BCAAS ineffective in isolation

[kissdadookie]

This is awesome. Jim lead the study on Xtend back in 09, which Fug now wants everyone to recognize. At least that study was using 14g of BCAA's, along with other ingredients (Xtend isn't just bcaa's), to look at response. It's cool that fug is now humble enough to recognize Xtend as the only studied bcaa product that he believes in!

I see what you did there Mike :P

[NEBinAK]

Lmao

[Mrpb]

So, pretty much like every other nutrient or supplement. None of them have "maximal" response without combining with something else.

Any protein powder that contains enough leucine can maximise MPS. Even wheat protein: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27440260
4 gram leucine + 6 gram protein from whey also maximises MPS.
10 gram EAA also maximises MPS.

Maximising MPS at age > 40 and/or after full body workouts seems to require higher dosages.

What studies have they performed on their own involving any sort of supplementation? I believe the overwhelming work they've done is meta analysis.

https://peerj.com/articles/2825.pdf

Practically all training studies by Schoenfeld involve post workout supplementation.

For example: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25932981

[eatyourspinach]

Who says they're not stimulating MPS?

22% compared to placebo is better than nothing I suppose

[NoCarbsNoSugar]

Jim Stoppani is no longer credible because he sells amino acids?

No, but the last article I read by him, posted on bb.com a few days ago, said that "BCAA is a source of energy" during your workout. I stopped reading his article at that point and moved on to something else.

[Mrpb]

22% compared to placebo is better than nothing I suppose

Interesting detail about the study: in more than half the guys the BCAAs did nothing, not even better than placebo (water with a little bit of sugar).

Jim Stoppani is no longer credible because he sells amino acids?

His "study" on BCAAs never made it through publication. No wonder, guys with a high amount of LBM gaining 9 pounds of muscle in 8 weeks, while going from 9% to 7% body fat. You'd have to be pretty gullible to buy that.

Whey and EAAs are always more potent than BCAAs, no exception.

[TheFugitive]

No, but the last article I read by him, posted on bb.com a few days ago, said that "BCAA is a source of energy" during your workout. I stopped reading his article at that point and moved on to something else.

Something like this?

Branched-Chain Amino Acids are an essential class of amino acids. They specialize in helping your body produce insulin, which helps your body turn sugars into energy.

[Rushie]

Thread title is misleading. Nowhere in the article did I see them say "ineffective". What they said was:



So, pretty much like every other nutrient or supplement. None of them have "maximal" response without combining with something else. That doesn't mean they're not worth using.

At least someone read the actual quotes in the OP. It seems you are in vast minority.

[OT2000]

Branched-Chain Amino Acids are an essential class of amino acids. They specialize in helping your body produce insulin, which helps your body turn sugars into energy.

They play key roles in many physiological and metabolic processes. This is pretty well known and doesn't need nor warrant supplemental Bcaas for these functions to occur.

[TheFugitive]

They play key roles in many physiological and metabolic processes. This is pretty well known and doesn't need nor warrant supplemental Bcaas for these functions to occur.

Why you up so late?

[NoCarbsNoSugar]

Something like this?

Branched-Chain Amino Acids are an essential class of amino acids. They specialize in helping your body produce insulin, which helps your body turn sugars into energy.

No.
Something more along these lines:

One common use is as an immediate energy source, particularly during intense training sessions. The more intense and the longer the workout, the more BCAAs will be called upon to be used for fuel. This is exactly why I include a full 6-gram dose of BCAAs in Pre JYM

But I am not here to trash on Stoppani.
Nor on you.

I don't know if I can agree that a serving of 6g of BCAAs (or twice as much for that matter) is going to provide "more energy" for a workout though.

Cheers.

[OT2000]

Why you up so late?

Finishing up some work stuff. I napped earlier and will return soon.

[Goingviking]

Thing is that most people with good diets will have all the complete amino acids circulating in their body all day, so the point of BCAA's is to spike the Leucine component of the complete amino acid equation in between meals and/or pre/post workout. Luecine is the main amino acid that drives protein synthesis.

Amino acids do not need to be consumed in complete form, and can be combined within several hours of each other. I am not saying you would be better served with BCAA's than Whey shakes or whole meals, but the BCAA's seem to have some value for people not eating every 3-4 hours, or when in a deficit where high protein numbers may impact calorie count.

[Mrpb]

At least someone read the actual quotes in the OP. It seems you are in vast minority.

I haven't read it. I prefer reading the actual study and interpreting the data for myself.

I would suggest the same to everyone else.

Blog posts and quotes are prone to misinterpretations.

In case anyone missed it, here's the actual study: http://journal.frontiersin.org/artic...017.00390/full

Note that the BCAAs failed to outperform sugar water in more than half the participants.

[Mike McCandless]

Once again, for those that failed reading comprehension, when using an under dosed amount of a supplement in the wrong context, you shouldn't be surprised when it doesn't yield an ideal result. Crayons will be handed out later. lol

[LoudyRowdy]

Once again, for those that failed reading comprehension, when using an under dosed amount of a supplement in the wrong context, you shouldn't be surprised when it doesn't yield an ideal result. Crayons will be handed out later. lol

[Mrpb]

For those unaware: BCAAs have failed to show meaningful benefits in any context or in any dose for people who were consuming sufficient protein (>0.8 gram protein per lb).

[BenBlue]

For those unaware: BCAAs have failed to show meaningful benefits in any context or in any dose for people who were consuming sufficient protein (>0.8 gram protein per lb).

Far as I know, this is exactly right. Wondering if any of the company men have any data to refute this point?

[Mrpb]

Far as I know, this is exactly right. Wondering if any of the company men have any data to refute this point?

As far as I know the only data going against it was from Jim Stoppani but it never made it through peer review. The data was questionable to say the least.

[OT2000]

As far as I know the only data going against it was from Jim Stoppani but it never made it through peer review. The data was questionable to say the least.

I could never find the diet protocol with that study. Maybe I was looking at it wrong or something. All in all what I read was highly questionable just like the last company funded bcaa study.

[LoudyRowdy]

All in all what I read was highly questionable just like the last company funded bcaa study.

O'rly

[Mike McCandless]

Oh boy, the funding study part. I love when people who've never been apart of a study in any way shape or form are now experts on how studies are done.

BTW, I'm unaware of a study that controlled for adequate protein intake for an athlete, had a challenging training protocol and dosed bcaa's properly that has been published. Of course Xtend was never JUST a BCAA formula . I guess millions of people taking it are all sheep.

[OT2000]

Oh boy, the funding study part. I love when people who've never been apart of a study in any way shape or form are now experts on how studies are done.

Not that it matters, but more than the supplement industry performs clinical studies but you know this. It's part of the reason why my wife and I moved to the largest medical research area outside of San Fran. So yes, some people are experts or rather continuing in their field.

I would be interested in the diet protocol of the original Xtend study because I can't find it. I am sure we could give the benefit of the doubt if we knew the full protocol.

[Mike McCandless]

I suggest contacting the owners of Scivation lol

[Goingviking]

Far as I know, this is exactly right. Wondering if any of the company men have any data to refute this point?

Not a company man, but I use this as a resource often:

https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/arti...550-2783-11-20


Branched chain amino acids
Branched chain amino acids (BCAA’s) make up 14-18% of amino acids in skeletal muscle proteins and are quite possibly the most widely used supplements among natural bodybuilders [165]. Of the BCAA’s, leucine is of particular interest because it has been shown to stimulate protein synthesis to an equal extent as a mixture of all amino acids [166]. However, ingestion of leucine alone can lead to depletion of plasma valine and isoleucine; therefore, all three amino acids need to be consumed to prevent plasma depletion of any one of the BCAA’s [167]. Recently, the safe upper limit of leucine was set at 550 mg/kg bodyweight/day in adult men; however, future studies are needed to determine the safe upper limit for both other populations and a mixture of all 3 BCAA’s [168].

Numerous acute studies in animals and humans have shown that consumption of either essential amino acids, BCAA’s, or leucine either at rest or following exercise increases skeletal muscle protein synthesis, decreases muscle protein degradation, or both [27, 169, 170, 171, 172]; however, there are few long-term studies of BCAA supplementation in resistance-trained athletes. Stoppani et al. [173] supplemented trained subjects with either 14 g BCAAs, whey protein, or a carbohydrate placebo for eight weeks during a periodized strength training routine. After training the BCAA group had a 4 kg increase in lean mass, 2% decrease in body fat percentage, and 6 kg increase in bench press 10 repetition maximum. All changes were significant compared to the other groups. However, it should be noted that this data is only available as an abstract and has yet to undergo the rigors of peer-review.

The use of BCAA’s between meals may also be beneficial to keep protein synthesis elevated. Recent data from animal models suggest that consumption of BCAA’s between meals can overcome the refractory response in protein synthesis that occurs when plasma amino acids are elevated, yet protein synthesis is reduced [174]. However, long-term human studies examining the effects of a diet in which BCAA’s are consumed between meals on lean mass and strength have not been done to date. It should also be noted that BCAA metabolism in humans and rodents differ and the results from rodent studies with BCAA’s may not translate in human models [175]. Therefore, long-term studies are needed in humans to determine the effectiveness of this practice.

Based on the current evidence, it is clear BCAA’s stimulate protein synthesis acutely and one study [173] has indicated that BCAA’s may be able to increase lean mass and strength when added to a strength training routine; however, additional long-term studies are needed to determine the effects of BCAA’s on lean mass and strength in trained athletes. In addition, studies are needed on the effectiveness of BCAA supplementation in individuals following a vegetarian diet in which consumption of high-quality proteins are low as this may be population that may benefit from BCAA consumption. Furthermore, the effects of BCAA ingestion between meals needs to be further investigated in a long-term human study.

I agree that EAA's make more sense though, but I pair BCAA's with a collagen supplement I take.

[LoudyRowdy]

if we knew the full protocol.

Cant....cuz...PDF

[BULLandTERRIER]

I agree that EAA's make more sense though

You know what makes even more sense?

Eat enough whole protein during the day, stay hydrated, train hard but smart and enjoy life.

[OT2000]

Not a company man, but I use this as a resource often:

https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/arti...550-2783-11-20


Branched chain amino acids
Branched chain amino acids (BCAA’s) make up 14-18% of amino acids in skeletal muscle proteins and are quite possibly the most widely used supplements among natural bodybuilders [165]. Of the BCAA’s, leucine is of particular interest because it has been shown to stimulate protein synthesis to an equal extent as a mixture of all amino acids [166]. However, ingestion of leucine alone can lead to depletion of plasma valine and isoleucine; therefore, all three amino acids need to be consumed to prevent plasma depletion of any one of the BCAA’s [167]. Recently, the safe upper limit of leucine was set at 550 mg/kg bodyweight/day in adult men; however, future studies are needed to determine the safe upper limit for both other populations and a mixture of all 3 BCAA’s [168].

Numerous acute studies in animals and humans have shown that consumption of either essential amino acids, BCAA’s, or leucine either at rest or following exercise increases skeletal muscle protein synthesis, decreases muscle protein degradation, or both [27, 169, 170, 171, 172]; however, there are few long-term studies of BCAA supplementation in resistance-trained athletes. Stoppani et al. [173] supplemented trained subjects with either 14 g BCAAs, whey protein, or a carbohydrate placebo for eight weeks during a periodized strength training routine. After training the BCAA group had a 4 kg increase in lean mass, 2% decrease in body fat percentage, and 6 kg increase in bench press 10 repetition maximum. All changes were significant compared to the other groups. However, it should be noted that this data is only available as an abstract and has yet to undergo the rigors of peer-review.

The use of BCAA’s between meals may also be beneficial to keep protein synthesis elevated. Recent data from animal models suggest that consumption of BCAA’s between meals can overcome the refractory response in protein synthesis that occurs when plasma amino acids are elevated, yet protein synthesis is reduced [174]. However, long-term human studies examining the effects of a diet in which BCAA’s are consumed between meals on lean mass and strength have not been done to date. It should also be noted that BCAA metabolism in humans and rodents differ and the results from rodent studies with BCAA’s may not translate in human models [175]. Therefore, long-term studies are needed in humans to determine the effectiveness of this practice.

Based on the current evidence, it is clear BCAA’s stimulate protein synthesis acutely and one study [173] has indicated that BCAA’s may be able to increase lean mass and strength when added to a strength training routine; however, additional long-term studies are needed to determine the effects of BCAA’s on lean mass and strength in trained athletes. In addition, studies are needed on the effectiveness of BCAA supplementation in individuals following a vegetarian diet in which consumption of high-quality proteins are low as this may be population that may benefit from BCAA consumption. Furthermore, the effects of BCAA ingestion between meals needs to be further investigated in a long-term human study.

I agree that EAA's make more sense though, but I pair BCAA's with a collagen supplement I take.

Those same authors said the following as well after:

"Some also questioned my inclusion of BCAA’s, even though I only made a couched recommendation for very specific conditions. It is true that BCAA’s are one of the most frequently used supplements for bodybuilding [15], which is odd considering there is only one study directly relevant to muscle and strength development that supports their use [22]. This popularity is even less founded considering this study was a poster presentation rather than peer reviewed journal article, and considering that dietary controls weren’t put in place to account for total daily protein intake (which is important since a high protein diet contains a high content of BCAA). Outside of this one poster presentation that should be interpreted with caution, there is scant evidence to support BCAA use. "

[Misctake7]

All this talk of intra workout BCAA's and if they are beneficial or not when anybody wanting guaranteed intraworkout benefits can resort to carbs + a whole protein source like hydro whey which sits easily in the stomach. Unflavored hydro and let the carbs flavor the intra workout and it's perfectly fine. That way you aren't leaving anything to question by spending a couple extra bucks.

[Mike McCandless]

There are plenty of other factors that can impact your training. BCAA's have been shown to reduce fatigue, muscle damage, perceived effort and pain sensation. Improves recovery and immune system response. A lot of the early date on bcaa's were endurance athletes. Salinas did a meta on the studies and came to the above conclusions. But lets have everyone talk about mps.