Anyone know of a good supplement for pump

[jcschwartz]

Everyone likes a good pump when they lift. Anyone know of any secrets to get a really good pump when you lift. I know creatine is pretty good, anything else.

[rurkster]

I think its a waste to buy something that gives you a good pump.

If you work out correctly with strict form, you should have an amazing pump.

[robertthoburn]

There aren't any.

Nothing is as powerful for exercise for creating a 'pump'. Diet (in particular, carbohydrate) can certainly affect your ability to experience a pump, but there are no dietary supplements that can enhance it further.

The 'pump' refers to the progressive swelling of your muscles with blood when you make them sustain a high work rate. In other words, when you lift lots of weight without resting too long between sets.

Even mild exercise can increase blood flow to your muscles several-fold. No dietary supplement can even come close to doing that. Indeed, you will not experience and noticeable improvements in your pumps with any of the purported nitric oxide 'enhancing' dietary supplements (largely arginine-based) on the market today.

It's no accident that the workouts that produce the best pumps also tend to produce the most rapid increases in muscle size.

Check out my postings about the "ROB approach" to training for muscle growth:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...ferrerid=19763

This kind of training produces the best pumps imaginable. And it's free.

Best,
Rob

Rob Thoburn

Author of "No Mistakes Nutritional Guide" (www.prolab.com; available at GNC).
Planet Muscle science writer
articles also available at www.1_fast_400_.com (entered without the "_"s) and www.wannbebig.com

[thatkoolestdude]

Are you sure about that?

[robertthoburn]

Absolutely certain.

[lancelot]

try V12 cuz pumps are nice!

[Jergo]

Originally posted by robertthoburn
There aren't any.

Nothing is as powerful for exercise for creating a 'pump'. Diet (in particular, carbohydrate) can certainly affect your ability to experience a pump, but there are no dietary supplements that can enhance it further.

The 'pump' refers to the progressive swelling of your muscles with blood when you make them sustain a high work rate. In other words, when you lift lots of weight without resting too long between sets.

Even mild exercise can increase blood flow to your muscles several-fold. No dietary supplement can even come close to doing that. Indeed, you will not experience and noticeable improvements in your pumps with any of the purported nitric oxide 'enhancing' dietary supplements (largely arginine-based) on the market today.

It's no accident that the workouts that produce the best pumps also tend to produce the most rapid increases in muscle size.

Check out my postings about the "ROB approach" to training for muscle growth:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...ferrerid=19763

This kind of training produces the best pumps imaginable. And it's free.

Best,
Rob

Rob Thoburn

Author of "No Mistakes Nutritional Guide" (www.prolab.com; available at GNC).
Planet Muscle science writer
articles also available at www.1_fast_400_.com (entered without the "_"s) and www.wannbebig.com

Rob, so whats ur take on V12? i have been debating on whether to try some or not. lately, all ive heard was that they are a scam and dont even do what their intentions were. i was basically gonna use it for part of my post-cycle therapy.

btw bro. u should just stick all that stuff u got at the bottom of each post in ur sig. it must take u 5 minutes to just type that.

[Sonny]

Personally, I noctice greater pumps when I'm taking ALA! I haven't tried V12 or NO2!

[Par Deus]

Osmolytes, such as in v12 and the like, will increase pump/cell-volume.

Though, it is not its primary purpose, LeptiGen does this very, very well (I am a huge fan of cell-volume, in regard to nutrient signalling, thus it has a number of osmolytes)

[robertthoburn]

Originally posted by Jergo
Rob, so whats ur take on V12? i have been debating on whether to try some or not. lately, all ive heard was that they are a scam and dont even do what their intentions were. i was basically gonna use it for part of my post-cycle therapy.

btw bro. u should just stick all that stuff u got at the bottom of each post in ur sig. it must take u 5 minutes to just type that.

I don't believe that V12 has any advantage over diet in terms of its ability to enhance your pumps. That's not saying all that much.

Just because something is an 'osmolyte' and involved in cell volume regulation (e.g., betaine, taurine, etc.) this doesn't mean that taking more of it will increase the volume of your cells.

Creatine is one of the best 'cell-volumizing' supplements known, and yet, it fails to show any positive effects on myofibrillar protein synthesis --the Holy Grail of the bodybuilder. What does this tell you?

Rob

[Par Deus]

Looking at the first two abstracts that I encountered, I would note that they only measured it acutely -- cell-volume mediated protein synthesis and anti-catabolism would be a long-term thing, mostly.

And, of course, statistically significant requires less than a 1 in 20 chance that effects were caused by something other than the variable being tested -- 1 in 19 is worthless (though, it would mean the difference between winning the gold at the Olympics and not even making it there in something like the 100M)

And, of course, it is just one pathway and one substance, which is not how the body likes to do business.

[Max32]

I know most people hate NO2 like products, but I have had great results stacking NOS Precursor (fefifo. c o m) and BSN Nitrix. I take the recomended dosage of NOS and just add 1-2 nitrix with both doses. R-ALA works good as well. Again, this is my opinion of my real world results, so i am not asserting that others will feel as I do. I'm just trying to let this guy know what worked for me. And if you want any further detail, just pm me. Hope that helps.

[Jergo]

well, im going against the grain here and i decided to order some earlier.

since its not that expensive, ill give it a try.

maybe ill post back if results are noticed. (hopefully)

[robertthoburn]

Ancedotally, growth hormone (GH) seems to affect both intracellular and extracellular 'volumization', and yet it is a ****ty muscle builder.

Rob

[Par Deus]

It is a great anti-catabolic, from what I hear.

Maintaining normal high-physiological protein synthesis via cell-volumization is much more likely, IMO -- as opposed to supra-physiological growth that would be seen with something like androgens, because you are just replicating the fed state.

Someone eating 5000 calories a day are going to have all the cell-voulme they can handle.

Someone on a diet will not.

[Tkarrde]

Originally posted by Par Deus
Someone eating 5000 calories a day are going to have all the cell-voulme they can handle.

Someone on a diet will not.

Enter LeptiGen

[robertthoburn]

Originally posted by Par Deus
It is a great anti-catabolic, from what I hear.

Someone eating 5000 calories a day are going to have all the cell-voulme they can handle.

Yeah, including their adipocytes.

See....now this is more fun than having my house egged.

[Dedicated1]

U want a pump? Do high reps. That will force blood in the area being worked.

[Par Deus]

But, it will also favor non-contractile tissue compared to higher tensions, as well as being more likely to promote fast to slow conversion of muscle fibers.

[robertthoburn]

High reps (and therefore, lighter loads) are inferior for achieving a pump when compared to lifting heavier loads but with shortened (very brief) rest intervals.

Try lifting as much as you can for 8 reps, and resting only 30 seconds between sets. Do 10-15 sets per muscle group.

The pump will blow your mind. Then watch how your muscles grow.

People will wonder how you got so big while lifting so 'little'.

Best,
Rob

[Jergo]

Originally posted by robertthoburn
High reps (and therefore, lighter loads) are inferior for achieving a pump when compared to lifting heavier loads but with shortened (very brief) rest intervals.

Try lifting as much as you can for 8 reps, and resting only 30 seconds between sets. Do 10-15 sets per muscle group.

The pump will blow your mind. Then watch how your muscles grow.

People will wonder how you got so big while lifting so 'little'.

Best,
Rob

bro, im sorry, but that is a formula for overtraining.

maybe someone w/ superior genetics, but most people dont have them. saying that switching over to high reps from low wont necessarily make fast twitch take on characteristics of slow twitch either. and definately not on a short term basis for one to notice.

and the same vice-versa, IMO.

just because u get a really good pump going doesn't mean that ur stimulating along the lines of hypertrophy. u have to be progressively adding either more reps or more weight each corresponding training session. on the contrary, one that does volume work will not always add poundages, but will continue to grow consistently, as long as their bodies can handle the load, and like i said most people do not have the genetics for it.

but, if it works for u, then sweet--use it. as far as i am concerned, I and a lot of others wouldn't even think about it.

[Par Deus]

Originally posted by Jergo
saying that switching over to high reps from low wont necessarily make fast twitch take on characteristics of slow twitch either. and definately not on a short term basis for one to notice.

Well, his post did not indicate he just wanted to do it once every two weeks or something.

Here are some studies on fast to slow and resistance training:


J Appl Physiol. 2001 Jan;90(1):345-57. Related Articles, Links


Effects of different activity and inactivity paradigms on myosin heavy chain gene expression in striated muscle.

Baldwin KM, Haddad F.

Department of Physiology and Biophysics, University of California, Irvine, California 92697, USA. kmbaldwi@uci.edu

The goal of this mini-review is to summarize findings concerning the role that different models of muscular activity and inactivity play in altering gene expression of the myosin heavy chain (MHC) family of motor proteins in mammalian cardiac and skeletal muscle. This was done in the context of examining parallel findings concerning the role that thyroid hormone (T(3), 3,5,3'-triiodothyronine) plays in MHC expression. Findings show that both cardiac and skeletal muscles of experimental animals are initially undifferentiated at birth and then undergo a marked level of growth and differentiation in attaining the adult MHC phenotype in a T(3)/activity level-dependent fashion. Cardiac MHC expression in small mammals is highly sensitive to thyroid deficiency, diabetes, energy deprivation, and hypertension; each of these interventions induces upregulation of the beta-MHC isoform, which functions to economize circulatory function in the face of altered energy demand. In skeletal muscle, hyperthyroidism, as well as interventions that unload or reduce the weight-bearing activity of the muscle, causes slow to fast MHC conversions. Fast to slow conversions, however, are seen under hypothyroidism or when the muscles either become chronically overloaded or subjected to intermittent loading as occurs during resistance training and endurance exercise. The regulation of MHC gene expression by T(3) or mechanical stimuli appears to be strongly regulated by transcriptional events, based on recent findings on transgenic models and animals transfected with promoter-reporter constructs. However, the mechanisms by which T(3) and mechanical stimuli exert their control on transcriptional processes appear to be different. Additional findings show that individual skeletal muscle fibers have the genetic machinery to express simultaneously all of the adult MHCs, e.g., slow type I and fast IIa, IIx, and IIb, in unique combinations under certain experimental conditions. This degree of heterogeneity among the individual fibers would ensure a large functional diversity in performing complex movement patterns. Future studies must now focus on 1) the signaling pathways and the underlying mechanisms governing the transcriptional/translational machinery that control this marked degree of plasticity and 2) the morphological organization and functional implications of the muscle fiber's capacity to express such a diversity of motor proteins.

Publication Types:
Review
Review, Tutorial

PMID: 11133928 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Eur J Appl Physiol. 2002 Nov;88(1-2):50-60. Epub 2002 Aug 15. Related Articles, Links


Muscular adaptations in response to three different resistance-training regimens: specificity of repetition maximum training zones.

Campos GE, Luecke TJ, Wendeln HK, Toma K, Hagerman FC, Murray TF, Ragg KE, Ratamess NA, Kraemer WJ, Staron RS.

Department of Biomedical Sciences, College of Osteopathic Medicine, Ohio University, Irvine Hall, rm 430, Athens, OH 45701, USA.

"However, the percentage of type IIB fibers decreased, with a concomitant increase in IIAB fibers for all three resistance-trained groups. These fiber-type conversions were supported by a significant decrease in MHCIIb accompanied by a significant increase in MHCIIa. No significant changes in fiber-type composition were found in the control samples. Although all three training regimens resulted in similar fiber-type transformations (IIB to IIA), the low to intermediate repetition resistance-training programs induced a greater hypertrophic effect compared to the high repetition regimen. The High Rep group, however, appeared better adapted for submaximal, prolonged contractions, with significant increases after training in aerobic power and time to exhaustion. Thus, low and intermediate RM training appears to induce similar muscular adaptations, at least after short-term training in previously untrained subjects. Overall, however, these data demonstrate that both physical performance and the associated physiological adaptations are linked to the intensity and number of repetitions performed, and thus lend support to the "strength-endurance continuum".

PMID: 12436270 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


Eur J Appl Physiol Occup Physiol. 1998 Aug;78(3):270-5. Related Articles, Links


Resistance training frequency: strength and myosin heavy chain responses to two and three bouts per week.

Carroll TJ, Abernethy PJ, Logan PA, Barber M, McEniery MT.

Department of Human Movement Studies, The University of Queensland, Brisbane, Australia.

Seventeen subjects performed resistance training of the leg extensor and flexor muscle groups two (2/wk) or three (3/wk) times per week. Changes in the relative myosin heavy chain (MHC) isoform contents (I, IIa and IIx) of the vastus lateralis and isometric, isokinetic and squat-lift one-repetition maximum (1 RM) strength were compared between conditions after both a common training period (6 weeks) and number of training sessions (18). After 6 weeks and 18 sessions (9 weeks for the 2/wk group), increments in 1RM strength for the 3/wk and 2/wk groups were similar [effect size (ES) differences approximately 0.3, 3/wk > 2/wk], whereas the 2/wk group presented greater isokinetic (ES differences = 0.3-1.2) and isometric (ES differences approximately 0.7) strength increases than the 3/wk condition. A significant (P < 0.05) increase in MHC IIa percentage was evident for the 2/wk group after 18 sessions. Both training groups exhibited a trend towards a reduction in the relative MHC IIx and an increase in MHC IIa contents (ES range = 0.5-1.24). However, correlations between changes in the strength and MHC profiles were weak (r2: 0.0-0.5). Thus, isometric and isokinetic strength responses to variations in training frequency differed from 1RM strength responses, and changes in strength were not strongly related to alterations in relative MHC content.

Publication Types:
Clinical Trial

PMID: 9721008 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


One can also infer fast to slow from detraining-type studies:

Muscle Nerve. 2000 Jul;23(7):1095-104. Related Articles, Links


Myosin heavy chain IIX overshoot in human skeletal muscle.

Andersen JL, Aagaard P.

Copenhagen Muscle Research Centre, Department of Molecular Muscle Biology, Rigshospitalet Section 9312, Juliane Mariesvej 20, First Floor, DK-2100 Copenhagen, Denmark. jla@rh.dk

The distribution of myosin heavy chain (MHC) isoforms, fiber type composition, and fiber size of the vastus lateralis muscle were analyzed by sodium dodecylsulfate polymerase gel electrophoresis (SDS-PAGE), ATPase histochemistry, and immunocytochemistry in a group of adult sedentary men before and after 3 months of heavy-load resistance training and, subsequently, after 3 months of detraining. Following the period of resistance training, MHC IIX content decreased from 9.3 +/- 2.1% to 2.0 +/- 0.8% (P < 0.01), with a corresponding increase in MHC IIA (42.4 +/- 3.9% vs. 49.6 +/- 4.0% [P < 0.05]). Following detraining the amount of MHC IIX reached values that were higher than before and after resistance training (17.2 +/- 3.2% [P < 0.01]). Changes in fiber type composition resembled the changes observed in MHC isoform content. Significant hypertrophy was observed for the type II fibers after resistance training. Maximal isometric quadriceps strength increased after resistance training, but returned to pretraining levels after detraining. The present results suggest that heavy-load resistance training decreases the amount of MHC IIX while reciprocally increasing MHC IIA content. Furthermore, detraining following heavy-load resistance training seems to evoke an overshoot in the amount of MHC IIX to values markedly higher than those observed prior to resistance training. Copyright 2000 John Wiley & Sons, Inc.

Publication Types:
Clinical Trial

PMID: 10883005 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


Some more:

Hortobagyi T, Dempsey L, Fraser D, Zheng D, Hamilton G, Lambert J, Dohm L Changes in muscle strength, muscle fibre size and myofibrillar gene expression after immobilization and retraining in humans. J Physiol 2000 Apr 1;524 Pt 1:293-304

Staron RS, Karapondo DL, Kraemer WJ, Fry AC, Gordon SE, Falkel JE, Hagerman FC, Hikida RS Skeletal muscle adaptations during early phase of heavy-resistance training in men and women. J Appl Physiol 1994 Mar;76(3):1247-55

Fry AC, Allemeier CA, Staron RS Correlation between percentage fiber type area and myosin heavy chain content in human skeletal muscle. Eur J Appl Physiol Occup Physiol 1994;68(3):246-51

Jurimae J, Abernethy PJ, Blake K, McEniery MT Changes in the myosin heavy chain isoform profile of the triceps brachii muscle following 12 weeks of resistance training. Eur J Appl Physiol Occup Physiol 1996;74(3):287-92

[Dedicated1]

I agree with Par and Rob. He only mentioned he wanted a pump, which is temporary. To build bigger muscles, increase the weight and the reps will come down. I used to (when I first stated) do 3 sets of 10 reps for everything. U will only get so big using that idea (at least I did) unless U use AAS. Now for the last 10 years I have been doing 3 sets of 6 reps for everything (expect calves and abs), and it has worked out great for me (once every 1 1/2 months, I will do high reps, about 20 per set to work the other set of muscle fibers; fast twitch vs slow). Granted I dont get as big pumps, but that is not indicactive of putting the muscle tissue under a harder work load, as I once thought. Pumps really mean nothing to me.

[Jergo]

thx for those studies Par. I agree however w/ the poster saying that he never stated short-term. but i didn't acknowledge that at first because its alien to me why u would wanna perform higher reps in order to achieve a "pump". i dont get it. its not like it stays that way or anything. during training yes, but that doesn't mean that you would benefit from more hypertrophy.


unless he's a cyclist or something along those lines, then it would be beneficial.

I agree that u can convert or whatever, type II to type I. but not until uve done it for awhile. again i dont understand why u would wanna do that.

but what Rob said is a good way of somewhat benefiting from both. but i for one could not get away w/ it due to genetics. at least for the time being.

btw, those studies never stated approximately how long the conversion took. also, im sure that the detraining had a lot to do w/ it as well for the benefit of the purpose of that study. its kinda like starting from scratch. i think it would be different if one would just go straight into a different training aproach, as in this case that he posted.

also, what were the procedures that were the determinating factors of figuring out what the subjects starting fiber type was?
ie, the below........

"The distribution of myosin heavy chain (MHC) isoforms, fiber type composition, and fiber size of the vastus lateralis muscle were analyzed by sodium dodecylsulfate polymerase gel electrophoresis (SDS-PAGE), ATPase histochemistry, and immunocytochemistry in a group of adult sedentary men before and after 3 months of heavy-load resistance training and, subsequently, after 3 months of detraining."

--thats greek to me, any clue Par?

[Dedicated1]

Maybe he wants to look bigger for 15 mins. Hence, he is going for a pump.

[Max32]

everyone reponds differently to rep schemes, workouts, weights, etc.... I persoanlly grow best from 8-12 reps, high # of sets with supersetting. Of course, every once in a while, i'll throw in some low rep training sililar to a powerlifting regimen. I dont think it is bad to go for the pump. Hell, just take a look back at Arnold in Pumping Iron when he compared the pump to "cumming with woman" (what a great flick!). Many would consider my training as overtraining, but that is how I grow. It simply all falls back on the individual and being able to listen to your body for signals.

[pu12en12g]

Great thread guys !

Yes there are products out there that will give you a better pump
... so if workout intensity is an issue, these products can definately help in tha area.

I also agree with the statement that someone getting 5000 calories will have a better pump.

I took Extreme NOS Precursor and noticed extended pumps without switching my routine. What I mean is that the morning AFTER my workouts I felt as if I had just worked out. My muscles felt TIGHT and PUMPED. This is a GREAT feeling. I also noticed increased vascularity, and a overall sense of well-being which could be attributed to the extended pumped feeling.

When I started upping the calories, the pumps got better and better.

[PlowPuller]

Originally posted by Max32
Hell, just take a look back at Arnold in Pumping Iron when he compared the pump to "cumming with woman" (what a great flick!).

Assuming Arnold decides to run for governor of CA, makes you wonder if someone is going to try to use that against him in the election out there. LOL

If he does go into politics and he has a sex scandal, he can always say that he decided to go to the gym instead because that Pump would not break up his marriage.

[Par Deus]

The studies say how long the conversion too, though, the abstracts and references may not.

I don't have time to go digging, but I seem to recall conversion in as little as like 6-8 weeks.

Wrote an article on it back in the day:

http://www.avantlabs.com/magmain.php...ID=2&pageID=45

[robertthoburn]

Originally posted by pu12en12g
I also agree with the statement that someone getting 5000 calories will have a better pump.

Show me someone eating 5000 Calories a day, and I'll show you a fat someone.

I used to train 4-5 hours a day, every single day. I have never eaten 5000 Calories. If I did, I would have gotten fat.

Only when they train for several hours a day, many days per week, do most triathletes even come close to 5000 calories per day.

I used to train 6 hours a day years ago when I was training for endurance. I ran 8 miles to the gym, worked out, then ran back home. Then I ate. Then I went for a 20 km bike ride (don't ask me why I'm shifting between metric and Imperial system units). I never ate anything close to 5000 Calories.

It's funny, I don't think most supplements do anything. Nor are any necessary to achieve "optimal" gains in lean muscle tissue. But of all the supplements I have tried, I actually thought I noticed a "pump enhancing" effect with 20-hydroxyecdysone (20-HE). It was subtle, and it didn't happen every time I tried it, but I could have sworn it happened the first time. I had to take about a gram of the stuff before I noticed the effect.

Purely anecdotal, but maybe you'll get something out of it...

Rob