Which way to go: cut/bulk/maintenance?

[Nelg1993]

I’ve been lifting for a while now (few years), but was never consistent. I started out very skinny (130lbs) and now I’m sitting at 165lbs but I’m not happy with the results. I’ve attached some pictures (see link below). I think I am what is considered ‘skinny fat’. To keep the question short:

What is the best approach for me nutrition wise? Deficit, surplus or maintenace?

Some other stats that might be helpful:
- Height 6ft
- Age 28 y/o
- BP 135lbs x5
- DL 225lbs x3
- SQ 175lbs x3

https://imgur.com/a/eveU29H

[safcpaul]

Small deficit while fighting to continue to progressive overload with your lifts

[Nelg1993]

Small deficit while fighting to continue to progressive overload with your lifts

How much of a deficit? I’ve been eating 1900-2000 calories a day for about 3 weeks now. My maintenance should be about 2400-2500.

[safcpaul]

If your maintenance is 2500 then I would eat about 2200 while trying to progress your lifts. You should be able to gain muscle and lose fat for a while. Once your lifts stall then you can slowly increase calories again

[AdamWW]

I’ve been lifting for a while now (few years), but was never consistent. I started out very skinny (130lbs) and now I’m sitting at 165lbs but I’m not happy with the results. I’ve attached some pictures (see link below). I think I am what is considered ‘skinny fat’. To keep the question short:

What is the best approach for me nutrition wise? Deficit, surplus or maintenace?

Some other stats that might be helpful:
- Height 6ft
- Age 28 y/o
- BP 135lbs x5
- DL 225lbs x3
- SQ 175lbs x3

https://imgur.com/a/eveU29H

You need a new program dude... if you're lifting for a few YEARS... at 165lb those lifting numbers are basically day #1 level...

What have you been doing in the gym?

Were you actively tracking calories etc during this period when you were putting on weight?

[EliKoehn]

I would absolutely opt for a surplus and get on a program like Fierce Five (which admittedly I never did, but there are many who have seen great results from it), or at least start trying to put more weight on the bar in the lower rep range for a little while.

You've added a lot to your frame already! Adam's right. Those are beginner numbers, but the good news is you should break through that in short order if you get serious and work hard. Keep it up and you should make more progress no question.

[nik033]

Bloatmax

[Nelg1993]

You need a new program dude... if you're lifting for a few YEARS... at 165lb those lifting numbers are basically day #1 level...

What have you been doing in the gym?

Were you actively tracking calories etc during this period when you were putting on weight?

I did a lot of program hopping, partly because I didn't really know how to structure it properly because of my work schedule. Now I bought a home gym (barbell, power rack, plates and some adjustable dumbbells) so I really don't have much of a choice when it comes to exercise selection and it's way easier for me to motivate myself to workout regularly.

I was also 'scared' to move up in weight, because I had a shoulder injury which took 2 years to fully rehab. This affected every major compound lift. Looking back the only time I made real progress is when my weights moved up aswel (duh).

Lately I have been doing full body every other day, two way split.
D1: BP 3x5-8, SQ 3x5-8, BB row 3x5-8, db curl 2x10-15 and db shoulder press 2x8-12
D2: DL 3x5, Chin-ups (bodyweight, adding 1 rep per workout across 5 sets), incline db press 3x8-12, tricep db overhead ext. 2x10-15 and lateral raises 2x10-15.

Focussing on strength progression with good form, trying to really execute the exercise properly. Not falling for all that 'volume' crap. For some reason I never realised that if I bench 135 for 5 now and I bench 225 for 5 in a year.. I'd be a lot bigger then.

I did track macros, ate clean, always got 1+ grams of protein... But I think the main factor that was missing was good training - progressive overload. Since I ate in a surplus and didn't progress much in the gym, I guess all that surplus went to fat instead of muscle.

[Nelg1993]

I would absolutely opt for a surplus and get on a program like Fierce Five (which admittedly I never did, but there are many who have seen great results from it), or at least start trying to put more weight on the bar in the lower rep range for a little while.

You've added a lot to your frame already! Adam's right. Those are beginner numbers, but the good news is you should break through that in short order if you get serious and work hard. Keep it up and you should make more progress no question.

Doing something similar now, see post above. I know those are bad numbers, but I didn't care much for strength actually. I also feel like I started out with a handicap, being so underweight (had a serious stomach surgery prior) as a lot of people start out with the numbers I'm putting up today. I also fell into the 'volume drives growth' trap, whereas if I look back (I did start out with fierce 5 btw) the only time I made real progress is when I upped my weight on the compound lifts. That's why I chose a minimalist program now, focussed on strength progression with a lot of frequency and practice on a select few compound movements. IDK if the program is ok, but it's better than what I was doing before I think.

[rml27v]

U are too skinny for cutting. You need muscle mass. Slow bulk. Also might wanna try a brosplit

[Tommy W.]

U are too skinny for cutting. You need muscle mass. Slow bulk. Also might wanna try a brosplit

No brosplits and not to skinny

[Tommy W.]

How much of a deficit? I’ve been eating 1900-2000 calories a day for about 3 weeks now. My maintenance should be about 2400-2500.

at those calories what has your weight done in the last 3 weeks?

[Nelg1993]

at those calories what has your weight done in the last 3 weeks?

I just checked my log, I was eating between 1900 and 2100 calories a day for 20 days, apart from one day 2500. My starting weigh-in was 166.3, the last 3 days consistently 163.2.

[Tommy W.]

I just checked my log, I was eating between 1900 and 2100 calories a day for 20 days, apart from one day 2500. My starting weigh-in was 166.3, the last 3 days consistently 163.2.

Well that's a 500 a day deficit so that isn't bad however if you want to speed up the loss you'll need to lower your weekly numbers some

[rml27v]

No brosplits and not to skinny

A guy who can bench 60 kg for 5 reps doesn't have the muscle to cut. He will need to starve himself eating nothing in a process and will end up looking like a skeleton. Not a good look at all. What's wrong with brosplits?

[Tommy W.]

A guy who can bench 60 kg for 5 reps doesn't have the muscle to cut. He will need to starve himself eating nothing in a process and will end up looking like a skeleton. Not a good look at all. What's wrong with brosplits?

Hitting a muscle 1X per week is suboptimal. So if a guy is obese and benches 60kg for 5 he has no business cutting?

[rml27v]

Hitting a muscle 1X per week is suboptimal. So if a guy is obese and benches 60kg for 5 he has no business cutting?

Except he is 6 ft tall 165 lbs. Ofc obese people should cut. And biggest guys would disagree that hitting a muscle 1x per week is suboptimal but what do they know

[Tommy W.]

Except he is 6 ft tall 165 lbs. Ofc obese people should cut. And biggest guys would disagree that hitting a muscle 1x per week is suboptimal but what do they know

The biggest guys are on special vitamins. Go by photos instead of stats always. OP has fat to lose. He could go either way

[CommitmentRulz]

The biggest guys are on special vitamins.

This ^^^^. They are playing by totally different rules and results.

[rml27v]

The biggest guys are on special vitamins.

insert shocked Pikachu. and that changes what? I thought steroids speed up recovery! So they could train even more frequently than natties and get the most optimal results. But they are not. Steroids aside biggest guys in the gym also train that way from my exp

[EliKoehn]

Except he is 6 ft tall 165 lbs. Ofc obese people should cut. And biggest guys would disagree that hitting a muscle 1x per week is suboptimal but what do they know

Relatively big natty here.

I disagree that training a muscle group one time per week is a good idea.

[Tommy W.]

insert shocked Pikachu. and that changes what? I thought steroids speed up recovery! So they could train even more frequently than natties and get the most optimal results. But they are not. Steroids aside biggest guys in the gym also train that way from my exp

That's old style. We used to train like that in the 70's however we've gained more knowledge regarding frequency and recovery patterns.

[EiFit91]

insert shocked Pikachu. and that changes what? I thought steroids speed up recovery! So they could train even more frequently than natties and get the most optimal results. But they are not. Steroids aside biggest guys in the gym also train that way from my exp

The special vitamins also artificially elevate muscle protein synthesis. In natties muscle protein synthesis peaks relatively quickly after lifting and then declines. IMO this is a compelling reason why you want to up your training frequency if you are natty and hitting each body part just once a week.

[EliKoehn]

The special vitamins also artificially elevate muscle protein synthesis. In natties muscle protein synthesis peaks relatively quickly after lifting and then declines. IMO this is a compelling reason why you want to up your training frequency if you are natty and hitting each body part just once a week.

Mon: Dl, Sq + curl l PM run
Tues: BP, OHP + lateral raise, alt cardio
Wed: Sq, Dl + hip isolations l PM run
Thur: BP, Row + tricep isolation, alt cardio
Fri: Dl, Sq + calf isolation
Sat: BP, Pull Up + curl, lateral raise l PM run
Sun: Full rest

Considering running this pattern during a cut, emphasis on the first listed exercise and low volume overall, with a somewhat aggressive deficit. Big 3 each twice a week, the other three "essential" movement pattern compounds once, plus a little bit of "buffing" isolation.

Curious if literally just a few sets at about 70% will be sustainable at that frequency. With that kind of stimulus though MPS should be almost constantly elevated.

[Mrpb]

I’ve been lifting for a while now (few years), but was never consistent. I started out very skinny (130lbs) and now I’m sitting at 165lbs but I’m not happy with the results. I’ve attached some pictures (see link below). I think I am what is considered ‘skinny fat’. To keep the question short:

What is the best approach for me nutrition wise? Deficit, surplus or maintenace?

Some other stats that might be helpful:
- Height 6ft
- Age 28 y/o
- BP 135lbs x5
- DL 225lbs x3
- SQ 175lbs x3

https://imgur.com/a/eveU29H

See how you go while eating at maintenance. Try Fierce 5 Novice.

A guy who can bench 60 kg for 5 reps doesn't have the muscle to cut. He will need to starve himself eating nothing in a process and will end up looking like a skeleton. Not a good look at all.

I agree with this. He should just recomp at 2500 kcal.

[EiFit91]

Mon: Dl, Sq + curl l PM run
Tues: BP, OHP + lateral raise, alt cardio
Wed: Sq, Dl + hip isolations l PM run
Thur: BP, Row + tricep isolation, alt cardio
Fri: Dl, Sq + calf isolation
Sat: BP, Pull Up + curl, lateral raise l PM run
Sun: Full rest

Considering running this pattern during a cut, emphasis on the first listed exercise and low volume overall, with a somewhat aggressive deficit. Big 3 each twice a week, the other three "essential" movement pattern compounds once, plus a little bit of "buffing" isolation.

Curious if literally just a few sets at about 70% will be sustainable at that frequency. With that kind of stimulus though MPS should be almost constantly elevated.

Interesting, are you already doing high frequencies or are you going to start experimenting with it now? I am doing something similar now trying to hit each bodypart at least three times a week and having very good results. But hard to know if it’s driven by the increase in frequency, the increase in volume, the increase in calories (I am bulking) or some combination of these.

Also find it a bit funny how I started bulking and you want to cut - both going against the advice we normally give out here.

[EliKoehn]

Interesting, are you already doing high frequencies or are you going to start experimenting with it now? I am doing something similar now trying to hit each bodypart at least three times a week and having very good results. But hard to know if it’s driven by the increase in frequency, the increase in volume, the increase in calories (I am bulking) or some combination of these.

Also find it a bit funny how I started bulking and you want to cut - both going against the advice we normally give out here.

That is ironic haha xD

Right now I am at the end of Candito's 6 Week Strength Program. I usually don't have more than one rest day a week in my own miscellaneous workouts, but this program (which is more intense per its emphasis on squats which I have historically neglected) has certainly been a gratifying challenge. So I am already pretty accustomed to high frequency if not yet an even diligence in applying it in balance.

I have more of a powerlifting mentality and aim than bodybuilding, and am more enthused by chasing numbers than a physique, per se (but who doesn't want that also lol?). That said, I am ready finally to challenge myself seriously to get down the upper teens shortly after this program ends. I would be very happy to get down to a true 18%. As you often point out as a phenomenon, I probably have a lot more fat than is immediately obvious and I do hold it on my frame pretty well, so reaching 18% could easily mean losing 20-30 pounds. The favorable lighting and posed posture in my photos of course exaggerates definition and where I've uploaded my lifts in another thread you can see I look less impressive white-washed in LED.

I like running and being out in the heat so now that it's summer I'm looking forward to shifting focus for a little while. I am somewhat close to my powerlifting goals I've set for October, so I'd like to see how much I can lean out in two months before resuming the focus on strength.

What specific goals do you have with the bulk?

[rml27v]

That's old style. We used to train like that in the 70's however we've gained more knowledge regarding frequency and recovery patterns.

I think most of the guys at the gym train this way still. Not everyone is into science and watching evidence-based videos. And again from my exp the biggest guys at the gym are using this style of training (guys who don't use steroids.)

[rml27v]

The special vitamins also artificially elevate muscle protein synthesis. In natties muscle protein synthesis peaks relatively quickly after lifting and then declines. IMO this is a compelling reason why you want to up your training frequency if you are natty and hitting each body part just once a week.

I think u are making mistake in your thinking pattern. Muscle growth is influenced by two things: training (MPS elevation that is caused by training) and hormones (e.g. testosterone). Guys that are using special vitamins are having elevated MPS through the second pathway (I mean significantly more so than natties (exogenous test).I am really not aware of any study saying that MPS elevation that is caused by training in guys who are using special vitamins is prolonged from let's say 2 days to 7 days.
This argument aside I just think you can't make assumptions what is good program based on MPS data alone, because going by that data you would grow 2x more by training more frequently, and I just don't see that is happening.

[Mrpb]

Excellent article by James Krieger about training frequency:

https://weightology.net/the-members-...e-based-bible/

Key takeaway:

Updated meta-analytic data show little difference in hypertrophy with frequencies ranging from 1 to 6 days per week on a volume equated basis. However, most of these studies involved low to moderately-high session volumes (<12 sets per session). When session volume gets very high (15+ sets per session), evidence favors splitting the volume into more frequent sessions.

Evidence slightly favors a frequency of 2+ days per week versus 1 day per week, especially if training volume is high.

More relevant takeaways mentioned. Like:

Since frequency likely plays a very minor role in hypertrophy on a volume equated basis, it is likely best to choose a frequency that works best for you, your recovery abilities, your schedule, and which allows you to train with sufficient quality volume.

One exception is the use of the "bro-split" involving very high per session volumes (like 15-20+) performed once per week. Evidence indicates that this style of training is inferior, since there appears to be a limit to how much hypertrophy can be stimulated in a single training session.

Evidence is starting to mount of a maximum per-session volume of around 6-8 hard sets per muscle group on average when using long rest intervals.