Carb intake question

[psalms1441]

hello all

Been on a low-carb diet going on two weeks. As of Tuesday morning I'm 233 pounds and 20% body fat. My normal diet is under 30 g of carbs a day with a carb spike meal in the middle of the week of 100 g and then about 200 g meal on Saturday night. As of Tuesday im down 6.6lbs. I skipped my mid week carb spike because I felt it was unneeded. My question is should I do a 24 hr carb load maybe 700g or just have say a 200-300g meal Saturday night? I'm not craving carbs or anything just looking for the benefits of the carbs. Ultimately of course my goal is max fatloss with max muscle retention. Here is my workout schedule

Sun mon tues HIT mentzer/Yates style wed thur fri moderate reps weights and tempo to burn more glycogen.

Fast reply is needed.

Thanks guys and gals

[JWoodCF10]

Eating carbs is a waste of time if you are trying to loose weight.

Stay low carb all the time, and just burn your fat away.

I have no issues boxing / kickboxing while running purely on ketones. Once adapted you can train all you want.

[psalms1441]

Yeah I'm a vet. It's not an issue of needing the carbs to perform its more of the anabolic response to the carbs. I agree carbs arent needed for performance but what about muscle maintanence?

[JWoodCF10]

Totally unnecessary for muscle maintenance. You can bulk very successfully on a keto diet, and it is one of the most muscle sparing diets you can be on.

There is a role to play for cyclical or targeted ketotic diets, but they are very much competition orientated and where cutting is not the primary goal.

[psalms1441]

Hmmm that's weird cuz I know a lot of natural bodybuilders who used the ckd to cut. Anyways I must came to the wrong forum cuz I'm not really on a "keto" diet since I'm not intending to be in ketosis. Maybe I wasn't clear enough with my post. Thanks for your theory and approach

[SpencerCornelia]

Carb cycling worked amazingly for me. Seems that you'd be better off sticking to lower carb days and zero carb days more often

[JWoodCF10]

Hmmm that's weird cuz I know a lot of natural bodybuilders who used the ckd to cut. Anyways I must came to the wrong forum cuz I'm not really on a "keto" diet since I'm not intending to be in ketosis. Maybe I wasn't clear enough with my post. Thanks for your theory and approach

If your main goal is to burn off a significant portion of your body fat, then staying in a state that allows this to happen is the fastest and easiest route to success.

If you want to see how your muscles will look when full and flushed, as you would as a BB, then you need to replenish the glycogen and water in the cells. This is why is works really well for them.

CKD and TKD diets all have their place and are very good in specific situations, same with SKD none of them are perfect, and all can be adapted to give you the best results.

[RU4A69]

Just to give you an idea of how insane those carb #'s are: Ronnie Coleman ate 200gms of carbs daily for a couple of months before his competition, and I'm sure there are 230+lb pros who go even lower than that. (and this is with the typical 3 hours of incline walking that they do)

A good "carb-up" for us genetically average endos is more like 50-100gms carbs, and that's once a week.

[xJellyBirdx]

I use to preach about never carbing up. Turns out carbing up is the best way to restore leptin levels after chronic deficit or extreme deficits. Carbs have their purposes. Lean people have to cycle because they have less fat <-- less leptin and they crash out faster than someone with higher amounts of fat. The answer to your question depends on how you are getting from point A to point B.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat...or-large.html/
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat...fat-loss.html/

^read

[WolfBeast]

What I do is greens for carbs right around 35g/day. Then I have one cheat meal every 8 days.

[saw7988]

Eating carbs is a waste of time if you are trying to loose weight.

Stay low carb all the time, and just burn your fat away.

I have no issues boxing / kickboxing while running purely on ketones. Once adapted you can train all you want.

Totally unnecessary for muscle maintenance. You can bulk very successfully on a keto diet, and it is one of the most muscle sparing diets you can be on.

There is a role to play for cyclical or targeted ketotic diets, but they are very much competition orientated and where cutting is not the primary goal.

If your main goal is to burn off a significant portion of your body fat, then staying in a state that allows this to happen is the fastest and easiest route to success.

If you want to see how your muscles will look when full and flushed, as you would as a BB, then you need to replenish the glycogen and water in the cells. This is why is works really well for them.

CKD and TKD diets all have their place and are very good in specific situations, same with SKD none of them are perfect, and all can be adapted to give you the best results.

JWood, you seem to be incredibly misinformed. Regarding fat loss, this happens via a calorie deficit. A "state that allows bodyfat to happen" as you put it, is simply consuming less calories than you burn over a significant period of time. Carbing up has pros and cons, but it's relationship to fat loss is purely based on how many calories are in that carb up compared to your normal diet.

With respect to "it is one of the most muscle sparing diets you can be on," there is no evidence that it is more muscle sparing than any other diet. Muscle maintenance comes primarily from the size of the deficit, protein intake, and weight lifting regimen.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against keto (I do it myself). But don't confuse or overstate the benefits, which should mostly be psychological, appetite, and energy-related.

I use to preach about never carbing up. Turns out carbing up is the best way to restore leptin levels after chronic deficit or extreme deficits. Carbs have their purposes. Lean people have to cycle because they have less fat <-- less leptin and they crash out faster than someone with higher amounts of fat. The answer to your question depends on how you are getting from point A to point B.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat...or-large.html/
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat...fat-loss.html/

^read

It's debatable how much leptin plays a role in the importance of carb-ups. Last time I looked into this, it wasn't convincing that leptin stayed elevated long enough for the carb up to be worth it. I think carb intake and refeed frequency should be much more based on activity levels, gym performance, and the need (potentially) for glycogen replenishment.

[xJellyBirdx]

It's debatable how much leptin plays a role in the importance of carb-ups. Last time I looked into this, it wasn't convincing that leptin stayed elevated long enough for the carb up to be worth it. I think carb intake and refeed frequency should be much more based on activity levels, gym performance, and the need (potentially) for glycogen replenishment.

I'd be interested in taking a look at any material you have on the subject, but I'm not going to join the 'debatable' bandwagon. If you're on an aggressive deficit , do a 2 day carb up, and then immediately go back to an aggressive deficit, sure, I bet your leptin levels will crash pretty rapidly. In fact, I think this was discussed by Lyle. However, in a nut shell, all the research I read indicated that carbs was the best way of increasing leptin levels when they drop. I found this out when originally I thought if I ate in surplus on the weekends I could off set my deficit. I went 2 months losing 1.5lbs per week doing this and then just bottomed out and started gaining weight at same caloric intake rather than losing it. Turned out carbs are way more effective than eating in surplus of high fat (because I was keto at the time). After that I quickly changed my tune about carb ups. I'd like to add while I was losing weight on the scale, I was also seeing great results in my lifts and performance up til then running SKD with my protein intake averaging 180-200g a day.

[saw7988]

I'd be interested in taking a look at any material you have on the subject, but I'm not going to join the 'debatable' bandwagon. If you're on an aggressive deficit , do a 2 day carb up, and then immediately go back to an aggressive deficit, sure, I bet your leptin levels will crash pretty rapidly. In fact, I think this was discussed by Lyle. However, in a nut shell, all the research I read indicated that carbs was the best way of increasing leptin levels when they drop. I found this out when originally I thought if I ate in surplus on the weekends I could off set my deficit. I went 2 months losing 1.5lbs per week doing this and then just bottomed out and started gaining weight at same caloric intake rather than losing it. Turned out carbs are way more effective than eating in surplus of high fat (because I was keto at the time). After that I quickly changed my tune about carb ups. I'd like to add while I was losing weight on the scale, I was also seeing great results in my lifts and performance up til then running SKD with my protein intake averaging 180-200g a day.

Yea it's been a little while, so I honestly don't remember the details, and I'll be more than happy to find out I'm wrong. I'd really love to look into this later when I get more time though, because I think it's pretty interesting.

Your post is of course 100% correct. The problem is that it's all qualitative and not at all quantitative. Of course leptin levels drop on a deficit, but by how much? How does keto compare to standard? And then, how much does this leptin drop ACTUALLY affect metabolism? And then how long do leptin levels stay put for? All important questions to really figure out if carb ups are needed. Just the simple fact that carbs will elevate leptin is meaningless on its own.

Finally, I appreciate your anecdote, truly, but I think you have to understand if I feel that I can't really count it for anything? Just trying to be as objective and rational as possible.

EDIT: Oh and I also noticed you said a 2 day carb up. That might have more of an impact than say a 1 day refeed. This is also another parameter to explore...

[xJellyBirdx]

Yea it's been a little while, so I honestly don't remember the details, and I'll be more than happy to find out I'm wrong. I'd really love to look into this later when I get more time though, because I think it's pretty interesting.

Your post is of course 100% correct. The problem is that it's all qualitative and not at all quantitative. Of course leptin levels drop on a deficit, but by how much? How does keto compare to standard? And then, how much does this leptin drop ACTUALLY affect metabolism? And then how long do leptin levels stay put for? All important questions to really figure out if carb ups are needed. Just the simple fact that carbs will elevate leptin is meaningless on its own.

Finally, I appreciate your anecdote, truly, but I think you have to understand if I feel that I can't really count it for anything? Just trying to be as objective and rational as possible.

EDIT: Oh and I also noticed you said a 2 day carb up. That might have more of an impact than say a 1 day refeed. This is also another parameter to explore...

I could careless about the specifics because it just over complicates things. Who cares how much they drop. Some times being too objective can be a bad thing. The point in is carbs are a tool and should be utilized based on rational logic. How much and how long is all variables that change based on how someone wants to get from point A to point B.

Finally, I appreciate your anecdote, truly, but I think you have to understand if I feel that I can't really count it for anything? Just trying to be as objective and rational as possible.

^bold statement for someone who hasn't posted any literature or anything. I think I'll stand behind Lyle's work for the time being and my own experience.

[saw7988]

Ok, sounds like you're not as interested in the details as I am. That's fine. And I think carb ups, if unnecessary, are what complicates things. Learning about the details I mentioned above would be one method to discover how necessary carb ups are.

And I don't think my statement is bold at all. I think if people disregarded N=1 anecdotes more often in the nutrition world, we'd all be a lot better off.

[xJellyBirdx]

Ok, sounds like you're not as interested in the details as I am. That's fine. And I think carb ups, if unnecessary, are what complicates things. Learning about the details I mentioned above would be one method to discover how necessary carb ups are.

And I don't think my statement is bold at all. I think if people disregarded N=1 anecdotes more often in the nutrition world, we'd all be a lot better off.

I gave my story on why I changed my mind from being anti-carb. That has nothing to do with neglecting the literature provided by Lyle on the subject matter who already did the peer-review work for us. Thank you for sharing your thoughts though.

[psalms1441]

Ok guys u did actually nothing to answer my question lol the 20 year old beauty gave me the closest answer to what I was asking. Just so u know I stayed low carb Friday night until Saturday at 5pm which I started a mini carb load of 400g until I went to bed. Worked great. I got the benefits of the carbs like I expected. For carb ups or against carb ups, leptin benefits and all that had nothing to do with what I was asking. Like I said I'm a vet but I'm always looking for other people's suggestions. Im very familiar with lyles work, I done
the UD2 diet, first keto diet I did was bodyopus back in 2002. Started working out in 1997 and have committed to learn everything I can about exercise, diet and supplementation every since then. So with that being said, if you guys have any questions feel free to ask, if I don't the answer I'm not gonna pretend I do with a bunch of bioscience but I will be able to get the answer to your question. 

[xJellyBirdx]

I'm kind of surprised you are asking this question then. This is all stuff covered in UD2.0 and RFL. This is why you didn't get a specific answer fed to you on a silver spoon. The answer is open to a multitude of variables, and thus, the reason why n=1 experiments are worthy. People have similarities, but we aren't identical and why people are encouraged to try n=1 to see what works best for them. You might like to carb up for 2 days and X amount of carbs while another person might find benefits at 1 meal at X carbs. This is also why I don't believe in specifics anymore. It is easier to steer a ship in open water than it is in a confined area. You are the ship,and the more specifics you try to confine to the more confined your area gets.

[XinApoK]

JWood, you seem to be incredibly misinformed. Regarding fat loss, this happens via a calorie deficit. A "state that allows bodyfat to happen" as you put it, is simply consuming less calories than you burn over a significant period of time. Carbing up has pros and cons, but it's relationship to fat loss is purely based on how many calories are in that carb up compared to your normal diet.

With respect to "it is one of the most muscle sparing diets you can be on," there is no evidence that it is more muscle sparing than any other diet. Muscle maintenance comes primarily from the size of the deficit, protein intake, and weight lifting regimen.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against keto (I do it myself). But don't confuse or overstate the benefits, which should mostly be psychological, appetite, and energy-rel.

Please elaborate. Because calories are somewhat irrelevant on a brief refeed. Especially the 1st 24h.

[psalms1441]

I was asking to get suggestions if I did just what I know to do then I wouldn't evolve. I asked the same question on lyles forum. It's interesting to me to hear different suggestions from different people. It's kinda take in the meat spit out the bones type thing with me

[psalms1441]

Please elaborate. Because calories are somewhat irrelevant on a brief refeed. Especially the 1st 24h.

yeah man lol I just didn't want to say it

[psalms1441]

IThis is also why I don't believe in specifics anymore. It is easier to steer a ship in open water than it is in a confined area. You are the ship,and the more specifics you try to confine to the more confined your area gets.

I understand but it takes more skill to steer the ship in a confined area than in open waters.........which is what I'm after. I'm a "specifics" type guy

[EternalReturn]

JWood: yeah you are right. I used to have 1 high-carb refeed day every saturday, and I've quit them. I have around almost 1 year without any high-carb day and i haven't lost any strength, some days i can even do about 1 hour and 50 minutes of cardio of fast walking and about 50 minutes of stationary bike on a heavy level and even if i do lots of cardio I still can lift with the same strength. Eating about 20 grams of carbs a day in my standard keto diet

Eating carbs is a waste of time if you are trying to loose weight.

Stay low carb all the time, and just burn your fat away.

I have no issues boxing / kickboxing while running purely on ketones. Once adapted you can train all you want.