A workout by a local gym trainer

[Moosaka]

So i've been hitting the gym quite some time now, and so far i did different kinds of programs including SS and Kris Gethins' 12 week program. Few days ago, owner of the gym that i go to noticed me working out and came up to talk to me. I told him what i was doing, and what my plans are, so he offered to help me accomplish that by making me a workout. Here it is:

day 1, chest/triceps

4 sets of dips, 10-12 (warm up for chest, as he has put it)
5 sets of incline bench press, first four sets 10-12, last 2 6-8 (i am to increase weight each set)
4 sets of flat bench flyes, 8-12

4 sets of standing triceps cable extensions, 8-12
4 sets of cable one arm tricep extension, 8-12
4 sets of bench dips, 15-20

-----------------------------

day 2, back/biceps

5 sets of chins (should be 50 in total)
4 sets of bent over rows, 6-8 (i am suppose to hit it big here), underhand grip
3 sets of deadlifts, 6-8 (big weights)

4 sets of preacher curls, 6-8
4 sets of seated incline curls, 8-10
4 sets of standing dumbell curls, 10-12

-----------------------------

day 3, shoulders, legs

5 sets of military press, (upping the weight each set and decreasing reps from 12 to 6)
4 sets of standing lateral raises, 10-12
4 sets of heavy upright rows, 6-8

5 sets of squats, 6-8
3 sets of lunges, 8-10
3 sets of quad extensions, 8-10
4 sets of hamstring curls, 8-12

So that sums it up. I just copied everything from the paper he gave me. I hope to see your guys opinions on this.

P.s I'm 18 years old, I weigh 75kgs, 1.78m tall, i deadlift 95kg, incline press 80kgs, military press 70ish.

[CZMMA]

Classic 3 day split.Too much volume for my taste.How many times do you wanna train per week?

[Moosaka]

Classic 3 day split.Too much volume for my taste.How many times do you wanna train per week?

I usually hit the gym 5 times a week.

[CZMMA]

I usually hit the gym 5 times a week.

5 times is too much for a natty.No way that u can recover from dat volume if ur going hard.

[AceKinQueen]

A simple program like SS would actually do a lot for your lifts if you followed it properly (to the book properly). I would personally follow that till you get your lifts up.

But if you don't want to, this seems like a fairly standard hypertrophy program.

What are your actual goals OP?

[N1ALL]

A simple program like SS would actually do a lot for your lifts if you followed it properly (to the book properly). I would personally follow that till you get your lifts up.

But if you don't want to, this seems like a fairly standard hypertrophy program.

What are your actual goals OP?

This, i know ss gets thrown around like a cure to everything it seems but it is one of the best programs you can do for getting your lifts up on all the ones that actually matter. Your deadlift could improve a lot more than that.

[Moosaka]

What are your actual goals OP?

My goals are somewhat simple. Want to pack on some more muscle before the summer, then during May and half of June i want to cut down my fat. That's basically it.

[AceKinQueen]

My goals are somewhat simple. Want to pack on some more muscle before the summer, then during May and half of June i want to cut down my fat. That's basically it.

I have to say I never really have understood the summer muscle thing, but the program you have now is ok - if you want to be lean - and can actually handle the diet side of things.

But If you really want to get more muscle, its going to be a long term thing. SS is a long'ish term program ~ 8-12 weeks (if you actually read and follow the book). This is the better option because you will be getting stronger, heavier and more muscular but also a bit fatter...so it depends if you can handle the diet side of things as to whether you follow it or not.
[edit. If you are fat you will get leaner. If you are skinnier you will get both]

I think SS for the next 2 months with a cut at the end is the best option.

But then again, if you want to keep your bodyfat in check the whole time, your trainers program isn't brilliant but ok...the main problem I have with it is that you don't seem to have a way to scale the weights/reps and actually get better. It is a bit of a 'maintenance' program.

[NZninja101]

I have to say I never really have understood the summer muscle thing, but the program you have now is ok - if you want to be lean - and can actually handle the diet side of things.

That's a function of diet rather than training. It doesn't matter what program you're doing if you're not consuming a calorie deficit, you won't lose weight.

But If you really want to get more muscle, its going to be a long term thing. SS is a long'ish term program

Not really, unless you consider 8-12 weeks a long time to spend on a program. The progression scheme is fast and you can't keep that up forever. Just 10 weeks in and you'll have increased your squat by 150 pounds. Of course there will be deloads but you get that on just about any program.

~ 8-12 weeks (if you actually read and follow the book). This is the better option because you will be getting stronger, heavier and more muscular but also a bit fatter...so it depends if you can handle the diet side of things as to whether you follow it or not.

That depends on diet. SS won't make you fat. Your diet will. SS is a program, not a diet. Ripp tries to combine the two because it helps with the mentality of diet being important to the program and its success, but they are two separate but related entities, (IMO).

I'm not saying you don't gain some fat as you bulk but that is not restrictive to SS as you're possibly implying.

[edit. If you are fat you will get leaner. If you are skinnier you will get both]

No. Once again this depends on diet and if you're consuming at a calorie deficit or surplus. Ripp wants skinny guys to do GOMAD whilst on SS so as well as it being a ridiculous assumption that they would lose fat.

I think SS for the next 2 months with a cut at the end is the best option.

But then again, if you want to keep your bodyfat in check the whole time, your trainers program isn't brilliant but ok...the main problem I have with it is that you don't seem to have a way to scale the weights/reps and actually get better. It is a bit of a 'maintenance' program.

He'll probably burn an extra 90 calories doing that over SS. Its not a big deal, and its much easier to eat less. OP doesn't have to do his trainer's program to avoid getting fat.

Also you would assume there would be an attempt to add weight and reps each week but it has not been covered. Some trainers can be pretty dumb but to disregard progression altogether seems a step too far to assume.


Regarding the whole diet and training thing possibly or possibly not being a part of the program, even if it is there's no reason why OP should consume a gallon of milk a day on top of what he would be eating normally if he's a skinny guy. There's no point gaining unnecessary fat on a 2200 calorie surplus and spending a significant and unnecessary amount of time cutting fat later on.

[Moosaka]

So all in all, I think i will not do my trainers program, instead i will do Rippetoes SS. I need to do some reading about it.

[GinjaNinja85]

So all in all, I think i will not do my trainers program, instead i will do Rippetoes SS. I need to do some reading about it.

It sounds like you didn't do it right the first time round or your lifts woul be MUCH higher. So, yes, read dude.

[Moosaka]

What do you think about All Pro?

[ThickAsABrick]

Looks like a standard push/pull/legs split, which is just fine for hypertrophy.

If you are very new to training, you may consider lessening the overall volume. Perhaps remove one biceps and one triceps exercise, and trim other sets to a 4-3-3 setup vs. 5-4-3. You can always add more volume back in as your work capacity increases, provided you are still progressing and still recovering.

I would do this program over a strength training program given your stated goal. It's a more direct approach.

[musikguy72]

What do you think about All Pro?

Another good program. SPlits the gains between strength and size.
You could be shopping for the perfect program for months though. Pick one that you like and want to run and run it. Your gains will be determined by your diet (calorie deficit, surplus, or maintenance). If you don't like your results after a couple of months, change your diet or your routine.

Results speak much louder than forum posts.

[AceKinQueen]

That depends on diet. SS won't make you fat. Your diet will. SS is a program, not a diet. Ripp tries to combine the two because it helps with the mentality of diet being important to the program and its success, but they are two separate but related entities, (IMO).

I'm not saying you don't gain some fat as you bulk but that is not restrictive to SS as you're possibly implying.

I wasn't implying that fat gain is limited to SS. If you digest caloric surplus you're going to gain weight. In SS when you are gaining a lot of weight in a relatively short bit of time, you are going to get fat if you are lean to begin with, otherwise if you're fatter, you will become more lean (less fat) but generally keep a steady weight depending on your diet before.

The process of getting stronger in SS is directly related to your diet. So, I don't agree that diet/recovery and training are seperate entities in SS (and any program for that matter), more like halves/pieces of the same. Part of SS, and you can quote Rip on this, is nutrition and bodyweight....he constantly talks about something to the effective of "If you aren't eating properly/enough/(doing GOMAD or equivalent), you are not doing the program."

No. Once again this depends on diet and if you're consuming at a calorie deficit or surplus. Ripp wants skinny guys to do GOMAD whilst on SS so as well as it being a ridiculous assumption that they would lose fat.

If you have a high BF to begin with, and are actually doing the program, you will lose bodyfat - lean out. In other words, if you have high BF, bodyweight stays about the same as you develop LBM and lose fat.

I think you are replying to "if you are skinnier you will get both" though. It was probably the way I rushed the edit - when I said "both" I meant you would get both fat and muscle.

He'll probably burn an extra 90 calories doing that over SS. Its not a big deal, and its much easier to eat less. OP doesn't have to do his trainer's program to avoid getting fat.

Also you would assume there would be an attempt to add weight and reps each week but it has not been covered. Some trainers can be pretty dumb but to disregard progression altogether seems a step too far to assume.

OP doesn't have to do his trainers program to avoid getting fat, but he will generally have gained more weight after SS, compared to his trainers program. Whether he wants to do it or not depends on his goals, programming preference and whether he can cut or not. Also his diet. Also whether he is fat or not to begin with. I honestly don't get why you wrote this top line, I think you were just having fun breaking down sections of my post.

I didn't assume he had a set/rep/some method progression, I said he didn't seem to have one. I know too well about incompetent trainers, because when I started out I was given a program exactly like this. I got a little out of it but my time would have been better spent on a linear progression like SS.

Then again, if OP wants to do his trainer's program he should. If he really doesnt want to do SS then I think his time would be better spent doing something else.

Regarding the whole diet and training thing possibly or possibly not being a part of the program, even if it is there's no reason why OP should consume a gallon of milk a day on top of what he would be eating normally if he's a skinny guy. There's no point gaining unnecessary fat on a 2200 calorie surplus and spending a significant and unnecessary amount of time cutting fat later on.

Yes there is a point to GOMAD. If OP was getting the caloric surplus from food, then yes, he wouldnt have to use GOMAD. But GOMAD is considered as part of the caloric surplus. So it is part of the progam, and there is absolutely a point to it. If you aren't on caloric surplus as a skinnier guy, you are not doing the program.

With 1.5-2 months to cut, I doubt that OP couldn't lose the fat he gained on SS if he doesn't go ****-crazy-overboard and rise to 30% BF. Easily could cut from around 20% to somewhere decent in the time he gave for cutting.

[Moosaka]

Then again, if OP wants to do his trainer's program he should. If he really doesnt want to do SS then I think his time would be better spent doing something else.

I am very interested in doing SS right this time, but I am somewhat stubborn. I have this feeling that SS would just not feel right. Even when i started working out, I was given this high set/rep routine to follow, it proved to be good, but I soon began to hit my plateaus (noob gains, i know). So switching from workouts like that, to this, would feel awkward. But on the other hand, eventhough I am stubborn a little, i can succumb to knowledge of Mark Rippetoe.

The possible fat gains don't concern me that much, but my diet during the whole SS program does. I am not sure i would benefit that much from it with my current meal plan, if in fact you can call my eating habits a 'meal plan'.

[NZninja101]

I wasn't implying that fat gain is limited to SS. If you digest caloric surplus you're going to gain weight. In SS when you are gaining a lot of weight in a relatively short bit of time, you are going to get fat if you are lean to begin with, otherwise if you're fatter, you will become more lean (less fat) but generally keep a steady weight depending on your diet before.

If you do what Ripp says with regard to diet, sure. I just think that starting strength is a program and not a program AND a diet, but this is just my opinion so I'm probably just beating a dead horse with you here.

The process of getting stronger in SS is directly related to your diet. So, I don't agree that diet/recovery and training are seperate entities in SS (and any program for that matter), more like halves/pieces of the same. Part of SS, and you can quote Rip on this, is nutrition and bodyweight....he constantly talks about something to the effective of "If you aren't eating properly/enough/(doing GOMAD or equivalent), you are not doing the program."

Of course Ripp would say that. He wants the program, (which is intended to make one stronger) to work. [b]Ripp is not that fussed about fat gain. GOMAD is just a way to ensure ALL the guys who run his program get enough calories and protein. GOMAD is like the easiest diet suggestion of all time; hard to misunderstand and easy to remember. But I just think that getting a 2200 calorie surplus is unnecessary and would personally consider a skinny guy who did all the lifts in SS, for the desired reps, sets, frequency and progression, but only consumed enough calories that they gained a pound a week, I'd still consider him as having done the program. But that's just me.

If you have a high BF to begin with, and are actually doing the program, you will lose bodyfat - lean out. In other words, if you have high BF, bodyweight stays about the same as you develop LBM and lose fat.

I think you are replying to "if you are skinnier you will get both" though. It was probably the way I rushed the edit - when I said "both" I meant you would get both fat and muscle.

The problem with this is that you leave people to guess whether you're talking about the program of Starting Strength as simply the training aspect or training+diet. Then you get guys who think, 'I don't want to do SS because I'll get fat', without realizing that this is the diet aspect and can be modified. You don't need a 2200 calorie surplus to get stronger.

OP doesn't have to do his trainers program to avoid getting fat, but he will generally have gained more weight after SS, compared to his trainers program. Whether he wants to do it or not depends on his goals, programming preference and whether he can cut or not. Also his diet. Also whether he is fat or not to begin with. I honestly don't get why you wrote this top line, I think you were just having fun breaking down sections of my post.

It makes perfect sense if you consider that the training aspect of SS is separate to the diet aspect. I'm not asking you to change your viewpoint, only that next time you talk about SS in a context like this, that you initially state that your post is based on the idea that the training AND diet aspect as recommended by Mark Rippetoe are part of SS.

I didn't assume he had a set/rep/some method progression, I said he didn't seem to have one.

'the main problem I have with it is that you don't seem to have a way to scale the weights/reps and actually get better. It is a bit of a 'maintenance' program.'

I know too well about incompetent trainers, because when I started out I was given a program exactly like this. I got a little out of it but my time would have been better spent on a linear progression like SS.

Your trainer didn't even go over progression? Damn sounds like you got screwed over there. I guess you really can't assume things like that.

Yes there is a point to GOMAD. If OP was getting the caloric surplus from food, then yes, he wouldnt have to use GOMAD. But GOMAD is considered as part of the caloric surplus. So it is part of the progam, and there is absolutely a point to it. If you aren't on caloric surplus as a skinnier guy, you are not doing the program.

With 1.5-2 months to cut, I doubt that OP couldn't lose the fat he gained on SS if he doesn't go ****-crazy-overboard and rise to 30% BF. Easily could cut from around 20% to somewhere decent in the time he gave for cutting.

You don't need a 2200 calorie surplus to have a calorie surplus. He shouldn't need to cut for the extended period that he would get gaining over 4 pounds a week on GOMAD.

[Jasonk282]

I do SS...I DON'T do GOMAD, I just eat in a surplus of 500 calories...gained 5lbs in 5 weeks also my lifts increased by 50lbs in 5 weeks on squats, 45lbs on bench and 70lbs on dead. Though In my 6th week now and am close to stalling on squats and stalled once on OHP.

[Moosaka]

No clue what to do today in the gym.

[musikguy72]

No clue what to do today in the gym.

I thought you were interested in SS or AllPro. Change your mind?

[Moosaka]

I thought you were interested in SS or AllPro. Change your mind?

I am. But please read the last post of mine.

[GinjaNinja85]

The possible fat gains don't concern me that much, but my diet during the whole SS program does. I am not sure i would benefit that much from it with my current meal plan, if in fact you can call my eating habits a 'meal plan'.

Then eat more

[aspengc8]

5 times is too much for a natty.No way that u can recover from dat volume if ur going hard.

Not sure if srs. I know a ton of guys training 5-6x week that are natty, and pretty big. Heck, we trained 6x week in college for football.

[musikguy72]

I am. But please read the last post of mine.

Ok. Reread your last couple of posts. I still don't know what the problem is. Maybe your overthinking this?
Pick a beginners program and start running it. If you start gaining, good. If not, up your calories until you are gaining. Gaining weight too fast? Lower your calories. Several months in you decide you don't like the routine or the results? Do a different routine. Rinse, repeat.

There's no good reason to not workout. Pick a program and go.

[AceKinQueen]

If you do what Ripp says with regard to diet, sure. I just think that starting strength is a program and not a program AND a diet, but this is just my opinion so I'm probably just beating a dead horse with you here.

...Then you get guys who think, 'I don't want to do SS because I'll get fat', without realizing that this is the diet aspect and can be modified. You don't need a 2200 calorie surplus to get stronger.

Pretty much. We are essentially talking about the same thing anyway. And I do agree with you, you don't need all the surplus to get stronger, but it sure as hell helps in extending gains through the later weeks of the program.

Your trainer didn't even go over progression? Damn sounds like you got screwed over there. I guess you really can't assume things like that.

I still remember the blank expression on his face when I asked him how I should increase the weight. Some PT's are really, really bad.



MOOSAKA

I am very interested in doing SS right this time, but I am somewhat stubborn. I have this feeling that SS would just not feel right. Even when i started working out, I was given this high set/rep routine to follow, it proved to be good, but I soon began to hit my plateaus (noob gains, i know). So switching from workouts like that, to this, would feel awkward. But on the other hand, eventhough I am stubborn a little, i can succumb to knowledge of Mark Rippetoe.

The possible fat gains don't concern me that much, but my diet during the whole SS program does. I am not sure i would benefit that much from it with my current meal plan, if in fact you can call my eating habits a 'meal plan'.

Moosaka, you will get better results in SS with the weights you are currently lifting. It makes more sense to me if you max out your linear progression, then go back into a hypertophy setup with heavier weights...you will get more bang for your buck.

As for your diet, look at what Jason k282 said:

I do SS...I DON'T do GOMAD, I just eat in a surplus of 500 calories...gained 5lbs in 5 weeks also my lifts increased by 50lbs in 5 weeks on squats, 45lbs on bench and 70lbs on dead. Though In my 6th week now and am close to stalling on squats and stalled once on OHP.

You can still do SS without a huge surplus, but if you take the big surplus you will have larger gains for a longer period of time (...and will also gain more weight). Its up to you what to do.

[Lackeos]

You deadlift 95 kg and military press 70 kg? How is that possible? Your deadlift is super low and your military press is inhumanly high. Have you only been working your upper body?

Btw, just do All Pro's