Pre-Sleep Protein (study)

[WillBrink]

Good review on eating some protein before sleep to optimize muscle protein synthesis rates during overnight recovery.

Pre-Sleep Protein Ingestion to Improve the Skeletal Muscle Adaptive Response to Exercise Training

Nutrients 2016, 8(12), 763;

Abstract

Protein ingestion following resistance-type exercise stimulates muscle protein synthesis rates, and enhances the skeletal muscle adaptive response to prolonged resistance-type exercise training. As the adaptive response to a single bout of resistance exercise extends well beyond the first couple of hours of post-exercise recovery, recent studies have begun to investigate the impact of the timing and distribution of protein ingestion during more prolonged recovery periods. Recent work has shown that overnight muscle protein synthesis rates are restricted by the level of amino acid availability.

Protein ingested prior to sleep is effectively digested and absorbed, and thereby stimulates muscle protein synthesis rates during overnight recovery. When applied during a prolonged period of resistance-type exercise training, protein supplementation prior to sleep can further augment gains in muscle mass and strength. Recent studies investigating the impact of pre-sleep protein ingestion suggest that at least 40 g of protein is required to display a robust increase in muscle protein synthesis rates throughout overnight sleep.

Furthermore, prior exercise allows more of the pre-sleep protein-derived amino acids to be utilized for de novo muscle protein synthesis during sleep. In short, pre-sleep protein ingestion represents an effective dietary strategy to improve overnight muscle protein synthesis, thereby improving the skeletal muscle adaptive response to exercise training.

Full text:

http://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/8/12/763

[Mrpb]

Nice. Jorn's new review.

Reading today.

[SubWooferCooker]

It seems like the more times you can stimulate MPS every day the better, Whats the highest frequency feeding study that has been done? I am sure i have seen a few high frequency studies but they were with lowish doses of protein iirc, I would love to see a study of 30-40g every 3 hours compared to the same amount every 4-6 hours for example.

I also think that consuming protein during the middle of the night would also be beneficial but hugely impracticable at the same time.

[gbullock32]

Great post, will read on my days off.

[Mrpb]

It seems like the more times you can stimulate MPS every day the better, Whats the highest frequency feeding study that has been done? I am sure i have seen a few high frequency studies but they were with lowish doses of protein iirc, I would love to see a study of 30-40g every 3 hours compared to the same amount every 4-6 hours for example.

I also think that consuming protein during the middle of the night would also be beneficial but hugely impracticable at the same time.

The only relevant study I'm aware of that used 3 hour spacing was done with whey. Should work with normal meals though.

Stu Phillips speculated that 4 meals + a pre bed feeding would be enough to maximise 24h MPS. Nothing wrong with 6 feedings though, the benefit, if any, would be marginal.

The review mentioned in this thread says: "Therefore, an effective pattern of daily protein intake distribution to support muscle protein synthesis is to provide at least 20 g of protein with each main meal with no more than 4–5 h between meals."

[Mrpb]

Interesting for those looking for maximum results: 40 gram protein is probably required to maximise overnight MPS.

"As we anticipated that 30 g of pre-sleep protein might not be sufficient to adequately increase overnight muscle protein synthesis rates, we included a third treatment in which 2 g crystalline leucine was added to the 30 g bolus of protein. The addition of supplemental free leucine to a suboptimal amount of protein has been shown to enhance post-exercise muscle protein synthesis rates [18,19,31,32]. Despite these previous observations, co-ingesting free leucine with 30 g of casein prior to sleep did not augment the overnight muscle protein synthetic response. Given the extended duration of overnight sleep compared to a typical postprandial period (8 vs. 4–5 h), it is tempting to speculate that larger amounts of protein (≥40 g) are required to maximize muscle protein synthesis rates during overnight sleep."

[SubWooferCooker]

Something interesting i found from one of the linked studies from this study

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22289570

"MPS in the rested leg was 65 % higher (P = 0·002) after ingestion of whey (0·040 (sem 0·003) %/h) when compared with micellar casein "

65% higher mps from whey compared to casein? Thats a hell of a lot!

If you mix casein with whey, say 20g of each will the casein slow down the digestion of the whey also? i have a big bag of casein i need to get through.

[Mrpb]

Something interesting i found from one of the linked studies from this study

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22289570

"MPS in the rested leg was 65 % higher (P = 0·002) after ingestion of whey (0·040 (sem 0·003) %/h) when compared with micellar casein "

65% higher mps from whey compared to casein? Thats a hell of a lot!

That's just a one point in time measurement. An accurate comparison would compare the area under the curve over a longer period.

There's also a study that showed higher MPS with casein vs. whey (measured over longer time).

You can mix the casein with whey, or simply have the casein alone. Not going to make an important difference probably.

[vapedup247]

Interesting for those looking for maximum results: 40 gram protein is probably required to maximise overnight MPS.

"As we anticipated that 30 g of pre-sleep protein might not be sufficient to adequately increase overnight muscle protein synthesis rates, we included a third treatment in which 2 g crystalline leucine was added to the 30 g bolus of protein. The addition of supplemental free leucine to a suboptimal amount of protein has been shown to enhance post-exercise muscle protein synthesis rates [18,19,31,32]. Despite these previous observations, co-ingesting free leucine with 30 g of casein prior to sleep did not augment the overnight muscle protein synthetic response. Given the extended duration of overnight sleep compared to a typical postprandial period (8 vs. 4–5 h), it is tempting to speculate that larger amounts of protein (≥40 g) are required to maximize muscle protein synthesis rates during overnight sleep."

Interesting, thanks for sharing the info

[SubWooferCooker]

That's just a one point in time measurement. An accurate comparison would compare the area under the curve over a longer period.

There's also a study that showed higher MPS with casein vs. whey (measured over longer time).

You can mix the casein with whey, or simply have the casein alone. Not going to make an important difference probably.

Ahh i see makes sense thanks!, so basically whey spikes MPS sooner and the tails off where as casein is more of a prolong spike which works out pretty similar over the same period of time. I never fully understand everything in these studies some of the terminology etc is alien to me lol.

[WillBrink]

Something interesting i found from one of the linked studies from this study

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22289570

"MPS in the rested leg was 65 % higher (P = 0·002) after ingestion of whey (0·040 (sem 0·003) %/h) when compared with micellar casein "

65% higher mps from whey compared to casein? Thats a hell of a lot!

If you mix casein with whey, it's called milk...

Fixed it for ya

[Mrpb]

Ahh i see makes sense thanks!, so basically whey spikes MPS sooner and the tails off where as casein is more of a prolong spike which works out pretty similar over the same period of time.

Yeah pretty much. Although if you're using casein it makes sense to take a bit more than with whey because the leucine peaks lower due to the slower digestion.

As a post workout protein a mixture of whey with casein may be ideal. This would work well for overnight protein too.

The Snijders study used 27 gram total protein overnight and that worked very well. It was half casein, half casein hydrolysate (which is fast acting like whey).
http://jn.nutrition.org/content/145/6/1178.long

Will makes a good point: dairy is already a mixture of casein and whey.

[DougyF7]

Will makes a good point: dairy is already a mixture of casein and whey.

I've always wondered if the 80% casein, 20% whey blend in milk is the optimal ratio of these two proteins and folks are spending all this time splitting them up and trying to figure out what ratio works best when it's already right there in front of them. Just my $0.02.

[SuffolkPunch]

^

Nutrisport 90+ used to have a blend of whey and casein before they messed with the formula and added a load of soy :x

[SubWooferCooker]

Fixed it for ya

Dam what happens if i mix whey & casein into milk? Alchemy? Is this the philosophers stone?

[WillBrink]

Dam what happens if i mix whey & casein into milk? Alchemy? Is this the philosophers stone?

Gainz like an Anadrol enema brah

[WillBrink]

I've always wondered if the 80% casein, 20% whey blend in milk is the optimal ratio of these two proteins and folks are spending all this time splitting them up and trying to figure out what ratio works best when it's already right there in front of them. Just my $0.02.

To add wrinkle, optimal for who? Baby cows or humans? Human breast milk is 60%/ 40% W/C, so there!

[jsmoor09]

Pardon my ignorance:

But, they state that participants received either a protein/calorie containing supplement or a placebo without protein/calories?. Did they make up for the difference in protein/caloric intake throughout the day?

And if so, are we measuring total daily mps?

[Mrpb]

Pardon my ignorance:

But, they state that participants received either a protein/calorie containing supplement or a placebo without protein/calories?. Did they make up for the difference in protein/caloric intake throughout the day?

And if so, are we measuring total daily mps?

The link in the OP is to a review of several studies.

[muruku]

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journ...11954145378823



The purpose of the present study was to investigate whether whey protein (WP), casein protein (CP), carbohydrate (CHO) or a non-energy-containing placebo (PLA) consumed before sleep alters morning appetite and resting energy expenditure (REE) in active men. A total of eleven men (age: 23·6 (sem 1·0) years; body fat: 16·3 (sem 2·5) %) participated in this randomised, double-blind, cross-over study. A single dose of WP (30 g), CP (30 g), CHO (33 g) or PLA was consumed 30 min before sleep, and each trial was separated by 48–72 h. The next morning (05.00–08.00 hours), measurements of satiety, hunger and desire to eat and REE were taken. After a 30 min equilibration period, REE in the supine position was measured for 60 min. An analysis of 10 min mean intervals over the final 50 min of the measurement period was conducted. Statistical analyses were conducted using repeated-measures ANOVA for metabolic variables, and a one-way ANOVA was used for measuring changes in appetite markers. Group differences were examined by Tukey's post hoc analysis. There were no significant differences in appetite measures among the groups. There was a main group effect for REE. The predicted REE was significantly greater after consumption of the WP (8151 (sem 67) kJ/d), CP (8126 (sem 67) kJ/d) and CHO (7988 (sem 67) kJ/d) than after that of the PLA (7716 (sem 67) kJ/d, P <0·0001). There were no significant differences between the WP and CP groups in any metabolic measurements. Night-time consumption of WP, CP or CHO, in the hours close to sleep, elicits favourable effects on the next-morning metabolism when compared with that of a PLA in active young men.


^^
What are you guys thoughts on this?

[JornT]

What are you guys thoughts on this?

This is one of Mike Ormsbee's overnight studies. His research interest is the effect of pre-sleep feeding on metabolism. While we are focused on muscle growth/performance, his work is more focused on metabolic health. So far, he has observed no advserse effects of pre-sleep feeding on metabolic health. In this particular study, overnight feeding actually improved resting energy expenditure in the morning, which could be seen as beneficial for weight loss (resting morning energy expenditure is just a part of total EE in a day ofcourse).

In other words, there's no reason why you wouldn't want to take some extra protein prior to sleep for some extra gains.

[muruku]

This is one of Mike Ormsbee's overnight studies. His research interest is the effect of pre-sleep feeding on metabolism. While we are focused on muscle growth/performance, his work is more focused on metabolic health. So far, he has observed no advserse effects of pre-sleep feeding on metabolic health. In this particular study, overnight feeding actually improved resting energy expenditure in the morning, which could be seen as beneficial for weight loss (resting morning energy expenditure is just a part of total EE in a day ofcourse).

In other words, there's no reason why you wouldn't want to take some extra protein prior to sleep for some extra gains.

thanks.

[jsmoor09]

This is one of Mike Ormsbee's overnight studies. His research interest is the effect of pre-sleep feeding on metabolism. While we are focused on muscle growth/performance, his work is more focused on metabolic health. So far, he has observed no advserse effects of pre-sleep feeding on metabolic health. In this particular study, overnight feeding actually improved resting energy expenditure in the morning, which could be seen as beneficial for weight loss (resting morning energy expenditure is just a part of total EE in a day ofcourse).

In other words, there's no reason why you wouldn't want to take some extra protein prior to sleep for some extra gains.

But are there benefits that wouldn't be seen with taking the same protein at a different time in the day? I don't think they show a calorie or time matched control.

If the only goal is to say it isn't bad, ok. But, I'm not sure this breaks ground.

[Mrpb]

But are there benefits that wouldn't be seen with taking the same protein at a different time in the day? I don't think they show a calorie or time matched control.

No one knows exactly how much difference it will make but consider this: the protein supplemented group in the Snijders study only received 27 gram protein extra, on top of an average protein intake of ~1.4 gram per kg. On average they had more than double (!) the gains in actual muscle size measured by biopsy, the most accurate way to measure muscle. Do you think it paid of to have that supplement before bed? It is very likely. No other study has found such a large difference in gains from 27 gram protein.



If you want to maximise gains it's smart to eat protein at every meal opportunity. Instead of choosing between day and night time, have both.

PS. If you're in your first year of lifting it probably will not make much difference how you spread your protein. This becomes more important for people who have been lifting longer and older people.

[jsmoor09]

No one knows exactly how much difference it will make but consider this: the protein supplemented group in the Snijders study only received 27 gram protein extra, on top of an average protein intake of ~1.4 gram per kg. On average they had more than double (!) the gains in actual muscle size measured by biopsy, the most accurate way to measure muscle. Do you think it paid of to have that supplement before bed? It is very likely. No other study has found such a large difference in gains from 27 gram protein.



If you want to maximise gains it's smart to eat protein at every meal opportunity. Instead of choosing between day and night time, have both.

PS. If you're in your first year of lifting it probably will not make much difference how you spread your protein. This becomes more important for people who have been lifting longer and older people.

I'm more interested in the science than my own gains right now.
I think it paid to have the supplement. But they're trying to claim the before bed matters.

They didn't give the 27 grams at a different time of the day to others.

They didn't even control for total protein or calorie intake.
You're talking 2,268 additional g of protein and 9,000+ additional calories.

There's no basis for saying the time matters and not the amount.

[Mrpb]

I'm more interested in the science than my own gains right now.
I think it paid to have the supplement. But they're trying to claim the before bed matters.

No they did not actually claim that. I suggest you read the full text.

They didn't give the 27 grams at a different time of the day to others.

Of course. I was already aware of that. My point is that the difference in gains was much larger than the 27 gram protein explains. This gives credibility to the idea that the timing paid off. Of course this is still speculation but if you're aware of the totality of research you'll see that it makes sense.

[NegOP4NoDeliver]

Love your stuff Will. Any new vids coming out soon?

[x-ray vision]

To add wrinkle, optimal for who? Baby cows or humans? Human breast milk is 60%/ 40% W/C, so there!

So said your first Google hit. Then there's this:

The whey:casein ratio of human milk is 70:30 as compared to a ratio of 18:82 for cow milk.

https://www.hawaii.edu/medicine/pedi...xt/s02c03.html

As a consequence, there is no “fixed” ratio of whey to casein in human milk; it varies throughout lactation (Figure 2⇓). The frequently cited ratio of 60:40 is an approximation of the ratio during the normal course of lactation, but it does vary from ≈80:20 in early lactation to 50:50 in late lactation. Because the amino acid compositions of caseins and whey proteins differ, the amino acid content of human milk also varies during lactation. This is rarely considered when estimating requirements.

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/77/6/1537S.full

[WillBrink]

Love your stuff Will. Any new vids coming out soon?

I have been slacking big time on the vids I know!

So said your first Google hit. Then there's this:

Well color me corrected brah. The point only being, the ratio is quite different between cow juice and human and intended more as humor than relevant per se. To an adult human, unlikely to have physiological relevance to gainz is my guess.

[jsmoor09]

No they did not actually claim that. I suggest you read the full text.


Of course. I was already aware of that. My point is that the difference in gains was much larger than the 27 gram protein explains. This gives credibility to the idea that the timing paid off. Of course this is still speculation but if you're aware of the totality of research you'll see that it makes sense.

How can you reasonably conclude or ask anyone to conclude it's larger than a variable explains when all the variables weren't controlled for.

They state they want to prove that it is "additive," but for this to be true, you'd have to prove that the same protein/caloric intake at a different point in the day wouldn't give the same net effect.
If the only point is that bed time is another opportunity to eat--I think we knew that.
If their only aim is to say more calories and more protein=more growth, again I think we had that down.

Does it hurt? No. It is anymore optimal than doing it a different way? I'm not seeing this as proof.