. All i want is to see is a couple people post their before and after gut skinfold measurements and a description as to how they controlled their diet and workload to make sure the fat loss wasn't from that.

Even better...i'd love to read a clinical study of these products.

I'd love to be able to rub $30 worth of stuff on my gut for a month and get even 3 or 4mm knocked off my skinfold measurement. 3 or 4mm would save me half a month of doing 30 or 40 minutes of cardio every day and dieting like crazy.

I believe that as of yet an effective topically applied fat-loss agent is not available. As soon as one becomes available you can bet i will buy it.

**Romac** · 07-27-2004, 01:20 PM

i found the actual study that big cat references in one of his articles regarding lipoderm, but i'm not sure how they measured the results. They say "p < 0.05 to p < 0.001" with reference to thigh girth reduction. I presume they are talking about percent? If so, I presume by .05 and .001 they mean 5% reduction vs 1% reduction in the control thigh? If so that means a 23" thigh would be reduced in girth by about 1"and the control thighs were reduced by about 1/4"? So the net loss after 6 weeks was 3/4" off of circumference which translates to about 1mm lost of fat thickness.

So it works but is a 1mm loss in fat thickness worth the cost of a bottle? I can lose 1mm of fat off my gut in a week or less with regular dieting, so for me the answer to the question is no. 5 or 6 days of diet and cardio are not worth $30, but i guess we each have to make that decision for ourselves.:

Topical fat reduction.

Greenway FL, Bray GA, Heber D.

Department of Medicine, UCLA School of Medicine, Torrance, CA, USA.

The fat on women's thighs is more difficult to mobilize due to increased alpha-2 adrenergic receptor activity induced by estrogen. Lipolysis can be initiated through adipocyte receptor stimulation (beta adrenergic) or inhibition (adenosine or alpha-2 adrenergic) or by inhibition of phosphodiesterase. Since many women desire regional thigh fat loss, a series of clinical trials were initiated using one thigh as a double-blinded control. Trial #1: Five overweight women had injections of isoproterenol at intervals around the thigh three times a week for 4 weeks with diet and walking. Trial #2: Five overweight woman had ointment containing forskolin, yohimbine and aminophylline applied to the thigh five times a week for 4 weeks after hypertonic warm soaks with a diet and walking. Trial #3: Eighteen overweight women were divided into three groups of six and trial #2 was repeated with each agent alone vs. placebo using forskolin, yohimbine or aminophylline in separate ointments. Trial #4: Thirty overweight women had 10% aminophylline ointment applied to the thigh five times a week for 6 weeks with diet and walking. Chemistry panel, theophylline level and patch testing were performed. Trial #5: Twelve women had trial #4 repeated with 2% aminophylline cream without a diet or walking. Trial #6: Trial #5 was repeated with 0.5% aminophylline cream. All trials except yohimbine ointment gave significantly more girth loss from the treated thigh (p < 0.05 to p < 0.001). Chemistry panel showed no toxicity. Theophylline was undetectable and patch testing was negative. We conclude that topical fat reduction for women's thighs can be achieved without diet or exercise.

Publication Types:
Clinical Trial
Controlled Clinical Trial

PMID: 8697059 PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE

**pu12en12g** · 07-28-2004, 06:25 AM

Ok

1) Yes, Harland should have gotten to a lower BF % naturally first before using Lipoderm-Y. Even Avant Labs says that. It is most effective at a lower beginning bodyfat. He also should have stacked it with E+C for better results. He was also stacking it with NO2 = not a good idea.

2) Secondly, this thread isn't about whether or not Lipoderm-Y works. This is about Capsaicin, either orally or topically... alone, or stacked.

3) Read the following thread for a discussion about Lipoderm-Y. Watch the pure ownage progress... very entertaining I promise

:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hreadid=305803

**Romac** · 07-28-2004, 07:47 AM

wow what a long thread...ok i took my comments there and will discontinue talking about lipoderm in this thread.

btw this is a summary of my post in that thread:

I believe that lipoderm works, but i also believe it doesn't work well enough to justify me buying a bottle (or 2).

My findings are as follows:
6 weeks of lipoderm application can eliminate approximately 1mm of fat off the area to which it is applied at a cost of approximately $50.

It works, but is a 1mm loss in fat thickness worth the cost of 1 or 2 bottles? I can lose 1mm of fat off my gut in a week or less with regular dieting, so for me the answer to the question is no. I have 17mm of fat on my lower gut right now so what value is a 1mm reduction? $50? I think not. 5 or 6 days of diet and cardio are not worth $50 or $60, but i guess we each have to make that decision for ourselves. What is the thickness of the fat on your gut? And how much would it cost you to get rid of half of it at the rate of $50 per mm? And how long would it take @ 1mm per 4 or 6 weeks? For me it would take 9 or 10 months of using this product, combined with cardio and diet, at a cost of $500. No thanks. With regular cardio and diet I can get rid of 8mm of fat from my gut in 1 month for free vs 10 months for $500.:

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