fasted cardio? anyone?

[OoFaP]

Does having amino acids before count as fasted cardio?

[YoungEx20]

Wow so basically the way I understand it is eating before cardio not only does NOT make you burn less fat but also DOES make you hold onto more muscle? Is that what this means pretty much?

[Cumulonimbus]

Wow so basically the way I understand it is eating before cardio not only does NOT make you burn less fat but also DOES make you hold onto more muscle? Is that what this means pretty much?

Yes. You get a better and more efficient workout. Weight loss is about the net loss, not what is happening at the moment. Your body is constantly storing and oxidizing fat, it's the balance that determines weight loss, and that is simply through a caloric deficit.

[yzrider400f]

I actually authored the article that appears in the current NSCA Strength and Conditioning Journal. The claim that fasted cardio results in greater fat loss is based on selective science and misinterpretation of research. Hopefully my article provides sufficient evidence-based research to dispel this myth. Moreover, as has been pointed out here, training in a glycogen-depleted state has been shown to increase muscle catabolism--not a good thing if you're a bodybuilder. I'd be happy to email a PDF of the article to anyone who requests. Just let me know.

Brad

**************************
Brad Schoenfeld, MSc, CSCS
Global Fitness Services
workout911.com
**************************

Requesting the article here! Will send you a PM

[Agostage]

-fat burning consists of 1) liberating fatty acids from adipose tissue through lipolysis and then transport of those fatty acids to other tissues like muscle, liver, heart where they are then 2) oxidized for energy. When you eat before cardio you reduce lipolysis but it ends up not making a difference because lipolysis is NOT the rate limiting step of fat loss when it comes to cardio, it is oxidation that is rate limiting so you end up oxidizing the same amount

I just had a flashback to Chemistry 109 - but I believe I understand

[Slovation]

Not sure if it has been covered but the only time its necessary to do cardio "fasted" (just aminos) would be if one is supplementing with yohimbine?

[str8flexed]

still doesn't make it nessecary

[Slovation]

still doesn't make it nessecary

If Im not mistaken if taking yohi in the presence of carbs will blunt its effects correct?

[str8flexed]

high insulin levels will inhibit yohimbines effects.

moderate amount of carbs do not = high insulin

[Slovation]

high insulin levels will inhibit yohimbines effects.

moderate amount of carbs do not = high insulin

ok gotchya thanks

[fltallpaul]

high insulin levels will inhibit yohimbines effects.

moderate amount of carbs do not = high insulin

So the protocol to take yohimbe at the end of a workout and then do cardio is a perfect combo correct?

[Flynn]

First, I only do what I am told and the scientific and theoretical analyses along with the references are above my pay-grade . So, let me see if I understand this:

It is not that Fasted Morning Cardio (“FMC”) does not work, but that [you] have to take into account the “Risk | Reward” benefit. As it relates to Cardio, you want the greatest reward while taking the least amount of risk, i.e., reducing body-fat while retaining muscle.

FMC, while having the ability to reduce body-fat, also carry a greater risk of losing muscle. Conversely, non FMC will offer the same [and possibly better] benefit while minimizing the risk of losing muscle. So rhetorically, why would someone want to take more risk for the same or lesser benefit.

Am I in the park or sitting in the parking lot ?

[bschoenfeld]

Brad, I've been arguing this til I've been blue in the face for the better part of a decade. THANK YOU for putting together such a fantastic peer review of the literature

My pleasure Layne. Equally good to see a high level bodybuilder such as yourself take a truly scientific approach to training (and attain a doctorate in the field, no less!). Very impressive that you take the time to share your knowledge and help others.

Cheers!

Brad

[BB2K]

Does having amino acids before count as fasted cardio?

From what i have always heard taking BCAAs like XTEND pre/intra cardio helps stop muscle loss. But i would think a meal is best, hell why not a small meal and xtend?

Ive tried the fasted cardio / weight training thing, it lasted a few days and i felt overtrained big time. Headaches, nausea, muscle aches and more. I need food before training/cardio, but lucky little me doesnt "need" cardio. My diet does a vast amount of the work for me, i do very little cardio and lean out nicely.

[2020Wellness]

http://growthstimulustraining.com/wordpress/?p=155

There are some interesting points in that article yhat are worth considering. It isn't study based, but it is full of common sense and experience. I think people in the thread will enjoy the quick read.

[DietDoc]

I feel like I'm wandering into a foreign country without a passport; I'm not sure I've ever posted on bb.com, but a client sent me this link and asked me to comment. The full article reports in the International Journal of Sport Nutrition and Exercise Metabolism drew more conclusions from an 8-subject study than you may want to validate as pure science, but nonetheless, it is common sense. You're as catabolic as you can be when you wake up, then you would want to perform an exponentially more catabolic activity? I looked back and the first time I published an article mentioning that I never recommend fasted cardio was 9 years ago. I would break the argument down into two sections. The first is the status of your body comp. If you're a male and at 16% BF - well above potential metabolic set points - fasting cardio isn't going to be that catabolic at all. It's safer to do more cardio, longer cardio, etc; but still not necessary for it to be fasted. In that example, however, I wouldn't eat a full meal - that would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. The study showed even 24 hours later the non-fasted subjects were using a higher percent of body fat as energy - all good - but you can still get more fat used during the cardio if you're a minimalist with your pre-cardio intake. If due to the direct thermic potential of the food eaten, I get more calorie use in that cardio, should I eat 400 calories or would 40 calories be enough? If only 40 calories, wouldn't I use more energy from fat plus still get benefits of increased lipolysis all day? Yes - but it's still a continuum....you're still in a calorie deficit all day and you still have your total food consumption to consider. Fasted or fed cardio doesn't occur in a vaccuum; it's still just one part of your whole day. Those with lower body fat percentages have to be more wary of catabolism, so fed cardio for sure, but shorter sessions. My recommendations remain (depending on body size) 10-20 g of carbs and 4-5 g of BCAA about 15-20 minutes before morning cardio....or even afternoon/evening cardio given that your last full meal was 2 to 3 hours prior. You don't need protein bogging you down pre-cardio, 5 g of BCAAs has as much anti-catabolic power as 25 g of protein from whey. Sorry the post was so long - blame my client for wanting the explanation! ; )

[solid252]

I feel like I'm wandering into a foreign country without a passport; I'm not sure I've ever posted on bb.com, but a client sent me this link and asked me to comment. The full article reports in the International Journal of Sport Nutrition and Exercise Metabolism drew more conclusions from an 8-subject study than you may want to validate as pure science, but nonetheless, it is common sense. You're as catabolic as you can be when you wake up, then you would want to perform an exponentially more catabolic activity? I looked back and the first time I published an article mentioning that I never recommend fasted cardio was 9 years ago. I would break the argument down into two sections. The first is the status of your body comp. If you're a male and at 16% BF - well above potential metabolic set points - fasting cardio isn't going to be that catabolic at all. It's safer to do more cardio, longer cardio, etc; but still not necessary for it to be fasted. In that example, however, I wouldn't eat a full meal - that would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. The study showed even 24 hours later the non-fasted subjects were using a higher percent of body fat as energy - all good - but you can still get more fat used during the cardio if you're a minimalist with your pre-cardio intake. If due to the direct thermic potential of the food eaten, I get more calorie use in that cardio, should I eat 400 calories or would 40 calories be enough? If only 40 calories, wouldn't I use more energy from fat plus still get benefits of increased lipolysis all day? Yes - but it's still a continuum....you're still in a calorie deficit all day and you still have your total food consumption to consider. Fasted or fed cardio doesn't occur in a vaccuum; it's still just one part of your whole day. Those with lower body fat percentages have to be more wary of catabolism, so fed cardio for sure, but shorter sessions. My recommendations remain (depending on body size) 10-20 g of carbs and 4-5 g of BCAA about 15-20 minutes before morning cardio....or even afternoon/evening cardio given that your last full meal was 2 to 3 hours prior. You don't need protein bogging you down pre-cardio, 5 g of BCAAs has as much anti-catabolic power as 25 g of protein from whey. Sorry the post was so long - blame my client for wanting the explanation! ; )

*APPLAUSE*

Thank you for taking the time to write this!

[fltallpaul]

I feel like I'm wandering into a foreign country without a passport; I'm not sure I've ever posted on bb.com, but a client sent me this link and asked me to comment. The full article reports in the International Journal of Sport Nutrition and Exercise Metabolism drew more conclusions from an 8-subject study than you may want to validate as pure science, but nonetheless, it is common sense. You're as catabolic as you can be when you wake up, then you would want to perform an exponentially more catabolic activity? I looked back and the first time I published an article mentioning that I never recommend fasted cardio was 9 years ago. I would break the argument down into two sections. The first is the status of your body comp. If you're a male and at 16% BF - well above potential metabolic set points - fasting cardio isn't going to be that catabolic at all. It's safer to do more cardio, longer cardio, etc; but still not necessary for it to be fasted. In that example, however, I wouldn't eat a full meal - that would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. The study showed even 24 hours later the non-fasted subjects were using a higher percent of body fat as energy - all good - but you can still get more fat used during the cardio if you're a minimalist with your pre-cardio intake. If due to the direct thermic potential of the food eaten, I get more calorie use in that cardio, should I eat 400 calories or would 40 calories be enough? If only 40 calories, wouldn't I use more energy from fat plus still get benefits of increased lipolysis all day? Yes - but it's still a continuum....you're still in a calorie deficit all day and you still have your total food consumption to consider. Fasted or fed cardio doesn't occur in a vaccuum; it's still just one part of your whole day. Those with lower body fat percentages have to be more wary of catabolism, so fed cardio for sure, but shorter sessions. My recommendations remain (depending on body size) 10-20 g of carbs and 4-5 g of BCAA about 15-20 minutes before morning cardio....or even afternoon/evening cardio given that your last full meal was 2 to 3 hours prior. You don't need protein bogging you down pre-cardio, 5 g of BCAAs has as much anti-catabolic power as 25 g of protein from whey. Sorry the post was so long - blame my client for wanting the explanation! ; )

Great to have you here Joe, Where else do you post? Do you have your own forum?

[str8flexed]

I feel like I'm wandering into a foreign country without a passport; I'm not sure I've ever posted on bb.com, but a client sent me this link and asked me to comment. The full article reports in the International Journal of Sport Nutrition and Exercise Metabolism drew more conclusions from an 8-subject study than you may want to validate as pure science, but nonetheless, it is common sense. You're as catabolic as you can be when you wake up, then you would want to perform an exponentially more catabolic activity? I looked back and the first time I published an article mentioning that I never recommend fasted cardio was 9 years ago. I would break the argument down into two sections. The first is the status of your body comp. If you're a male and at 16% BF - well above potential metabolic set points - fasting cardio isn't going to be that catabolic at all. It's safer to do more cardio, longer cardio, etc; but still not necessary for it to be fasted. In that example, however, I wouldn't eat a full meal - that would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. The study showed even 24 hours later the non-fasted subjects were using a higher percent of body fat as energy - all good - but you can still get more fat used during the cardio if you're a minimalist with your pre-cardio intake. If due to the direct thermic potential of the food eaten, I get more calorie use in that cardio, should I eat 400 calories or would 40 calories be enough? If only 40 calories, wouldn't I use more energy from fat plus still get benefits of increased lipolysis all day? Yes - but it's still a continuum....you're still in a calorie deficit all day and you still have your total food consumption to consider. Fasted or fed cardio doesn't occur in a vaccuum; it's still just one part of your whole day. Those with lower body fat percentages have to be more wary of catabolism, so fed cardio for sure, but shorter sessions. My recommendations remain (depending on body size) 10-20 g of carbs and 4-5 g of BCAA about 15-20 minutes before morning cardio....or even afternoon/evening cardio given that your last full meal was 2 to 3 hours prior. You don't need protein bogging you down pre-cardio, 5 g of BCAAs has as much anti-catabolic power as 25 g of protein from whey. Sorry the post was so long - blame my client for wanting the explanation! ; )

whoa whoa whoa! what do YOU think you are doing on here! LOL. j/k, great to see you weigh in Joe, it must have been a really pushy client to get you to post here LOL.

This is one of those things you and I will disagree on. Even if a greater % of calories are burned from fat, research indicates that over a 24 hour period that is balanced out during the remainder of the day. I explain into it a lot more in my interview I did yesterday on http://www.superhumanradio.com yeseterday

Nice to have you hear, hope you choose to stick around. One day maybe you'll have 30,000 + posts like me

[mavrick77]

I know Layne has preached about this for some time:

The newest issue of the Strength and Conditioning Journal (Feb/March)Volume 33 number 1 has show this style of cardio to be the wrong way to go about burning extra fat stores along with the other thing most want to maintain their muscle by doing this as well and this practice has shown again to further breakdown the lean muscle in your body.

Overtime, fat burning is not an immediate process, it is one that occurs over the course of days not hours, so as you burn more carbohydrate during your workout, the body will burn more fat post exercise.

The study has also showed that having food(carbohydrate) precardio has been shown to not slow down lipolysis in the individual and in the fasted state even going after the breakdown of more fat, the body will take those excess fats that aren't oxidized and become re-esterfied(be stored back to fat). Also with the consumption of food before training increases the thermic effect of exercise(EPOC will be the highest by having food in your body not in the fasted state), yet another good reason to eat a little something before cardio in the am. This basically means that you are burning more cals while you are standing around after the workout is over.

Another negative factor to training in the fasted state is the impact on proteolysis(breaking down proteins AKA losing muscle), nitrogen losses more than doubled in the fasted state as compared to having glycogen within the body. Another good reason to have a little bit of food when doing cardio, whenever you do it.

the last thing it goes on to say is that in the fasted state, it will cause lower energy levels, thus decreasing the fat burning process. Performance here will suffer, especially when trying to do the far superior style of training, which is HIIT, (HIIT vs LISS), more energy when doing cardio=more cals burned both during and after physical activity, thus more fat burned.

So finally, given that training with depleted glycogen levels has been shown to increase proteolysis, the strategy has potential detrimental effects for those concerned with muscle strength and Hypertrophy.

So eat little meal and use those BCAAS to help retain lean muscle and burn more fat!

What do you think?

I can honestly tell ya, I have tried it both ways.... well actually all 3..

1)fasted cardio--lean, but lost a ton of muscle

2)non fasted cardio--helped with fat loss, but diet slowed, and burned a good amount of muscle when this happend.

3)NO cardio, all diet.--lost weight every week, and came in bigger.(could have been a tad sharper)

**I now try to diet with minimal cardio, 2-3x per week, and control diet thru calories.

[DietDoc]

Ha - looks like I signed on in 2009 and have one post - I'll be back in two years : )
Not sure we disagree, Layne; I used the word continuum for a reason. Calories expended are calories expended no matter when and calories consumed is the variable that's held up against - no argument there.....on the surface. I will disagree in blanketly applying that. Per your argument, I could eat all my food in one meal, do cardio an hour later, not eat for 23 hours, repeat, and it would "all balance out." I'm talking about the fine detail of dieting that takes into account anti-catabolism all day, anabolism where you can get it when dieting, and feasibility. Thus, I would propose that still having a very moderate amount of carbs pre-cardio is better than having a ton....the rest of the day and the rest of those variables do matter and I would bet if studies were done comparing 1% of daily carb intake was ingested pre-cardio, 5%, 10%, 20%, 50%, etc, it wouldn't all just balance out - there would be differences. One or two studies with a tiny test population wouldn't sway that logic - logic based on other concrete, known physiological dogma.

Don't drag me into a debate, Norton - I have work to do! : ) Damn you, now I'll have to keep coming back! (Hope you had a good time at the Arnold, buddy.)

[str8flexed]

no I agree with you there. I was more referring to substrate utilization during exercise is balanced out by substrate utilization over 24 hour period... ie you burn more carbs during training the body compensates by burning more fat the rest of the day and vice versa so the total output is similar

see ya in 2 years

[str8flexed]

I can honestly tell ya, I have tried it both ways.... well actually all 3..

1)fasted cardio--lean, but lost a ton of muscle

2)non fasted cardio--helped with fat loss, but diet slowed, and burned a good amount of muscle when this happend.

3)NO cardio, all diet.--lost weight every week, and came in bigger.(could have been a tad sharper)

**I now try to diet with minimal cardio, 2-3x per week, and control diet thru calories.

if you overdo the cardio this can definitely happen and too much can absolutely destroy your metabolism

[DietDoc]

31,142 posts - holy cow! I don't even know how that's possible.....but I'll take it as a challenge.....I'm up to 3! You're toast, Norton!

[Slovation]

A lot of great info. Thanks guys. The more and more I read on here it seems like the less you listen to people the better your off lol. Its as if as long as u keep things super simple, hit your macros/training, make necessary adjustments when needed, all the little things dont matter that much.....well for that extra little edge for the elite atheletes.

[mavrick77]

A lot of great info. Thanks guys. The more and more I read on here it seems like the less you listen to people the better your off lol. Its as if as long as u keep things super simple, hit your macros/training, make necessary adjustments when needed, all the little things dont matter that much.....well for that extra little edge for the elite atheletes.

Well said, keep it simple stupid! I have seen more guys blow their diet in the last week, because they tried to listen to other people, who don't know their body.

[thepacman]

31,142 posts - holy cow! I don't even know how that's possible.....but I'll take it as a challenge.....I'm up to 3! You're toast, Norton!

Well Joe, you just tripled your post counts today...let's see if Layne can do that!

[str8flexed]

Well Joe, you just tripled your post counts today...let's see if Layne can do that!

that prove to be difficult lol

[AustrianOakJr]

.

Don't drag me into a debate, Norton - I have work to do! : ) Damn you, now I'll have to keep coming back!

I love it! Glad to see your post. You have a HUGE fan base on this website. Keep bringing it!!

[BB2K]

I can honestly tell ya, I have tried it both ways.... well actually all 3..

1)fasted cardio--lean, but lost a ton of muscle

2)non fasted cardio--helped with fat loss, but diet slowed, and burned a good amount of muscle when this happend.

3)NO cardio, all diet.--lost weight every week, and came in bigger.(could have been a tad sharper)

**I now try to diet with minimal cardio, 2-3x per week, and control diet thru calories.

This is what i found works best for me. I let the diet do all of the work possible.