Green Tea causing serum Testosterone reduction

[sctp]

http://suppversity.blogspot.com/2011...wer-serum.html comments welcome

[rnewton4]

Many people say that it helps get rid of acne.............which would make sense if test is being lowered!
Could be legit!

[MJ1331]

interesting article

[Massa007]

Many people say that it helps get rid of acne.............which would make sense if test is being lowered!
Could be legit!

as I point out in the article, there is

a) a very narrow beneficial range, and
b) what you get largely depends on the catechin composition

^ given b) an extract with almost no EGCG could actually turn out to be a nice test-booster

[HappyDevil]

As the data in figure 2 goes to show, in the course of 26 days, even the consumption of the equivalent of 5 cups of green tea lead to a statistically significant -2% reduction in sperm count in the gonads of the adult rats who were orally administered with standardized doses green tea after it had been steeped for 15 minutes in 100ml of boiling water, then cooled to room temperature and combined with a second infusion from the same 2.5g of green tea, the catechin composition of which I plotted in figure 3.


As we see, the whole article is about animal study...So we need to wait for far more accurate study on humans........



a) a very narrow beneficial range, and
b) what you get largely depends on the catechin composition

^ given b) an extract with almost no EGCG could actually turn out to be a nice test-booster [/QUOTE]

[Massa007]

As the data in figure 2 goes to show, in the course of 26 days, even the consumption of the equivalent of 5 cups of green tea lead to a statistically significant -2% reduction in sperm count in the gonads of the adult rats who were orally administered with standardized doses green tea after it had been steeped for 15 minutes in 100ml of boiling water, then cooled to room temperature and combined with a second infusion from the same 2.5g of green tea, the catechin composition of which I plotted in figure 3.


As we see, the whole article is about animal study...So we need to wait for far more accurate study on humans........

While I agree that the results warrant confirmation in human trials, you do not have human trials for the benefits of a hell lot of supplements people are taking based on similar animal studies, yet when one of everyone's favorites is getting questioned suddenly "things only happen in animals"

[BHopPhilly]

The testosterone levels probably dropped due to the rapid weight loss which is what happens to pretty much all hormone levels.

[Massa007]

The testosterone levels probably dropped due to the rapid weight loss which is what happens to pretty much all hormone levels.

this would be a valid suggestion (although it could easily be the other way around) IF there had been any weight loss. The animals did not gain as much weight, they did not lose any and the latter obiously would be related to low testosterone and NOT VICE VERSA

[HappyDevil]

While I agree that the results warrant confirmation in human trials, you do not have human trials for the benefits of a hell lot of supplements people are taking based on similar animal studies, yet when one of everyone's favorites is getting questioned suddenly "things only happen in animals"

Thats why i personally dont use supplements, with no proof that they are working on humans...And yes ,we have loads of stuff that promise miracle(based on animal study) Like ecdysterone for example. But the truth is, ur body is a far more complex machine that litte rat body...

[Massa007]

Thats why i personally dont use supplements, with no proof that they are working on humans...And yes ,we have loads of stuff that promise miracle(based on animal study) Like ecdysterone for example. But the truth is, ur body is a far more complex machine that litte rat body...

one of the main culprits of the rodent model is the abundance of brown adipose tissue in rodents; what nature created to keep those little critters warm just reacts to almost every stimulant under the sky by ramping up fatty acid oxidation - the unfortunate consequence is that we have 1001 fat burners that work in rats (at least to some degree) and just a handful (all of which are not FDA-compliant) that work in humans

[Massa007]

one of the main culprits of the rodent model is the abundance of brown adipose tissue in rodents; what nature created to keep those little critters warm just reacts to almost every stimulant under the sky by ramping up fatty acid oxidation - the unfortunate consequence is that we have 1001 fat burners that work in rats (at least to some degree) and just a handful (all of which are not FDA-compliant) that work in humans

I forgot to add: rats are probably a better model for testicular morphology than for human metabolism, thus I would rather trust a rat study in terms of testicular damage than in terms of the fat loss effects of green tea, on which I am still not 100% sold (at least not as far as the underlying mechanisms of action are concerned)

[bigkarl]

Will not stop me from drinking a half gallon a day. It replaced soft drinks for me!!

[Massa007]

Will not stop me from drinking a half gallon a day. It replaced soft drinks for me!!

if you take a closer look at the data in the post you will notice that given you are using a tea with a low EGCG and a high EC + EGC content this practice could actually boost your testosterone significantly

[sctp]

if you take a closer look at the data in the post you will notice that given you are using a tea with a low EGCG and a high EC + EGC content this practice could actually boost your testosterone significantly

i don't know any people knowing the exact amount of EGCG in their tea tbh..apart from brewing time and water temperature,is it possible to control the content somehow else? Massa what do you think about http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/now/gtea.htm and http://www.myprotein.com/uk/products/green_tea_extract .Thanks.

[Massa007]

i don't know any people knowing the exact amount of EGCG in their tea tbh..apart from brewing time and water temperature,is it possible to control the content somehow else? Massa what do you think about http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/now/gtea.htm and http://www.myprotein.com/uk/products/green_tea_extract .Thanks.

I have used the myprotein product myself, but did not measure T levels. I must yet say that after the initial 2-3 days where I felt energized the effect reversed and I still have the rest of the powder somewhere in my supp stash (don't use it anymore)

the NOW product has 200mg (i.e. 50%, according to http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...201000644/full) EGCG; this would even be more than is declared on the label (where it says 40% catechins) and would thus mean that you will hardly get any testboosting but a hell lot of test-reducing catechins.

the Myprotein product has less EGCG (10%) and 25% catechins overall... chances are at least a little higher here that you could have a 50:50 ratio of pro to anti test

wrt to your green tea, I cannot help, but you could of course take a study like this > http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...7002320201036X as a reference, where catechin levels in the tea and serum catechin levels after ingestion of a commercially available green tea were


GC 28%
EGC 14%
C 7%
EGCg 20%
EC 3%
GCg 19%
ECg 4%
Cg 4%

[Therickz]

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/now/egcg.html

Green Tea Extract(Camellia Sinensis)(Leaf)(Standardized Extract)(Contains 4 Mg Of Caffeine)[Min. 98% Total Polyphenols, 80% Total Catechins, And 50% EGCg (Epigallocatechin Gallate)(200mg)]

[Massa007]

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/now/egcg.html

Green Tea Extract(Camellia Sinensis)(Leaf)(Standardized Extract)(Contains 4 Mg Of Caffeine)[Min. 98% Total Polyphenols, 80% Total Catechins, And 50% EGCg (Epigallocatechin Gallate)(200mg)]

well, this may be a weight loss (not fat loss) friendly composition, but propably not optimal for your test levels, if of the 80% Catechins 50% are EGCGg the ratio of pro vs. anti testosterone catechines must necessarily be < 1

[Therickz]

well, this may be a weight loss (not fat loss) friendly composition, but propably not optimal for your test levels, if of the 80% Catechins 50% are EGCGg the ratio of pro vs. anti testosterone catechines must necessarily be < 1

but if 50% of the 80% catechins are not EGCg, its fine right?

[Massa007]

but if 50% of the 80% catechins are not EGCg, its fine right?

this is a question I cannot answer, I can only tell you that the higher the (EC+EGC)/(ECG+EGCG) ratio (cf. explanation in red box > http://suppversity.blogspot.com/2011...wer-serum.html) is the less likely it would be that you see a negative impact on your testosterone levels... now, on the other hand, the test-killer EGCG is the catechin for which green tea is celebrated as a fat burner... I leave it up to you to decide whether you want to spent (or waste?) money on green tea extracts. I would however not advise to stop drinking 1-2 cups of green tea, it is absolutely unlikely that you would get from a dose as low as that anything but beneficial effects

[Therickz]

this is a question I cannot answer, I can only tell you that the higher the (EC+EGC)/(ECG+EGCG) ratio (cf. explanation in red box > http://suppversity.blogspot.com/2011...wer-serum.html) is the less likely it would be that you see a negative impact on your testosterone levels... now, on the other hand, the test-killer EGCG is the catechin for which green tea is celebrated as a fat burner... I leave it up to you to decide whether you want to spent (or waste?) money on green tea extracts. I would however not advise to stop drinking 1-2 cups of green tea, it is absolutely unlikely that you would get from a dose as low as that anything but beneficial effects

would you get http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/now/gtea.htm or http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/now/egcg.html tho?

[Massa007]

would you get http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/now/gtea.htm or http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/now/egcg.html tho?

certainly the first one.

I am, and this is not green tee specific, against isolating single nutrients from "health foods", when we do not really know that it is not the synergy of various ingredients that does the magic

[NO HYPE]

I am against isolating single nutrients from "health foods", when we do not really know that it is not the synergy of various ingredients that does the magic

With that stance, you might be missing out on some rather beneficial physiological effects [but to each their own]. Provided there is sufficient research, the study of a compound's kinetics/dynamics can accurately determine what that particular compound's mechanism of action is within the body, and wether or not there is some degree of synergistic activity within the parent compound as a whole.

Case in point; tumeric/curcumin/demethoxycurcumin/bisdemethoxycurcumin

[Massa007]

With that stance, you might be missing out on some rather beneficial physiological effects [but to each their own]. Provided there is sufficient research, the study of a compound's kinetics/dynamics can accurately determine what that particular compound's mechanism of action is within the body, and wether or not there is some degree of synergistic activity within the parent compound as a whole.

Case in point; tumeric/curcumin/demethoxycurcumin/bisdemethoxycurcumin

you are right, but in the case of green tea, I am not sold that what you wrote yourself and I bolded is the case - we simply do not really know if the beneficial effects from isolated EGCG do not come with unwanted side effects.

[NO HYPE]

we simply do not really know if the beneficial effects from isolated EGCG do not come with unwanted side effects.

Agreed. My comments merely pertained to your opinion that you were "against isolating single nutrients". Nonetheless, interesting subject. Thanks for the link to the full text. I'll have to check that out.

[Massa007]

Agreed. My comments merely pertained to your opinion that you were "against isolating single nutrients". Nonetheless, interesting subject. Thanks for the link to the full text. I'll have to check that out.

always good when "great minds think alike" *rofl*

but back on topic. it is quite evident that 1-2 (in case of real = small tea cups even 3-4) cups of green tea are 100% beneficial (I would not care about the catechin ratios, then - as long as the tea is free of pesticides and co)... now, we have those studies showing that EGCG helps with WEIGHT loss which are obviously those the supp companies promote to make you buy their EXTRACTs;

secondly, we have studies like the one I cite in my blogpost that are usually sweeped under the mat by the very same supplement producers that highlight the aforementioned studies

and last but not least, we have interesting studies like this

Nutr Res. 2009 Nov;29(11):784-93.
Green tea, black tea, and epigallocatechin modify body composition, improve glucose tolerance, and differentially alter metabolic gene expression in rats fed a high-fat diet.
Chen N, Bezzina R, Hinch E, Lewandowski PA, Cameron-Smith D, Mathai ML, Jois M, Sinclair AJ, Begg DP, Wark JD, Weisinger HS, Weisinger RS.
Source

Department of Optometry and Vision Sciences, University of Melbourne, Australia.
Abstract

The mechanisms of how tea and epigallocatechin-3-gallate (EGCG) lower body fat are not completely understood. This study investigated long-term administration of green tea (GT), black tea (BT), or isolated EGCG (1 mg/kg per day) on body composition, glucose tolerance, and gene expression related to energy metabolism and lipid homeostasis; it was hypothesized that all treatments would improve the indicators of metabolic syndrome. Rats were fed a 15% fat diet for 6 months from 4 weeks of age and were supplied GT, BT, EGCG, or water. GT and BT reduced body fat, whereas GT and EGCG increased lean mass. At 16 weeks GT, BT, and EGCG improved glucose tolerance. In the liver, GT and BT increased the expression of genes involved in fatty acid synthesis (SREBP-1c, FAS, MCD, ACC) and oxidation (PPAR-alpha, CPT-1, ACO); however, EGCG had no effect. In perirenal fat, genes that mediate adipocyte differentiation were suppressed by GT (Pref-1, C/EBP-beta, and PPAR-gamma) and BT (C/EBP-beta), while decreasing LPL, HSL, and UCP-2 expression; EGCG increased expression of UCP-2 and PPAR-gamma genes. Liver triacylglycerol content was unchanged. The results suggest that GT and BT suppressed adipocyte differentiation and fatty acid uptake into adipose tissue, while increasing fat synthesis and oxidation by the liver, without inducing hepatic fat accumulation. In contrast, EGCG increased markers of thermogenesis and differentiation in adipose tissue, while having no effect on liver or muscle tissues at this dose. These results show novel and separate mechanisms by which tea and EGCG may improve glucose tolerance and support a role for these compounds in obesity prevention.

^ the few exception that provide a differntial (and thus appropriate) perspective

btw: Whenever I hear of isolation I come to think of the vitamin E disaster, where we took the one we thought to be the most powerful (alpha tocopherol), produced a synthetic version, put it into every product and keep poisoning ourselves with a rip-off of an anti-oxidant that is not meant to be taken in isolation, but always in concerned with the rest of the vitaminS-E cf. http://suppversity.blogspot.com/2011...ure-delta.html & similar

[rhizome]

ITT: spamming suppversity and human equivalent dose fail in suppversity article see sig pls

[Massa007]

ITT: spamming suppversity and human equivalent dose fail in suppversity article see sig pls

I guess you prefer the highly objective gabber of the 1001 company reps on the boards then!?

well, to each man his own