Whey on keto?

[ramid3]

Are whey shakes something to be restricted or outright a avoided when on keto?

I'm taking whey isolate shakes post-workout, and I've read that both the rapid absorption of large amounts of protein, and certain amino acids can cause an insulin spike. Accurate?

I know actual food is what keto demands, but sometimes it's not always possible for me, and I occasionally rely upon shakes in order to fill in protein gaps.

[Kai12]

Different sources on the net will give you different answers, and it can drive you nuts.

I have a bit of fat with my whey after a workout. People eat balanced meals after a workout and grow/look just fine. My priority if fat loss so maybe for pure muscle-building it might be different (CKD and all that).

[aaaaaaaaaachooo]

Most will say avoid whey b/c it's "insulinotropic".
I say **** that.

Whey has the highest amount of non-dispensable amino acids & branched chain amino acids.
BCAAs are the first thing to be sacrificed during muscle catabolism, & you'll lose less muscle by including them in your diet.
Meat & fish are not as high in BCAAs as whey....which is 25% bcaas.

Whey's solubility, & digestibility along with the amino acid profile make it an ideal source of protein.
Personally, I've used whey multiple times throughout the day while on keto & haven't been negatively affected by it.
""ALL of this is just advice....Do whatever the fuarkkkkkkkkk you wanna doooooooo!""

[weiss1967]

I take one shake post workout, whey isolate on cream 18%. A bit too high on carbs, there is like 10gr of carbs in a glass of cream, but I never been out of keto because of that. Of course, people say different, some say fats are no-no in post workout shakes.

[WonderPug]

Whey protein is highly insulinotropic and thus the consumption of such, especially sans concurrent intake of very large offsetting dietary fat, is illogical on a ketogenic diet as it's the metabolic equivalent of consuming large amounts of simple sugars while attempting a ketogenic diet.

If you're trying to mitigate insulin response to energy intake, then you would not consume whey protein powders, especially sans concurrent intake of at least 2x the grams in dietary fat.

[aaaaaaaaaachooo]

Whey protein is highly insulinotropic and thus the consumption of such, especially sans concurrent intake of very large offsetting dietary fat, is illogical on a ketogenic diet as it's the metabolic equivalent of consuming large amounts of simple sugars while attempting a ketogenic diet.

If you're trying to mitigate insulin response to energy intake, then you would not consume whey protein powders, especially sans concurrent intake of at least 2x the grams in dietary fat.

I would love to find multiple sources that state "whey is the metabolic equivalent of consuming large amounts of simple sugars".

I'm still looking into this topic & seeking various studies on all the pros/cons of whey during keto.
HIGHLY debated topic right here people!!

[WonderPug]

HIGHLY debated topic right here people!!

It shouldn't be.

Protein is insulinotropic, much like carbs, and whey is particularly insulinotropic, just like simple sugars.

Dietary fat is not insulinotropic.

Combining relatively large amounts of fat with moderate amounts of protein and small/trace amounts of CHO blunts insulin response, hence why nutritional ketosis is established and maintained with high fat, moderate protein and very low CHO intake.

[aaaaaaaaaachooo]

Combining relatively large amounts of fat with moderate amounts of protein and small/trace amounts of CHO blunts insulin response

Agreed. So why not utilize dietary fat with whey?
Aside from the reasons I listed above on why I'm "pro-whey"...
Whey has a high cysteine content, which has been proven to boost the immune system.

However...having said this...if you can find me a study or two showing that "whey is the metabolic equivalent of consuming large amounts of simple sugars" (when combined with dietary fat as well) I'll concede my position. lol

All the beneficial things I've mentioned in this post is why I'm such an advocate. lol

[ramid3]

Whey protein is highly insulinotropic and thus the consumption of such, especially sans concurrent intake of very large offsetting dietary fat, is illogical on a ketogenic diet...

Is that by virtue of its rapid absorption in the body, or some other compositional feature? If it's the former (or in any way related to it), would simply reducing the serving size be of any help? For instance, if steak were somehow absorbed and digested as rapidly as whey, would simply eating less of it during one particular sitting be sufficient to mitigate the insulin response created by ingesting large quantities of protein all one time?

Different sources on the net will give you different answers, and it can drive you nuts.

I have a bit of fat with my whey after a workout. People eat balanced meals after a workout and grow/look just fine. My priority if fat loss so maybe for pure muscle-building it might be different (CKD and all that).

That pretty much describes the experience of researching nuanced nutritional/fitness information online, in general. Conflicting sources, backed by varying levels of substance, and all intersecting with third party reference, anecdotal evidence and hearsay.

For example, I've heard it's ill-advised to blend fat with your whey shake, as it slows the absorption of whey. But I've also heard rapid absorption is irrelevant in regards to the mythical anabolic window, so it shouldn't make a difference either way. And if what I've suggested in my reply to WonderPug is true, maybe even desirable? While on keto? Oh wait...those amino acids...

Yeah...*this*, all the time.

[Kai12]

If Lyle McDonald is right, then it does not matter when you have the protein, and even less if you have it with fat. Like I said, some people have fairly balanced meals after a workout and grow just fine.

My experience with keto is being slightly obsessed with losing muscle that I gain while actually being on keto! I think with what we know now, is having fat with the whey after a workout wont kill any gains, muscle or stop the fat burning process in any concernable way, and even if the science comes out to say its wrong it probably wont be enough to have a dramatic effect. I have made gains in the last two months (on the scales and increased strength) while having coconut oil with my whey, so im sticking with it.

[weiss1967]

Whey protein is highly insulinotropic and thus the consumption of such, especially sans concurrent intake of very large offsetting dietary fat, is illogical on a ketogenic diet as it's the metabolic equivalent of consuming large amounts of simple sugars while attempting a ketogenic diet.

If you're trying to mitigate insulin response to energy intake, then you would not consume whey protein powders, especially sans concurrent intake of at least 2x the grams in dietary fat.

I don't understand this entirely. Insulin is good post workout, forget keto for a moment, why are we woking out after all and what insulin does in terms of growth. Why on earth would anybody want to mitigate insulin response to energy intake? Insulin is produced by just staring at sugars, it is largely parasympathetic response, just like with any other hormones. IMHO this whole thing about protein intake post workout in relation to keto is largely taken out of context, probably from studies on keto for diabetics.

[WonderPug]

However...having said this...if you can find me a study or two showing that "whey is the metabolic equivalent of consuming large amounts of simple sugars" (when combined with dietary fat as well) I'll concede my position. lol

All the beneficial things I've mentioned in this post is why I'm such an advocate. lol

Sorry for the delay in reply, but I don't venture into the keto forum regularly.

Anyway, whey protein is more insulinotropic than even white bread and it produces a dramatically higher GIP than pure glucose. By the way, that is common knowledge among those knowledgeable about the subject.

More specifically, "postprandial amino acids, glucose-dependent insulinotropic polypeptide (GIP) and glucagon-like peptide 1 (GLP-1) responses were higher after whey compared to white wheat bread. A stimulatory effect on insulin release from isolated islets was observed with serum after whey obtained at 15 min (+87%, P < 0.05) and 30 min (+139%, P < 0.05) postprandially, compared with control serum. The combination of isoleucine, leucine, valine, lysine and threonine exerted strong stimulatory effect on insulin secretion (+270%, P < 0.05), which was further augmented by GIP (+558% compared to that produced by glucose, P < 0.05). The stimulatory action of whey on insulin secretion was reduced by the GIP-receptor antagonist (Pro(3))GIP[mPEG]) at both 15 and 30 min (−56% and −59%, P < 0.05)." To learn more, please see here.

Unfortunately, much of the advice I see you posting is actually based on acute misunderstandings about nutrition and physiology. Simply put, you don't understand the biology, chemistry, physiology and nutritional science of diets in general let alone as applied to a ketogenic diet.

This leads you unintentionally to post lots of stuff that is just plain wrong.

[sambshep]

Sorry for the delay in reply, but I don't venture into the keto forum regularly.

Anyway, whey protein is more insulinotropic than even white bread and it produces a dramatically higher GIP than pure glucose. By the way, that is common knowledge among those knowledgeable about the subject.

More specifically, "postprandial amino acids, glucose-dependent insulinotropic polypeptide (GIP) and glucagon-like peptide 1 (GLP-1) responses were higher after whey compared to white wheat bread. A stimulatory effect on insulin release from isolated islets was observed with serum after whey obtained at 15 min (+87%, P < 0.05) and 30 min (+139%, P < 0.05) postprandially, compared with control serum. The combination of isoleucine, leucine, valine, lysine and threonine exerted strong stimulatory effect on insulin secretion (+270%, P < 0.05), which was further augmented by GIP (+558% compared to that produced by glucose, P < 0.05). The stimulatory action of whey on insulin secretion was reduced by the GIP-receptor antagonist (Pro(3))GIP[mPEG]) at both 15 and 30 min (−56% and −59%, P < 0.05)." To learn more, please see here.

Unfortunately, much of the advice I see you posting is actually based on acute misunderstandings about nutrition and physiology. Simply put, you don't understand the biology, chemistry, physiology and nutritional science of diets in general let alone as applied to a ketogenic diet.

This leads you unintentionally to post lots of stuff that is just plain wrong.

You are misquoting the study, WonderPug. In the study you referenced, they used White Wheat Bread, not to be mistaken with White Bread. White Wheat Bread is made using the entire wheat kernel and hasn't undergone the normal processing that White Bread has, and thus it is still considered a whole grain type of bread. Furthermore, the volunteers in the study (all six of them) while described as "healthy" more than likely don't lift weights under a ketogenic diet, so it's difficult to infer that the observations made in this study are applicable to those frequenting these forums. Perhaps Whey isn't an ideal protein source when operating under SKD or CKD protocols, but it's well within the bounds of TKD.

Interestingly, addition of essential amino acids to a diet in poorly regulated elderly patients with type 2 diabetes improved metabolic control and lowered fasting blood glucose and serum insulin levels, as well as lowered levels of glycated hemoglobin (HbA1c) [29,30]. Possibly, the improved metabolic control results from increased muscle mass and improved insulin sensitivity, in addition to the insulinotropic effect of the amino acid supplementation.

Possibly a bit off topic, but I did find the above quote very interesting.

[WonderPug]

^^^ There's so much wrong with your post that it's hard to know where to start other than to say this is why so many folks either fail on ketogenic diets or, more likely, never understand how to even execute the diet.

[weiss1967]

Wonder Pug... can you please explain in layman terms, why whey protein is not good while on keto, and especially why it is not good post work out. So far I haven't seen the answer. If your answer is insulinotropic effect of whey, then please elaborate why is it not good. So far to my understanding, we as bodybuilders were tought that insulin stimulates growth, especially so important in "anabolic window" of post workout first hour.

[sambshep]

^^^ There's so much wrong with your post that it's hard to know where to start other than to say this is why so many folks either fail on ketogenic diets or, more likely, never understand how to even execute the diet.

1) You misquoted the study, which thereby misleads those viewing this thread. You criticize others for being proponents of misinformation, and yet here you are doing it yourself.
2) The scope of the study does not account for weight training nor ketogenic dieting, so it is inappropriate to apply its observations as evidence for advise given to those under different circumstances; it would be akin to referencing a study that used sedentary individuals in determining protein recommendations and applying it to bodybuilding.
3) The only part of my post that even covered the original topic at hand was in stating that Whey protein could be utilized in a TKD diet. It's hardly something that's impossible to argue against should you have a different opinion on the matter, and proclaiming that "there's so much wrong with [my] post that it's hard to know where to start" only demonstrates your impulse to be condescending towards others.

I have no qualms about admitting I'm wrong and I know that there is always something new to learn. That being said, I would never insult another person's intelligence or withhold an explanation on what I perceive to be accurate information, and yet you have done both in a single post. Telling an individual that he or she is wrong without expounding on your side of the discussion does not educate anyone, it does not provide a different perspective nor introduce new insight, it does nothing to minimize the abundance of misinformation on these forums, and insulting them on top of that is least constructive of all.

Your attitude is disappointing (and this is coming from someone half your age).

[WonderPug]

Wonder Pug... can you please explain in layman terms, why whey protein is not good while on keto, and especially why it is not good post work out. So far I haven't seen the answer. If your answer is insulinotropic effect of whey, then please elaborate why is it not good. So far to my understanding, we as bodybuilders were tought that insulin stimulates growth, especially so important in "anabolic window" of post workout first hour.

The primary metabolic benefit for the subclass who respond favorably to ketogenic diets is reduced mean insulin response to energy intake.

Whey protein, especially in the absence of significant dietary fat and/or in high doses, negates this benefit by causing a significant rise in serum insulin.

By the way, in order for a ketogenic diet to be effective (achieve nutritional ketosis), protein intake from all sources usually has to be limited to <~0.8 grams per pound of bodyweight (LBM in the obese) and in some folks, intake must be kept below ~0.6g/lb in order in induce nutritional ketosis as all dietary protein is insulinogenic.

[weiss1967]

quit cutting and pasting, man. You didn't answer my question... Finger is hovering over "neg" button...

[WonderPug]

quit cutting and pasting, man. You didn't answer my question... Finger is hovering over "neg" button...

The irony, of course, is that you don't even understand that even the marketing of whey protein, as "fast" absorbing protein, is exactly the opposite the characteristics of protein appropriate for a ketogenic diet.

Insulin response is impacted by load (dose and rate of absorption) as well as amino acid profile in context of total meal composition. High dose and/or faster absorption results in high insulin response, other factors adjusted, and in the case of whey at usual dose, a large insulin response will be noted compared to many other protein sources, and the insulin response can be greater, calorie for calorie, than when an individual consumes premium ice cream.

[sambshep]

Wonder Pug... can you please explain in layman terms, why whey protein is not good while on keto, and especially why it is not good post work out. So far I haven't seen the answer. If your answer is insulinotropic effect of whey, then please elaborate why is it not good. So far to my understanding, we as bodybuilders were tought that insulin stimulates growth, especially so important in "anabolic window" of post workout first hour.

The primary metabolic benefit for the subclass who respond favorably to ketogenic diets is reduced mean insulin response to energy intake.

Whey protein, especially in the absence of significant dietary fat and/or in high doses, negates this benefit by causing a significant rise in serum insulin.

By the way, in order for a ketogenic diet to be effective (achieve nutritional ketosis), protein intake from all sources usually has to be limited to <~0.8 grams per pound of bodyweight (LBM in the obese) and in some folks, intake must be kept below ~0.6g/lb in order in induce nutritional ketosis as all dietary protein is insulinogenic.

In layman terms (I'm paraphrasing of course)...on average, the people who prefer ketogenic diets will have a lower insulin response to eating food. Whey protein causes an insulin response in the body, more so when by itself or in large quantity. Therefore, Whey protein is counterproductive to those wanting to follow a ketogenic diet (because it causes an insulin response) and protein in general should be kept at a minimum to minimize unnecessary insulin response.

He asks for a layman explanation and you go ahead and refer to the group of people on keto with a taxonomic rank *facepalm*

You didn't answer two of his questions: "Why is whey protein not good post work out?" and "Doesn't insulin promote muscle growth?"

[aaaaaaaaaachooo]

The irony, of course, is that you don't even understand that even the marketing of whey protein, as "fast" absorbing protein, is exactly the opposite the characteristics of protein appropriate for a ketogenic diet.

Insulin response is impacted by load (dose and rate of absorption) as well as amino acid profile in context of total meal composition. High dose and/or faster absorption results in high insulin response, other factors adjusted, and in the case of whey at usual dose, a large insulin response will be noted compared to many other protein sources, and the insulin response can be greater, calorie for calorie, than when an individual consumes premium ice cream.

I won't even bother responding to the insult you've posted above, as I feel I've helped many people here in a positive way.
Having said that...enlighten me on a couple things here:

I've read that Whey Isolate with added fats does not create a blood glucose over 5.6 (still in fasted state)
From my understanding...Insulin secretion is not a huge concern with whey, isolate or concentrate, especially when in ketosis.
And the "spike" will be blunted with added fat for both whey isolate and concentrate.

Whey protein ingestion can create an insulin spike, not a blood sugar spike, unless its filled with simple carbs.
Blunt that spike down with some fats...and I don't see the problem here! Especially with no carbs present....
So why is a spike of insulin terrible?

We need insulin to shuttle all sorts of nutrients into cells, like protein and glycogen into muscles. It’s there for a reason, so to demonize it is misguided.
If insulin increases to shuttle that protein into the insulin sensitive muscle cells, so be it. That’s why it’s there.

[weiss1967]

We need insulin to shuttle all sorts of nutrients into cells, like protein and glycogen into muscles. It’s there for a reason, so to demonize it is misguided.
If insulin increases to shuttle that protein into the insulin sensitive muscle cells, so be it. That’s why it’s there.

I am coming from the same school of thought. So much so that I even tried to boost insulin sensitivity with chromium picolinate. Simply because while on keto we do not have a benefit of insuline spike associated with consuming fast carbs post workout. Now... it turns out whey protein spikes insulin without sugars, or even better than sugars. Soo... this is even better, right?

To Wonder Pug. It is turning silly already. Are we avoiding or simply misanderstanding the question? Simply put - 1) not smart enough to understand the question 2) purposefully clutterig this thread (having fun). You lift weights at all?

[ramid3]

I am coming from the same school of thought. So much so that I even tried to boost insulin sensitivity with chromium picolinate. Simply because while on keto we do not have a benefit of insuline spike associated with consuming fast carbs post workout.

Is that referring to a SKD, or rather any modified variant of a ketogenic diet? I was of the impression that TKD, for example, emphasized pre and post workout carbs, which I gather is for the very purpose of transporting nutrients via deliberately creating an insulin spike?

[ramid3]

Not to needlessly bump this thread, but: if it's a matter of sizable quantities of protein being rapidly absorbed that's responsible for kicking you out of keto, would simply opting for a slower digesting protein be a proper substitute? Why not simply use, say, casein over whey if whey's rapid absorption is a problem? Yes, they generally have higher carbs, but many quality products have around 3g, which seems fairly manageable on a carb restricted diet. Does that sound/seem like a reasonable solution?

[ramid3]

Not to needlessly bump this thread, but: if it's a matter of sizable quantities of protein being rapidly absorbed that's responsible for kicking you out of keto, would simply opting for a slower digesting protein be a proper substitute? Why not simply use, say, casein over whey if whey's rapid absorption is a problem? Yes, they generally have higher carbs, but many quality products have around 3g, which seems fairly manageable on a carb restricted diet. Does that sound/seem like a reasonable solution?

Bumping my last post for any thoughts...

[sambshep]

Bumping my last post for any thoughts...

It's not exactly the carbohydrate content that's up for discussion, it's the type of protein. Protein itself is insulinogenic, even more so if it's fast digesting like whey. I think that Whey is perfectly fine if consumed with post-workout carbohydrates under TKD protocol or at the start of one's refeed under CKD protocol, otherwise dietary fat should be consumed in conjunction with Whey to blunt its insulinogenic properties.

[RedeemerZG]

whey (isolate) kicks me out of ketosis (according to ketostix)

just my 0.02$

[ramid3]

It's not exactly the carbohydrate content that's up for discussion, it's the type of protein. Protein itself is insulinogenic, even more so if it's fast digesting like whey. I think that Whey is perfectly fine if consumed with post-workout carbohydrates under TKD protocol or at the start of one's refeed under CKD protocol, otherwise dietary fat should be consumed in conjunction with Whey to blunt its insulinogenic properties.

So would that be something as simple as spooning some coconut oil into my whey shake? Part of the reason I ask is because I still use protein shakes on occasion, and if whey's rapid absorption is a problem, then why not use a slower digesting protein? Like that neglected tub of ON casein I have sitting around?

[sambshep]

So would that be something as simple as spooning some coconut oil into my whey shake? Part of the reason I ask is because I still use protein shakes on occasion, and if whey's rapid absorption is a problem, then why not use a slower digesting protein? Like that neglected tub of ON casein I have sitting around?

Whey's fast digestion is only a problem if you're consuming it by itself and not after your workout, in which case it should be consumed with some kind of dietary fat. For post-workout (whether it be for the beginning of a refeed or TKD protocol) Whey's fast digestion is ideal under those circumstances. I've now answered your question twice.