Why is my Squat so weak? - Form Check Vid

[VanillaBearB]

For some reason, I've never found a technique that sits well. I've tried High Bar with Flat and Heeled (Apparently High bar with Oly shoes would be best for someone with my femur proportions) and am now trying out low bar. I've found that low bar with oly shoes is actually most comfortable and I feel like it's less on my lower back than anything else. I was deadlifting around 175kg last year, and about a month ago was repping 150kg with a max of around 165kg (albeit a fairly high hip starting position).

Here's a vid of my working set today at 65kg x 6:



Anything anyone can suggest? I can't front squat atm because of an AC injury, and am working on thoracic and hip mobility daily. Only just been able to get into the position for low bar, although this set was a little higher on my back than I've done before.

What gives?

[vampborn]

Your spine's getting crushed basically under 1 plate. I think you should keep a tighter back, and it seems like your'e not doing a true low bar squat. It looks like you have butt wink and your upper back is rounding in the hole. I would play around with stance more, and practice more body weight squats throughout the day so that you can find a comfortable position. It would seem you lack flexibility and good posture - so maybe work on those and your squat technique will improve.

[MCheekCPA]

Youre just weak and have bad genes. I was similar when i started. Current squat is 250 after 10 yrs training. Id advise squatting 3 times per week in the 4 -8 rep range.

[kaleida]

Long femurs - read this and see if it sounds like you.
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=160995431

Also too much lower back arch when you begin descent in my opinion - I know this is a controversial topic because some people think arching as much as possible is a GOOD thing - watch this video for an alternative opinion on squatting with a straight and fully stabilized spine instead.
http://articles.elitefts.com/trainin...quat-is-wrong/

[tidnab]

In response to the last article kaleida posted, IMO "chest up" is not wrong... that's not the right way to look at it. Too much lower back arch is definitely a big issue to be concerned with, but thoracic extension (ie "chest up") is not the real cause. The real problem is you are not engaging your abs. Thus when you try to keep a "tight back" you inevitably wind up with an excessive arch. (EDIT: now that I've seen the video it looks like he's essentially saying the same things I am, just in a different way... it's actually a great video)

Just brace your abs like someone is going to punch you in the stomach. Tight back + tight abs = perfectly neutral spine throughout the squat, with maximum core support. The abs oppose the spinal erectors and vice versa.

[tidnab]

In your case specifically OP, you don't have a tight core, thus you are unable to transfer the force of your hips directly to the bar. I shouldn't be able to see any independent movement in your lower back at all during the squat... otherwise your back is failing to serve as a proper lever arm.

[kaleida]

Yeah, I opened a can of worms on the arched vs straight back topic
Just try both and see what you like best. My squat is stronger and more stable with a straight back. I have no preference what other people do though. In this case long femur difficulties are probably 90% of why squats are hard for you, based on body proportions and torso angle in the video...the exaggerated arch is just a minor thing I noticed while I was looking.

[IIISpartacusIII]

You need more upper back tightness. You need to pull the bar down, elbows forward a bit and drive your neck into the squat bar while keeping the chest up. Also, more hip drive and an earlier hip drive meaning that it seems that you're first moving your back up and then your hips out. Shoot the hips out while getting out of the bottom position; the hips moving forward will straighten your back as you ascend.

[VanillaBearB]

Your spine's getting crushed basically under 1 plate. I think you should keep a tighter back, and it seems like your'e not doing a true low bar squat. It looks like you have butt wink and your upper back is rounding in the hole. I would play around with stance more, and practice more body weight squats throughout the day so that you can find a comfortable position. It would seem you lack flexibility and good posture - so maybe work on those and your squat technique will improve.

I'll work on doing some bodyweight stuff to try and get a good position in the hole. Thanks man!

Long femurs - read this and see if it sounds like you.
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=160995431

Also too much lower back arch when you begin descent in my opinion - I know this is a controversial topic because some people think arching as much as possible is a GOOD thing - watch this video for an alternative opinion on squatting with a straight and fully stabilized spine instead.
http://articles.elitefts.com/trainin...quat-is-wrong/

Definitely long femurs. I'll have a look at the article and video later! Thanks Kaleida

In response to the last article kaleida posted, IMO "chest up" is not wrong... that's not the right way to look at it. Too much lower back arch is definitely a big issue to be concerned with, but thoracic extension (ie "chest up") is not the real cause. The real problem is you are not engaging your abs. Thus when you try to keep a "tight back" you inevitably wind up with an excessive arch. (EDIT: now that I've seen the video it looks like he's essentially saying the same things I am, just in a different way... it's actually a great video)

Just brace your abs like someone is going to punch you in the stomach. Tight back + tight abs = perfectly neutral spine throughout the squat, with maximum core support. The abs oppose the spinal erectors and vice versa.

In your case specifically OP, you don't have a tight core, thus you are unable to transfer the force of your hips directly to the bar. I shouldn't be able to see any independent movement in your lower back at all during the squat... otherwise your back is failing to serve as a proper lever arm.

I think that might be a big part of it. I really struggle to keep my abs tight during a squat, even a bodyweight squat. When I put a belt on I can do the Vulsalva manoeuvre fine, but without having something to push against I just flop. May be a little bit to do with some minor anterior pelvic tilt I've got going on?

You need more upper back tightness. You need to pull the bar down, elbows forward a bit and drive your neck into the squat bar while keeping the chest up. Also, more hip drive and an earlier hip drive meaning that it seems that you're first moving your back up and then your hips out. Shoot the hips out while getting out of the bottom position; the hips moving forward will straighten your back as you ascend.

Physically pull the bar downards with my elbows? I'll try getting my hips more forward first, but aren't my hips shooting up too quickly?

Thanks for all the advice guys, keep it coming! Reps for all <3

[justroberson]

Your form is okay enough. You need to strengthen your abs and upper back. And just get stronger in general.

Doing some kind of linear progression (like SS or SL), and eating some food would probably do wonders for your squat. We're the same height. If I weighed 172 I would be skeletal. Eat a sandwich or 10 and your squats will go up.

[VanillaBearB]

Your form is okay enough. You need to strengthen your abs and upper back. And just get stronger in general.

Doing some kind of linear progression (like SS or SL), and eating some food would probably do wonders for your squat. We're the same height. If I weighed 172 I would be skeletal. Eat a sandwich or 10 and your squats will go up.

I did bulk from 175 to 200lbs last year over about 7 months, but just got fat as hell and wasn't pushing myself hard enough. I am trying to put weight on, establishing a decent intake as we speak. I'm trying to do more core work as well.

[kaleida]

I think that might be a big part of it. I really struggle to keep my abs tight during a squat, even a bodyweight squat. When I put a belt on I can do the Vulsalva manoeuvre fine, but without having something to push against I just flop. May be a little bit to do with some minor anterior pelvic tilt I've got going on?



Physically pull the bar downards with my elbows? I'll try getting my hips more forward first, but aren't my hips shooting up too quickly?

I am the same way, finding it a lot easier to brace with a belt. I actually found a study somewhere that measured core activation with and without a belt and found an increase in core muscle activation when the valsava maneuver was used against a belt. So I'm no longer in the "beltless is better because beltless uses more core muscles" camp - although that's another controversial topic I know. If I find that study again I'll try to post a link to it...

I am always very suspicious of body-part-position cues like "hips back" - I think that hip and knee position and torso angle on the way up will vary a lot from person to person. Body proportions and previous training determine which position is strongest. Just pushing the floor down as hard as possible will make hips automatically go to their strongest position - which might be up, back, or forward depending on the person. Trying to cue my own hip or knee position as a goal in itself can actually take me out of my strongest position. Just my opinion on another controversial topic though. I do use hip position cues if my hips look unsymmetrical from a direct front or back view - because asymmetry comes with a much bigger risk of injury - but for people who don't have symmetry issues I think it's fine to just push the floor and let hips go to their strongest position.

[IIISpartacusIII]

Physically pull the bar downards with my elbows? I'll try getting my hips more forward first, but aren't my hips shooting up too quickly?

Yes, pull the bar downwards while pushing your neck into the bar. The hips start pushing forward the moment you begin to ascend out of that bottom position, if lead with your back you'll be performing a good morning before you engage the hips. Take a look at this video from Chris Duffin; he goes through proper hand position and upper back tightness in the squat set up.



Thanks for the rep, I'll rep you back. I'm currently researching, experimenting and evaluating the proper set up and execution for all my lifts since I realize that a good powerlifting program, food and sleep are not quite enough. Technical skill also helps a lot.

[rdferguson]

Looks to me like you don't have sufficient control in the bottom, and are overcompensating with an excessive arch at the top to try and make up for this lack of control. One of the best things I've found for building control in the bottom is to practice pause squats. Stretch and warm up with bodyweight squats, then put the bar on your back, squat down, adjust yourself until you're in a good position at the bottom, hold for 2 seconds, and then come back up. Repeat for sets of 10, aiming to reduce the amount of time spent adjusting your position so that you're going straight to the position you want to be in. Once you can go straight to a good bottom position on 90% of your working reps, add weight 2.5kg at a time.

On the core and belts, I find that trying to mimic wearing a belt when you aren't wearing one is an exercise in futility. Belts work on the basis of equal and opposite forces. You push out into the belt with 100N of force, and the belt pushes 100N of force right back into your abs. Without a belt, it's your transversus abdominis that pushes inwards to create intra-abdominal tension, rather than a belt, and to get that effect you actually have to push inwards with the transversus abdominis. In both methods, you still want to be filling the deepest parts of your lungs and pushing down with your diaphragm -- either so that the belt has something to push in against, or so that your TA has something to push in against. But since to get the effect without a belt you need to be pushing in with your TA rather than out against a belt, it's a different technique. On a related note, while I'd encourage you to get as good as possible without using a belt, I've also found that belts are great training tools from day 1, because having a belt around your waist gives proprioceptive feedback, which makes it easier to feel when you're staying in correct spinal alignment and when you're breaking form. Anything that helps you improve your technique is good, so if a belt helps you to do it right, don't shy away from using a belt.

[VanillaBearB]

I am the same way, finding it a lot easier to brace with a belt. I actually found a study somewhere that measured core activation with and without a belt and found an increase in core muscle activation when the valsava maneuver was used against a belt. So I'm no longer in the "beltless is better because beltless uses more core muscles" camp - although that's another controversial topic I know. If I find that study again I'll try to post a link to it...

I am always very suspicious of body-part-position cues like "hips back" - I think that hip and knee position and torso angle on the way up will vary a lot from person to person. Body proportions and previous training determine which position is strongest. Just pushing the floor down as hard as possible will make hips automatically go to their strongest position - which might be up, back, or forward depending on the person. Trying to cue my own hip or knee position as a goal in itself can actually take me out of my strongest position. Just my opinion on another controversial topic though. I do use hip position cues if my hips look unsymmetrical from a direct front or back view - because asymmetry comes with a much bigger risk of injury - but for people who don't have symmetry issues I think it's fine to just push the floor and let hips go to their strongest position.

I do agree with everything you said. Everyone is different, hence everyone has a different squat. Just sucks that I haven't found mine yet!

I'd train with a belt more often but think I should try some other methods before I belt at 135 haha.

[MCheekCPA]

OP gives reps to all these 20 year olds that give him advise. Don't listen to the 39 year old who has more experience than the rest combined. Its all because they say what OP wants to hear. I guarantee not one of their advices give him more than 10 lbs on his squat. Everyone thinks they should be born with a 350 squat. This just isn't the case. Hard and frequent training yields results... not flexing abs and straightening the lower back!

There are problems with OP's squat, however; the more you do a movement, the more the body strengthens and performs the movement more optimally. OP's weaknesses will be corrected through hours of reps performed and nothing more! Reps or no reps OP, this is the truth!

[kaleida]

OP gives reps to all these 20 year olds that give him advise. Don't listen to the 39 year old who has more experience than the rest combined. Its all because they say what OP wants to hear. I guarantee not one of their advices give him more than 10 lbs on his squat. Everyone thinks they should be born with a 350 squat. This just isn't the case. Hard and frequent training yields results... not flexing abs and straightening the lower back!

There are problems with OP's squat, however; the more you do a movement, the more the body strengthens and performs the movement more optimally. OP's weaknesses will be corrected through hours of reps performed and nothing more! Reps or no reps OP, this is the truth!

I am flattered that I look 20.
I feel like I just got carded! Lol.

The long femur article I linked to isn't designed to "add weight" to anyone's squat - it's meant to help people with this body type see multiple different stance options so they can pick one and train it. It's meant to help them see that long-femur squats are difficult but not impossible (because some people actually believe this body type can't squat below parallel at all - but they can). It's also meant to help people understand why a lot of very common squat advice sounds anatomically impossible to long femur / short torso people (like "sit back more - but don't let your knees go past your toes, and keep your torso more upright" - that combination makes it anatomically impossible for long femur / short torso people to get below parallel, unless they use an extreme wide stance). I link to it whenever I see this body type in a squat form check video - they are the most likely to need help with squats because their body type makes squatting difficult.

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you on the "time and effort thing" though, just adding other useful perspectives to the pile.

[Jasonk282]

OP gives reps to all these 20 year olds that give him advise. Don't listen to the 39 year old who has more experience than the rest combined. Its all because they say what OP wants to hear. I guarantee not one of their advices give him more than 10 lbs on his squat. Everyone thinks they should be born with a 350 squat. This just isn't the case. Hard and frequent training yields results... not flexing abs and straightening the lower back!

Or...It could be that your advise is fuking wrong...nah, that can;t be it.

Your squat is 250 lbs after 10 years of training. I surpassed that name in 3 months after being off for 5 years with 2 broken legs and knees.

Maybe you, should listen to the folks that you're bashing. Though you won;t because you'd rather blame genetics that your lack of effort in the gym.

[kaleida]

Or...It could be that your advise is fuking wrong...nah, that can;t be it.

Your squat is 250 lbs after 10 years of training. I surpassed that name in 3 months after being off for 5 years with 2 broken legs and knees.

Maybe you, should listen to the folks that you're bashing. Though you won;t because you'd rather blame genetics that your lack of effort in the gym.

I personally would not jump to that conclusion...some lifts are harder than others for different people because of body proportions or pre-existing injuries etc, some people have to work harder per pound of squat progress than others. I think as long as the number is improving with happy joints you're doing something right

[Jasonk282]

I personally would not jump to that conclusion...some lifts are harder than others for different people because of body proportions or pre-existing injuries etc, some people have to work harder per pound of squat progress than others. I think as long as the number is improving with happy joints you're doing something right

It's been my experience in the past 16 total years of lifting that any time people pull out genetics, 'cell tech" or other stuff that they're making excuses for something they themselves can not do.

Yes, some lifts are better for other that's what leverages are all about. So are better squatters than deadlifters, etc. But to be in the game for 10 years and not squatting 3 plates and even saying that everything you and others have been saving is wrong...c'mon.

[kaleida]

It's been my experience in the past 16 total years of lifting that any time people pull out genetics, 'cell tech" or other stuff that they're making excuses for something they themselves can not do.

Yes, some lifts are better for other that's what leverages are all about. So are better squatters than deadlifters, etc. But to be in the game for 10 years and not squatting 3 plates and even saying that everything you and others have been saving is wrong...c'mon.

It does sound odd to still be stuck at 250 after 10 years but there might be a good reason for it...who knows. I have been called "lazy" before in spite of consistent training and diet on a program that just didn't work for my body type. Switched to different type of programming and got much faster progress. I'd try something new if my progress was 250lb in 10 years but I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that he's lazy

[MCheekCPA]

Or...It could be that your advise is fuking wrong...nah, that can;t be it.

Your squat is 250 lbs after 10 years of training. I surpassed that name in 3 months after being off for 5 years with 2 broken legs and knees.

Maybe you, should listen to the folks that you're bashing. Though you won;t because you'd rather blame genetics that your lack of effort in the gym.

Dude, you have no idea. Im damn proud of my gains. For my first yr of squatting i could reach a squat max over 100. Its always been a weak lift for me. I have studied and trained for years trying to figure this out. I dl 550 and have studied and worked on my squat for yrs! I know i know more about squatting than pretty much anyone. Hell ive had over 200 people study my squat. For some people, it's just a weak lift and im damn proud of my 250 squat.

[Jasonk282]

Dude, you have no idea. Im damn proud of my gains. For my first yr of squatting i could reach a squat max over 100. Its always been a weak lift for me. I have studied and trained for years trying to figure this out. I dl 550 and have studied and worked on my squat for yrs! I know i know more about squatting than pretty much anyone. Hell ive had over 200 people study my squat. For some people, it's just a weak lift and im damn proud of my 250 squat.

Sorry, but if you're deadlifting 550, then you should be able to squat way more than 250...or your deadlift is not 550.

[IIISpartacusIII]

Sorry, but if you're deadlifting 550, then you should be able to squat way more than 250...or your deadlift is not 550.

Those numbers he gave don't jive. They sound made up.

[VanillaBearB]

OP gives reps to all these 20 year olds that give him advise. Don't listen to the 39 year old who has more experience than the rest combined. Its all because they say what OP wants to hear. I guarantee not one of their advices give him more than 10 lbs on his squat. Everyone thinks they should be born with a 350 squat. This just isn't the case. Hard and frequent training yields results... not flexing abs and straightening the lower back!

There are problems with OP's squat, however; the more you do a movement, the more the body strengthens and performs the movement more optimally. OP's weaknesses will be corrected through hours of reps performed and nothing more! Reps or no reps OP, this is the truth!

Actually, I didn't not rep you on purpose. I'm sorry that I accidentally missed you out; even if I don't entirely agree with what you said, you at least took the time out of your day to post a suggestion to help me when you have never met me before and have no obligation to do so.

Having said that, you are not currently acting like a 39 year old, throwing a little tantrum? There's something to be said for having humility.

[primalmedic413]

OP gives reps to all these 20 year olds that give him advise. Don't listen to the 39 year old who has more experience than the rest combined. Its all because they say what OP wants to hear. I guarantee not one of their advices give him more than 10 lbs on his squat. Everyone thinks they should be born with a 350 squat. This just isn't the case. Hard and frequent training yields results... not flexing abs and straightening the lower back!

There are problems with OP's squat, however; the more you do a movement, the more the body strengthens and performs the movement more optimally. OP's weaknesses will be corrected through hours of reps performed and nothing more! Reps or no reps OP, this is the truth!

You don't really backup your case that these other people don't know what they're talking about. I've seen them give good specific advice that is logical and well thought out, with links to other experienced lifters giving potentially helpful data. All you did was say that the OP has problems with his squat, so he should squat more. Not exactly deep advice there.....

[primalmedic413]

Dude, you have no idea. Im damn proud of my gains. For my first yr of squatting i could reach a squat max over 100. Its always been a weak lift for me. I have studied and trained for years trying to figure this out. I dl 550 and have studied and worked on my squat for yrs! I know i know more about squatting than pretty much anyone. Hell ive had over 200 people study my squat. For some people, it's just a weak lift and im damn proud of my 250 squat.

Ok, you're saying that your advice is the best, and to back that up, you cite.........Yourself. Do you not see how your credibility is in question?

[TrettinR]

I surpassed that name in 3 months after being off for 5 years with 2 broken legs and knees.

Ow. Good to see you're not one of those people who make excuses to not squat.

It's been my experience in the past 16 total years of lifting that any time people pull out genetics, 'cell tech" or other stuff that they're making excuses for something they themselves can not do.

Spot on.

I know more about squatting than pretty much anyone.

Neat. Claims to know more about squatting than anyone. Advice is to ignore technique and just squat because your body will just learn how to do it.

[Jasonk282]

Ow. Good to see you're not one of those people who make excuses to not squat. .

Haha, yeah. I probably had a legit reason not too as well. I was one of them bro that though that as long as I ran, well that's good enough for legs. My reasoning was further ingrained in the Marines where when you went to the gym on base or the FOB we're just working out mirror muscles and leg training was just doing ruck marches/runs what have you.

fast forward to when I had my legs smashed in an RPG attack and spending years rehabbing them. The Navy PT who got me back to literally walking again had me doing LOTS of squats and what not. I made it a point this time around to do thing right...not many get a 2nd chance.

[VmissileX]

Good advice from the younger crowd ITT.

Shows to tell, older people can be idiots sometimes too.