BCAAS ineffective in isolation

[Goingviking]

All this talk of intra workout BCAA's and if they are beneficial or not when anybody wanting guaranteed intraworkout benefits can resort to carbs + a whole protein source like hydro whey which sits easily in the stomach. Unflavored hydro and let the carbs flavor the intra workout and it's perfectly fine. That way you aren't leaving anything to question by spending a couple extra bucks.

The only reason I use them is for calorie considerations. I am trying to keep protein synthesis as high as I can during a heavy cut. I am still eating solid food four meals a day though, but I assume some of my protein is being used up as energy due to a large deficit..

[BULLandTERRIER]

guaranteed intraworkout benefits

What freakin' benefits??? If you eat adequate protein/calories during the day, there's no need to ingest anything during workout except water.

This intraworkout hype is beyond belief.

[Misctake7]

The only reason I use them is for calorie considerations. I am trying to keep protein synthesis as high as I can during a heavy cut. I am still eating solid food four meals a day though, but I assume some of my protein is being used up as energy due to a large deficit..

BCAA's aren't calorie free. BCAA's are an incomplete source.....at the very least, utilize EAA's if you want an intraworkout that will have even a slight positive effect to them.

What freakin' benefits??? If you eat adequate protein/calories during the day, there's no need to ingest anything during workout except water.

This intraworkout hype is beyond belief.

So the studies that support the fact intraworkout carbs increase performance are B.S.?
Intraworkout protein is for those wanting to take full advantage of nutrient timing as well as those needing to fit more calories into there diet. Sitting here and bulking on 5k+ calories and having a full time job, it's an easy way to get in calories and boost performance. Not to mention your body makes much better use of nutrients around the time of your workout. Complete source of protein > BCAA's, so I won't even waste my time mentioning BCAA's. That's not bro science either. Do some looking into nutrient partitioning around the workout parameter. If you're not looking to take those extra steps for gains, it's fine to disregard. But if you're denying the fact of benefits, you just haven't done enough reading or applied it yourself.

[eatyourspinach]

All this talk of intra workout BCAA's and if they are beneficial or not when anybody wanting guaranteed intraworkout benefits can resort to carbs + a whole protein source like hydro whey which sits easily in the stomach. Unflavored hydro and let the carbs flavor the intra workout and it's perfectly fine. That way you aren't leaving anything to question by spending a couple extra bucks.

Not sure if it would be completely accurate to compare it to hydro whey but Lyle McDonald has an interesting bit about hydrolyzed casein http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/res...h-review.html/

[Mrpb]

Those same authors said the following as well after:

"Some also questioned my inclusion of BCAA’s, even though I only made a couched recommendation for very specific conditions. It is true that BCAA’s are one of the most frequently used supplements for bodybuilding [15], which is odd considering there is only one study directly relevant to muscle and strength development that supports their use [22]. This popularity is even less founded considering this study was a poster presentation rather than peer reviewed journal article, and considering that dietary controls weren’t put in place to account for total daily protein intake (which is important since a high protein diet contains a high content of BCAA). Outside of this one poster presentation that should be interpreted with caution, there is scant evidence to support BCAA use. "

The fact that many people tend to overlook.

Oh boy, the funding study part. I love when people who've never been apart of a study in any way shape or form are now experts on how studies are done.

I have no problem with the funding part. The fact a company has funded a study doesn't make it less valuable imo.

Unfortunately supplement companies often work with smaller and sometimes less reputable labs, like the HMB-FA study done by Wilson's lab (he's no longer there afaik).

Why not run a study with one of the more reputable labs like Stu Phillips or Luc Van Loon. I'd expert they'd be interested.

BTW, I'm unaware of a study that controlled for adequate protein intake for an athlete, had a challenging training protocol and dosed bcaa's properly that has been published.

Not even the study you funded with Dudgeon et. al.?

I guess millions of people taking it are all sheep.

How many people buy a product doesn't necessarily correlate with its efficacy. There are many examples of this, for example the most sold shampoo in Germany contains caffeine because it's supposed to prevent hair loss. Obviously there's no real world data supporting this claim.

People might be buying Xtend because of good marketing, placebo effects, the flavor or other components besides BCAAs. The general public is usually unaware of scientific data.

BCAA's have been shown to reduce fatigue, muscle damage, perceived effort and pain sensation. Improves recovery and immune system response.

Except that all those studies mentioned used insufficient protein intakes and then gave more AAs to the BCAA group. Give more AAs to one group and it likely helps a bit. But how would BCAAs compare to EEAs or whey? Going by what I've seen EEAs and whey will likely win. So why not push EAAs instead?

But lets have everyone talk about mps.

In case you didn't know, Stu Phillips lab has shown a ~0.9 correlation between 24h MPS and actual muscle gain measured with muscle biopsy, after attenuation of muscle damage. So 24h MPS is a very interesting proxy in anyone interested in muscle repair and growth.

Long training studies can be interesting but it's hard to control diets and the majority of them lack accurate measures of muscle growth (DEXA and underwater weighing aren't very accurate for changes in muscle).

In fact if you were to fund another BCAA study I would suggest doing a study that measures MPS. Long term training studies are costly and convoluted by many circumstances. If you could show that 10 gram BCAAs is as effective in stimulating MPS as whey or 10 gram EAAs I would definitely change my verdict on them.

[JornT]

Can BCAA supplementation have a positive effect on recovery and gains? Absolutely. If someone would give me a free tub of BCAA, I would definitely use it.

I think people are more interested in knowing how BCAA supplementation compares to simply eating more protein, protein supplementation, essential amino acid supplementation, or leucine supplementation. The current research, it appears those alternative supplementation strategies would be more effective.

The Tipton study in the OP suggests that BCAA supplementation is less effective compared to whey protein supplementation.
Heres a section I wrote about why BCAA supplementation appears be less effective than just supplementing leucine alone:
http://www.nutritiontactics.com/meas...is/#73_Leucine

It is mentioned that people focus ''just on MPS''. Ultimately, MPS regulates muscle mass. Reducing fatigue, recovery and other suggested outcomes of BCAA supplementation are just tools so you can stimulate MPS more, earlier, longer etc. I work with professor Van Loon who is mentioned above. I'd be happy to run a cool study on BCAA and try to figure out if and when BCAA supplementation could be beneficial.

[Mike McCandless]

Once the term always start being used in how things happen in a study, usually time to cut off the lights. I don't even know why I bother with these things anymore, I'm retired lol

[powercage]

This is fun

[mtpaquette]

Protein > EAA > BCAAs for MPS


Motorcycle > moped > bicycle for transportation

[OT2000]

Motorcycle > moped > bicycle for transportation

I prefer my truck for transportation

[Farley1324]

I prefer my truck for transportation

I don't think we are allowed to discuss that particular vehicle type here

[mtpaquette]

I prefer my truck for transportation

Truck > four wheeler (street legal) > Power Wheels?



Is that more relate-able for you? It was the best I could come up with at the time... lmao

[LoudyRowdy]

Truck > four wheeler (street legal) > Power Wheels?



Is that more relate-able for you? It was the best I could come up with at the time... lmao

Big Wheels > all

[Misctake7]

Hot Wheels > all

Fixed

[Mrpb]

Once the term always start being used in how things happen in a study, usually time to cut off the lights.

Who used the word 'always'? I can't find it.

So the studies that support the fact intraworkout carbs increase performance are B.S.?

I'm not sure if I've seen them all but am I right in saying that they tested intra workout carbs in a fasted state?

I would expect that the benefits disappears when you've had a mixed meal before the workout with ample carbs. And yes I realise that not everyone wants to or can have a pre workout meal.

[rjoylo2008]

Cool read. Just threw these in my BB cart. I'll have to find out for myself.

https://www.bodybuilding.com/store/m...5E9169E906B035

https://www.bodybuilding.com/store/g...aminolast.html

In all my years never took the bait.

[Misctake7]

I'm not sure if I've seen them all but am I right in saying that they tested intra workout carbs in a fasted state?

I would expect that the benefits disappears when you've had a mixed meal before the workout with ample carbs. And yes I realise that not everyone wants to or can have a pre workout meal.

I looked them up quite some time ago before I tried intra carbs. Not sure if I've seen fasted or both. However even with a preworkout carb meal, digestion rates alone will indicate those meals themselves aren't exactly fueling your workouts and will take several hours to get broken down in your system. Food from the day before has a bigger impact than what you eat before a workout.

However a fast digesting carb that keeps insulin levels steady like HBCD is so fast and easily digested that your body will be feeling it during the workout. The type of workout and how your body responds to carbs would be how I'd determine if it's worth incorporating. Most people have no idea how to actually train hard. A short workout for someone that doesn't know how to train hard, they wouldn't need carbs. People that have a strong insulin resistance or carbs make them crash also shouldn't have intra workout carbs. But anybody that knows how to train hard and train for 1.5 hours or longer, carbs can have a huge benefit to performance.

I'm undulating my calories and training right now and switched from a low volume, high intensity progressive overload approach to high volume and not pushing progressive overload for the last 2 weeks. Took intra workout carbs out of my protocol and just having ~50g carbs in my preworkout meal. Can't even tell you how much of a difference it makes on how long I can train for, how long I can keep the weights high before dropping down.

Talk to any of the other members on this site like Ben, Moo, Douge, KDD who utilize intra workout carbs. 2 of those 4 aren't forum reps and neither am I. Think we would waste money on something that doesn't make our workouts better? Ben doesn't take a preworkout meal but KDD and I do.

Lol, that may have come off as a rant. I just like to be detailed on reasoning

[Mrpb]

I looked them up quite some time ago before I tried intra carbs. Not sure if I've seen fasted or both. However even with a preworkout carb meal, digestion rates alone will indicate those meals themselves aren't exactly fueling your workouts and will take several hours to get broken down in your system. Food from the day before has a bigger impact than what you eat before a workout.

Carbs the night before is important for glycogen levels. But pre workout is also important. If you eat carbohydrates you'll typically see blood sugar levels rise within ~30 minutes, even with slow digesting carbs. I expect all the studies that show benefits to intra workout carbs used subjects in a fasted state or semi fasted state (no pre workout nutrition).

I'm only interested in the scientific argument by the way. If it's working for you that's great and that's what's important for you of course.

On a similar note, I expect there will never be a study showing benefits to intra workout AAs when people had a protein rich meal before their workout.

[BenBlue]

All this talk of intra workout BCAA's and if they are beneficial or not when anybody wanting guaranteed intraworkout benefits can resort to carbs + a whole protein source like hydro whey which sits easily in the stomach. Unflavored hydro and let the carbs flavor the intra workout and it's perfectly fine. That way you aren't leaving anything to question by spending a couple extra bucks.

Hold on now bro, you're making way too much sense

Seems like the BCAA supporters actively dodge this point. All of the "benefits" they've described are covered by adequate protein intake, because...wait for it....protein is loaded with BCAAs.

How are some people still not getting this?

[BenBlue]

I looked them up quite some time ago before I tried intra carbs. Not sure if I've seen fasted or both. However even with a preworkout carb meal, digestion rates alone will indicate those meals themselves aren't exactly fueling your workouts and will take several hours to get broken down in your system. Food from the day before has a bigger impact than what you eat before a workout.

However a fast digesting carb that keeps insulin levels steady like HBCD is so fast and easily digested that your body will be feeling it during the workout. The type of workout and how your body responds to carbs would be how I'd determine if it's worth incorporating. Most people have no idea how to actually train hard. A short workout for someone that doesn't know how to train hard, they wouldn't need carbs. People that have a strong insulin resistance or carbs make them crash also shouldn't have intra workout carbs. But anybody that knows how to train hard and train for 1.5 hours or longer, carbs can have a huge benefit to performance.

I'm undulating my calories and training right now and switched from a low volume, high intensity progressive overload approach to high volume and not pushing progressive overload for the last 2 weeks. Took intra workout carbs out of my protocol and just having ~50g carbs in my preworkout meal. Can't even tell you how much of a difference it makes on how long I can train for, how long I can keep the weights high before dropping down.

Talk to any of the other members on this site like Ben, Moo, Douge, KDD who utilize intra workout carbs. 2 of those 4 aren't forum reps and neither am I. Think we would waste money on something that doesn't make our workouts better? Ben doesn't take a preworkout meal but KDD and I do.

Lol, that may have come off as a rant. I just like to be detailed on reasoning

I can speak only from personal experience, and yes, peri workout carbs has been making a difference for me both in terms of performance, as well as recovery and muscular/strength gains. Of course, this is personal experience, but many others report the same results, and there have been studies demonstrating this as well. I questioned it for a while thinking that adequate carb intake, period, would have me covered. I train first thing in the morning, and used to go in with nothing in my system but what I ate the night before. It's also important to note, I've always had a habit of backloading much of my calories; I eat a lot at night, carbs included. Since incorporating dextrin pre and intra, I've notice a big difference.

[Mike McCandless]

One of the 20+ studies I've funded was on Hydro Whey vs WPC80. Conclusion, basically no difference. If you want to go that route, just use regular whey.

[BULLandTERRIER]

So the studies that support the fact intraworkout carbs increase performance are B.S.?

All relevant studies supporting the beneficial effect of intraworkout carbs/bcaa/protein were done on endurance athletes.

The scientific research on glycogen levels during typical resistance training shows lower muscle glycogen levels by about 30-40%.

Resistance training primarily depends on the phosphocreatine and glycolytic systems. As long as glycogen stores are sufficient (preworkout meal/shake and/or the meals on the day before workout) there will be no benefits of intraworkout carbs/protein.

Data even shows that waiting longer before ingesting carbs causes glycogen supercompensation, but that is probably relevant for extreme endurance athletes.

The mythical postworkout anabolic window has been debunked, but the good fellas from the supplement industry created even more mythical intraworkout anabolic window, take a guess why.

The whole purpose of BB training is to create metabolic stress and muscle damage which will force them to grow and become stronger.

IMHO, trying to cause as much damage on the muscles as possible and AT THE VERY SAME TIME taking bcaa/hydro/leucine/whatever ... trying to "protect" them is counterproductive and kinda schizophrenic.

As of now, we still don't fully understand the mechanisms behind muscle growth, but what we do know is ... As long as you're eating enough protein/calories, macro's and micro's, during the day, the only thing you should do intraworkout is to push the limits and drink water

The point is, even if there's some small benefits of intra protein/carbs, it still doesn't matter much in the long run.

[Misctake7]

One of the 20+ studies I've funded was on Hydro Whey vs WPC80. Conclusion, basically no difference. If you want to go that route, just use regular whey.

I agree. Hydro is easier on the stomach for me, which is why I use it.

[Misctake7]

All relevant studies supporting the beneficial effect of intraworkout carbs/bcaa/protein were done on endurance athletes.

The scientific research on glycogen levels during typical resistance training shows lower muscle glycogen levels by about 30-40%.

Resistance training primarily depends on the phosphocreatine and glycolytic systems. As long as glycogen stores are sufficient (preworkout meal/shake and/or the meals on the day before workout) there will be no benefits of intraworkout carbs/protein.

Data even shows that waiting longer before ingesting carbs causes glycogen supercompensation, but that is probably relevant for extreme endurance athletes.

The mythical postworkout anabolic window has been debunked, but the good fellas from the supplement industry created even more mythical intraworkout anabolic window, take a guess why.

The whole purpose of BB training is to create metabolic stress and muscle damage which will force them to grow and become stronger.

IMHO, trying to cause as much damage on the muscles as possible and AT THE VERY SAME TIME taking bcaa/hydro/leucine/whatever ... trying to "protect" them is counterproductive and kinda schizophrenic.

As of now, we still don't fully understand the mechanisms behind muscle growth, but what we do know is ... As long as you're eating enough protein/calories, macro's and micro's, during the day, the only thing you should do intraworkout is to push the limits and drink water

The point is, even if there's some small benefits of intra protein/carbs, it still doesn't matter much in the long run.

You're entitled to your opinion.

You mention even if it has a small benefit, it won't matter much in a long run. If it has a small benefit, it won't matter much in a short time but keep implementing it over a long period of time and that small benefit adds up.

Literature suggests performance diminishes roughly around 90mins into an exercise session due to glycogen depletion kicking in. For those truly training hard and for long sessions are the ones that will benefit.

You mentioned it's your opinion that it's not optimal for this intra workout approach because you want to maximize muscular damage to help build more. The reason I take this besides a performance boost from the carbs is to begin the recovery process immediately. A recent study was released and posted on here and discussed that protein intake immediately following a training session did yield more growth than waiting longer to get a meal in. Again, for people wanting to take advantage of all these small things are who this would be applicable to. And like I said above, doing the small things over a long period of time do add up vs not doing them at all.

If this thread is still relevant when I get back to my work computer on Monday, I'll try and use the broken search function on here to find that thread with the study in. Or if OT or Lucia read this post before then, they might know the study in particular. I remember we all were discussing nutrient timing in that thread.

[Misctake7]

Carbs the night before is important for glycogen levels. But pre workout is also important. If you eat carbohydrates you'll typically see blood sugar levels rise within ~30 minutes, even with slow digesting carbs. I expect all the studies that show benefits to intra workout carbs used subjects in a fasted state or semi fasted state (no pre workout nutrition).

I'm only interested in the scientific argument by the way. If it's working for you that's great and that's what's important for you of course.

On a similar note, I expect there will never be a study showing benefits to intra workout AAs when people had a protein rich meal before their workout.

I believe this study looked at being fasted, preworkout meal only, preworkout meal + intra workout carbs. Fatigue took longer to kick in for those with pre and intra workout carbs. Not being as fatigued will translate into better performance over a longer period of time.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/1757304/

[TheFugitive]

We can post studies all day long and still accomplish nothing. It comes down to the user, either you find them beneficial or you don't. Also, why are we always relying on others instead of ourselves?

[eatyourspinach]

We can post studies all day long and still accomplish nothing. It comes down to the user, either you find them beneficial or you don't. Also, we are we always relying on others instead of ourselves?

That's fine but just don't refute a study with n=1 experience.

[TheFugitive]

That's fine but just don't refute a study with n=1 experience.

Remember one thing, everyone has an agenda

[Mrpb]

The whole purpose of BB training is to create metabolic stress and muscle damage which will force them to grow and become stronger.

As you probably know it's controversial whether metabolic stress and muscle damage are really important to muscle growth.

However, there's good data showing that mechanical tension is the main driver of muscle growth.

IMHO, trying to cause as much damage on the muscles as possible and AT THE VERY SAME TIME taking bcaa/hydro/leucine/whatever ... trying to "protect" them is counterproductive and kinda schizophrenic.

If it were truly counterproductive, having a pre workout protein feeding would also be disadvantageous, since there will be amino acids in the bloodstream for several hours.

Several studies have shown benefits of pre workout protein and that pre workout protein can be just as effective as post workout protein.

Now I totally agree with you that intra workout protein is completely unnecessary, assuming people had a protein rich meal or shake in the 1-2 hours before their workout.

I believe this study looked at being fasted, preworkout meal only, preworkout meal + intra workout carbs. Fatigue took longer to kick in for those with pre and intra workout carbs. Not being as fatigued will translate into better performance over a longer period of time.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/1757304/

Cycling endurance... sure. My interest is in lifting.

[OT2000]

Remember one thing, everyone has an agenda

Like you being a company rep with a top selling bcaa product? Or maybe it's all an conspiracy