What Can Jesus Do For You?

[guardinlives]

See for yourself...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ik0yz5Jo4Os

[The-Judgement]

Props for being an atheist (me too) but this is no doubt offensive to a ****load of people and prob shouldnt be post ;o


i prob shouldnt even be bumping it but **** it ive typed 3 lines.

[wrastler94]

F*ck athiests

[CitrusZinus]

Not that I'm devoutly religious but why do atheists want to piss those with religion off. Grow up.

[LankedOut]

I am Jesus.

It isn't that hard to believe in me ya know.

[imachode]

See for yourself...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ik0yz5Jo4Os

beef broccoli 47:
tho shalt not boil thys spaghetti as thy neighbors

[pogom]

Jesus can make you less of an ass hole if you ask him ****ing ***

[LankedOut]

Jesus can make you less of an ass hole if you ask him ****ing ***

It all boils down to what mood I'm in brah.

[TheWunNOnly]

See for yourself...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ik0yz5Jo4Os

wow... just wow.. really? grow the fck up and keep that sht to yourself

[LukeN.Good]

Wrong section OP.

Not that I'm devoutly religious but why do atheists want to piss those with religion off. Grow up.

That's a two way street. As a pre-medical undergraduate majoring in biological science with a likely minor in chemistry, it's annoying to walk by protesters (on my way to biology class, no less) with signs stating "Evolution is a lie. Jesus is the real truth!" while I'm endeavoring to ultimately help rid their supposed souls of disease with the very concept they so ignorantly denounce.

That being said, I refer you to the converse of your own question.

[MrB1g]

Wrong section OP.



That's a two way street. As a pre-medical undergraduate majoring in biological science with a likely minor in chemistry, it's annoying to walk by protesters (on my way to biology class, no less) with signs stating "Evolution is a lie. Jesus is the real truth!" while I'm endeavoring to ultimately help rid their supposed souls of disease with the very concept they so ignorantly denounce.

That being said, I refer you to the converse of your own question.

Brb, flowers are such a complex and intricate organism that they simply MUST have been designed. In which case we postulate that 'God', an infinitely more complex and inexplicable entity created them.

Maybe in a few hundred years religious creationists will realise that if the relative simplicity of biological life is so complex that it is deemed to necessitate a 'creator' then so to this infinitely more complex God must himself have been created.



And so on, Ad Infinitum.

[Transcendancy]

Agreed. And considering how harmful the Christian religion is to science, the advancement if humanity and lives, it DESERVES ridicule. My bestfriend killed himself because he was gay and its the churches teaching that he can never have a relationship and fall in love or have sex becase that's evil. Why would a god make someone gay if acting on it is wrong? It's cruel and disgusting, an any religio that costs lives deserves non stop ridicule and non tolerance.

[MrB1g]

Agreed. And considering how harmful the Christian religion is to science, the advancement if humanity and lives, it DESERVES ridicule. My bestfriend killed himself because he was gay and its the churches teaching that he can never have a relationship and fall in love or have sex becase that's evil. Why would a god make someone gay if acting on it is wrong? It's cruel and disgusting, an any religio that costs lives deserves non stop ridicule and non tolerance.

Brb, have to discriminate against homosexuals because the Bible says so.

Brb, ignore the fact that the Bible also says that disobedient children should be killed.



Also, my condolences.

[LukeN.Good]

Brb, flowers are such a complex and intricate organism that they simply MUST have been designed. In which case we postulate that 'God', an infinitely more complex and inexplicable entity created them.

Maybe in a few hundred years religious creationists will realise that if the relative simplicity of biological life is so complex that it is deemed to necessitate a 'creator' then so to this infinitely more complex God must himself have been created.



And so on, Ad Infinitum.

Haha, that seems to be the consensus - therein lies the paradox of the ultimate (conveniently unquestionable) explanation and coping mechanism man has ever devised. The concept is admittedly brilliant in design, aside from an extreme deficit in the elementary aspect of reason.
(I'll leave it at that since my true sentiments on the matter are often labeled "controversial." Granted it's soon to be deleted anyway, I don't care to partake in the inanely pointless religious debate that always spawns from these threads.)

Agreed. And considering how harmful the Christian religion is to science, the advancement if humanity and lives, it DESERVES ridicule. My bestfriend killed himself because he was gay and its the churches teaching that he can never have a relationship and fall in love or have sex becase that's evil. Why would a god make someone gay if acting on it is wrong? It's cruel and disgusting, an any religio that costs lives deserves non stop ridicule and non tolerance.

A valid point. I couldn't care less what people believe so long as they keep it to themselves and it doesn't in any way hinder with my own life. To quote myself from a previous thread, the collective scientific oppression of various religious groups literally impedes the intellectual and technological progression of humanity. It's unsettling to witness education and enlightenment being dismissed for the hopeful supposition of a deity and/or afterlife.

Brb, have to discriminate against homosexuals because the Bible says so.

Brb, ignore the fact that the Bible also says that disobedient children should be killed.



Also, my condolences.

Are you SURE you're not one of them?

[pogom]

haha, that seems to be the consensus - therein lies the paradox of the ultimate (conveniently unquestionable) explanation and coping mechanism man has ever devised. The concept is admittedly brilliant in design, aside from an extreme deficit in the elementary aspect of reason.
(i'll leave it at that since my true sentiments on the matter are often labeled "controversial." granted it's soon to be deleted anyway, i don't care to partake in the inanely pointless religious debate that always spawns from these threads.)



a valid point. I couldn't care less what people believe so long as they keep it to themselves and it doesn't in any way hinder with my own life. To quote myself from a previous thread, the collective scientific oppression of various religious groups literally impedes the intellectual and technological progression of humanity. It's unsettling to witness education and enlightenment being dismissed for the hopeful supposition of a deity and/or afterlife.



Are you sure you're not one of them?

them some big words

[LukeN.Good]

them some big words

ORLY?

EDIT: It's been too long, I forgot about anti-caps...
EDIT: Nevermind, my edit resolved the issue.

[xRags]

Not that I'm devoutly religious but why do atheists want to piss those with religion off. Grow up.

As stated, it's a two-way street. There's plenty of fanatical Bible thumpers out there.

Brb, flowers are such a complex and intricate organism that they simply MUST have been designed. In which case we postulate that 'God', an infinitely more complex and inexplicable entity created them.

Maybe in a few hundred years religious creationists will realise that if the relative simplicity of biological life is so complex that it is deemed to necessitate a 'creator' then so to this infinitely more complex God must himself have been created.



And so on, Ad Infinitum.

The design argument shouldn't be based on a flower. It's a much more persuasive argument when talking about the origin of the universe (fine-tuning, w/e). Also, the theistic hypothesis suggests that God only has 3 traits, i.e. He's not very complicated at the basic level of theism.

Sidenote- I relate most to agnosticism, but I love philosophy and try to view both sides objectively. But surely you don't believe in an infinitely looped cause and effect series? That makes even less sense that theism.

Agreed. And considering how harmful the Christian religion is to science, the advancement if humanity and lives, it DESERVES ridicule. My bestfriend killed himself because he was gay and its the churches teaching that he can never have a relationship and fall in love or have sex becase that's evil. Why would a god make someone gay if acting on it is wrong? It's cruel and disgusting, an any religio that costs lives deserves non stop ridicule and non tolerance.

I'm not sure how Christianity is harmful to science (other than the theory of evolution), however Christianity is far from detrimental to "the advancement of humanity and lives." A large percentage of Christians spend years of their lives trying to aid other countries in relief efforts. Plenty of hospitals and research centers in the U.S. are also founded and funded by philanthropic Christians.
Most major religions, not just Christianity, have cost thousands of lives in the past-- just like any other group with a firm belief in something. It's an unfortunate fact.
I'm sorry that your friend killed himself, but religion is not solely to blame for that. Not every gay Christian kills him/herself. Odds are, he suffered from depression. Many people condemn homosexuals, it's not only a fault of Christians.

Brb, have to discriminate against homosexuals because the Bible says so.

Brb, ignore the fact that the Bible also says that disobedient children should be killed.



Also, my condolences.

Christians believe that Jesus fulfilled a "new covenant" i.e. "New Testament." The Old Testament laws are no longer binding, they are just there to learn from. (I guess Jews are still bound by them, technically?)
Old Testament says stranger stuff than killing disobedient children, anywho.

Also:

[MrB1g]

The design argument shouldn't be based on a flower. It's a much more persuasive argument when talking about the origin of the universe (fine-tuning, w/e). Also, the theistic hypothesis suggests that God only has 3 traits, i.e. He's not very complicated at the basic level of theism.

Sidenote- I relate most to agnosticism, but I love philosophy and try to view both sides objectively. But surely you don't believe in an infinitely looped cause and effect series? That makes even less sense that theism.



I'm not sure how Christianity is harmful to science (other than the theory of evolution), however Christianity is far from detrimental to "the advancement of humanity and lives." A large percentage of Christians spend years of their lives trying to aid other countries in relief efforts. Plenty of hospitals and research centers in the U.S. are also founded and funded by philanthropic Christians.
Most major religions, not just Christianity, have cost thousands of lives in the past-- just like any other group with a firm belief in something. It's an unfortunate fact.
I'm sorry that your friend killed himself, but religion is not solely to blame for that. Not every gay Christian kills him/herself. Odds are, he suffered from depression. Many people condemn homosexuals, it's not only a fault of Christians.



Christians believe that Jesus fulfilled a "new covenant" i.e. "New Testament." The Old Testament laws are no longer binding, they are just there to learn from. (I guess Jews are still bound by them, technically?)
Old Testament says stranger stuff than killing disobedient children, anywho.

No I don't believe in an infinitely looped series.

I was referring to the ludicrous Christian idea that life on Earth (not the origins of the Universe) is so complex that it must have been designed by a creator, which does simply put you in an infinite loop. I believe in evolution, simple as that.



The Old Testament laws are no longer binding? As far as I'm aware, the sections that have been taken to heart by so many Christians about homosexuality are IN the Old Testament. It's just a classic case of picking and choosing. Yes, we'll take this section of 'the Word of God', no, we couldn't possibly make that stick in a modern society so we'll leave that out. I'd love to see the reactions of modern Christians if they read the Gospels that were left out of the Bible.

[stoneagerebel]

Loll.
I got a strong theory bros about atheism...
Atheism is this cool thing some douche bag who had no time decided to make up because he was like... You know what? God doesn't exist...And I'm going to make sure He doesn't exist. In fact, atheists are going to be very intelligent people that try to disprove something that they surely think doesn't exist.

LIKE W T F is up with atheism?! It's 100000x dumber than religion.
Atheism was like made to prove that something doesn't exist?? wtf???

I might as well start something up to disprove the flying spaghetti monster, rofl.


Strong logic atheists for having strong logic.

Like, if you don't wanna believe in God or something, DON'T. Just gtfo haha. No one cares if u think that some dude with long brown hair was the Son of God or if some lizard humped a fish and made man ... just S T F U and think what you want to think D BAGS.

[PaynESTER]

See for yourself...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ik0yz5Jo4Os

what do you mean what can jesus do for me?

he was just a person

and has now been dead for

many many many many many years..

who gives a ****?

[TheWunNOnly]

Loll.
I got a strong theory bros about atheism...
Atheism is this cool thing some douche bag who had no time decided to make up because he was like... You know what? God doesn't exist...And I'm going to make sure He doesn't exist. In fact, atheists are going to be very intelligent people that try to disprove something that they surely think doesn't exist.

LIKE W T F is up with atheism?! It's 100000x dumber than religion.
Atheism was like made to prove that something doesn't exist?? wtf???

I might as well start something up to disprove the flying spaghetti monster, rofl.


Strong logic atheists for having strong logic.

Like, if you don't wanna believe in God or something, DON'T. Just gtfo haha. No one cares if u think that some dude with long brown hair was the Son of God or if some lizard humped a fish and made man ... just S T F U and think what you want to think D BAGS.

^^
free green from me to you (repped)

[PaynESTER]

Loll.
I got a strong theory bros about atheism...
Atheism is this cool thing some douche bag who had no time decided to make up because he was like... You know what? God doesn't exist...And I'm going to make sure He doesn't exist. In fact, atheists are going to be very intelligent people that try to disprove something that they surely think doesn't exist.

LIKE W T F is up with atheism?! It's 100000x dumber than religion.
Atheism was like made to prove that something doesn't exist?? wtf???

I might as well start something up to disprove the flying spaghetti monster, rofl.


Strong logic atheists for having strong logic.

Like, if you don't wanna believe in God or something, DON'T. Just gtfo haha. No one cares if u think that some dude with long brown hair was the Son of God or if some lizard humped a fish and made man ... just S T F U and think what you want to think D BAGS.

ok then think what you want a shut the **** up nerd..

god is fake.

[xRags]

No I don't believe in an infinitely looped series.

I was referring to the ludicrous Christian idea that life on Earth (not the origins of the Universe) is so complex that it must have been designed by a creator, which does simply put you in an infinite loop. I believe in evolution, simple as that.

It does not. I believe I covered that. And based on fundamental Christian beliefs, their argument for design is perfectly logical -- more so, in fact, than the naturalist's beliefs.

If you're interested, here's a small snippet from an essay I finished recently:
"However, naturalists often dispute this point, arguing that God’s inclusion in the universe binds him to premise 2 (Everything that exists contingently must have a cause.)—that is, God must also have a cause. This is an impossibility—by definition, God is uncaused (The theistic hypothesis states that God is a necessary being, i.e. non-contingent) . The dependence of God upon another being would also throw the causal pattern back into a loop, a contradiction of premise 3. (There cannot be an infinite number of causes to bring something into existence. (a) infinite loops ultimately have no cause (b) since the universe exists, it must have a cause) "

The Old Testament laws are no longer binding? As far as I'm aware, the sections that have been taken to heart by so many Christians about homosexuality are IN the Old Testament. It's just a classic case of picking and choosing. Yes, we'll take this section of 'the Word of God', no, we couldn't possibly make that stick in a modern society so we'll leave that out. I'd love to see the reactions of modern Christians if they read the Gospels that were left out of the Bible.

I told you, the OT is there to learn from, but the laws are no longer binding (Christians do not have to strictly follow them to earn salvation). The general ideas remain the same. To use your example, just because we no longer have to stone our disobedient children to death, does that mean they should no longer be punished at all? I'm not saying we should punish homosexuals, just refuting your point. Also, I believe it mentions homosexuals in Romans (NT).


You might enjoy these vids (srs) :

[LukeN.Good]

Here comes that "inane" part I mentioned (prophesied?) earlier, excluding xRags and MrB1g. Granted the context of their occurrence, none of these debates are ever very intellectually prospective.

[xRags]

Loll.
I got a strong theory bros about atheism...
Atheism is this cool thing some douche bag who had no time decided to make up because he was like... You know what? God doesn't exist...And I'm going to make sure He doesn't exist. In fact, atheists are going to be very intelligent people that try to disprove something that they surely think doesn't exist.

LIKE W T F is up with atheism?! It's 100000x dumber than religion.
Atheism was like made to prove that something doesn't exist?? wtf???

I might as well start something up to disprove the flying spaghetti monster, rofl.


Strong logic atheists for having strong logic.

Like, if you don't wanna believe in God or something, DON'T. Just gtfo haha. No one cares if u think that some dude with long brown hair was the Son of God or if some lizard humped a fish and made man ... just S T F U and think what you want to think D BAGS.

Considering the impact of religion on the world over the past several thousand years, I'd say atheists are perfectly justified in giving themselves a name.

Condescending arguments like this don't go anywhere.

Also, strong strawman logic is strong.

[PaynESTER]

answer this.


Why did god give us the most powerful tool the brain?

If, he doesn't not allow us to think?


let me explain.

He gave us a brain to let us think for ourselves make our own ideas.


So, if we use our brain and believe that he does not exist..

why would he send us to hell for not believing in him...

shouldn't he be happy that were are using our brains to think.

instead of say OH YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE IN GOD?

also,


why does god create killers/people who wont believe in him?

god knows everything

so why would he create someone that was just going to kill everyone if he knew in the year 1901 that in 1986 a man was going to be born who was killer?

why not just make that guy not exist at all.


also, if your locked up in a house for 30 years and die. and never learn to talk or learn about god..

you go to hell

but you never new anything..

what about all the other religions that..follow it to a tee and expect to go to heaven but end up going to hell for believing the wrong thing..that's not fair to them. they lived their life correct. you cant make them suffer because they were born into a different religion.



one last thing.

Lets say I made the first "Bible" and our god was an elephant. a Full grown elephant.

and the book talks about how this full grown elephant lives inside this lunch bag im holding, and if you do not believe you will go to hell. not heaven

everyone knows an elephant cannot fit in that lunch bag. so no one would believe it.


but lets teach my religion to someone who has never seen an elephant
they read my bible and its so convincing they want to believe it and go to heaven to be happy after death.

now i show them the bag and say the elephant lives in here. that person will say i do believe the elephant lives in that bag.

the only reason he believes is because he has never seen an elephant.so he doesnt know what it looks like or is.


so i just laugh at everyone who believes in god

[MrB1g]

It does not. I believe I covered that. And based on fundamental Christian beliefs, their argument for design is perfectly logical -- more so, in fact, than the naturalist's beliefs.

If you're interested, here's a small snippet from an essay I finished recently:
"However, naturalists often dispute this point, arguing that God’s inclusion in the universe binds him to premise 2 (Everything that exists contingently must have a cause.)—that is, God must also have a cause. This is an impossibility—by definition, God is uncaused (The theistic hypothesis states that God is a necessary being, i.e. non-contingent) . The dependence of God upon another being would also throw the causal pattern back into a loop, a contradiction of premise 3. (There cannot be an infinite number of causes to bring something into existence. (a) infinite loops ultimately have no cause (b) since the universe exists, it must have a cause) "



I told you, the OT is there to learn from, but the laws are no longer binding (Christians do not have to strictly follow them to earn salvation). The general ideas remain the same. To use your example, just because we no longer have to stone our disobedient children to death, does that mean they should no longer be punished at all? I'm not saying we should punish homosexuals, just refuting your point. Also, I believe it mentions homosexuals in Romans (NT).

This is the point where I think it's impossible to go further.

The problem I have with the Theistic approach is (borrowing from Dawkins here) the 'Gap' approach, whereby gaps in scientific knowledge are inevitably claimed by Theism. If science can offer no explanation, immediately there is a 'God must have caused it' approach. Obviously science is constantly advancing and the 'gaps' that Theism can claim as its own are diminshing, and I'm inclined to believe that as the years continue to pass by the gaps will continue to close, and I imagine the origins of life/time/space will be included. As far as I'm concerned it's a testimony of how weak the Thestic approach can be. How many times has something inexplicable said to have been 'the work of God' until years or decades later Science provides a complete explanation?

There is a very good reason why some of the most famous religious figures across the world have said that reason is the enemy of faith.


The other problem is the fact that our understanding of 'God' is a 100% human concept. You say by definition, God can have no cause. I agree, if there was a cause to God you would be stuck in a regression, however, it is still simply a human hypothesis.




I can't remember who originally expressed it, but I agree completely that if there is a God, surely he would be more pleased with intelligent questioning, then blind obedience and deliberate ignorance.


Curiously, what was the essay for? I'm assuming your doing a relevant course in Uni/College?

[xRags]

answer this.


Why did god give us the most powerful tool the brain?

If, he doesn't not allow us to think?


let me explain.

He gave us a brain to let us think for ourselves make our own ideas.


So, if we use our brain and believe that he does not exist..

why would he send us to hell for not believing in him...

shouldn't he be happy that were are using our brains to think.

instead of say OH YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE IN GOD?

Y'all sure are makin me work tonight.

Suppose you give your child some duct tape to use at his own discretion. Your child believes that no harm may come from duct tape -- after all, it's such an ingenious tool, how could it be misused? If your child then strangles another child, would you then be happy that he used the duct tape you gave him? Or might you punish your child in the hopes that he will someday realize his mistakes?

also,


why does god create killers/people who wont believe in him?

god knows everything

so why would he create someone that was just going to kill everyone if he knew in the year 1901 that in 1986 a man was going to be born who was killer?

why not just make that guy not exist at all.

The answer to this question depends entirely on an individual's interpretation of one of the fundamental traits of God in the theistic hypothesis (i.e. God is almighty) If God is almighty, he is omniscient, therefore, God knows all that there is to know-- both actual and potential things. If you believe that includes one's choices they make throughout their life, then you are a proponent of predestination (calvanism) and your argument would make sense.

However, the way I'd like to see it (the way that allows free will), God is indeed omniscient, but it is impossible to know something that does not yet exist -- therefore, God can make a highly accurate and reasoned "guess" based upon what people in the past have done and what you have done in the past, and he may know every option available to an individual, but it is impossible for God to know exactly which choice that person will make.
Thus, every person has the same chance to earn their salvation.

There's a few other twists on it, but I'm not very learned on them.

also, if your locked up in a house for 30 years and die. and never learn to talk or learn about god..

you go to hell

but you never new anything..

what about all the other religions that..follow it to a tee and expect to go to heaven but end up going to hell for believing the wrong thing..that's not fair to them. they lived their life correct. you cant make them suffer because they were born into a different religion.

To be honest, I don't know of any Biblical backdoors to this. However, I believe (I could be wrong) that the Bible says that God will lift all the souls out of hell at the end of the world when his new kingdom comes... or something like that. Basically, everyone goes to heaven if they repent in hell (who the heck wouldn't?).

I've wondered about that myself.

one last thing.

Lets say I made the first "Bible" and our god was an elephant. a Full grown elephant.

and the book talks about how this full grown elephant lives inside this lunch bag im holding, and if you do not believe you will go to hell. not heaven

everyone knows an elephant cannot fit in that lunch bag. so no one would believe it.


but lets teach my religion to someone who has never seen an elephant
they read my bible and its so convincing they want to believe it and go to heaven to be happy after death.

now i show them the bag and say the elephant lives in here. that person will say i do believe the elephant lives in that bag.

the only reason he believes is because he has never seen an elephant.so he doesnt know what it looks like or is.


so i just laugh at everyone who believes in god

Irrelevant, God is a giraffe.

I actually have no idea what the point your trying to argue is on that part, but your conclusion is retarded.

(why would you laugh at anyone who believes in elephants, anyway?)

[xRags]

This is the point where I think it's impossible to go further.

The problem I have with the Theistic approach is (borrowing from Dawkins here) the 'Gap' approach, whereby gaps in scientific knowledge are inevitably claimed by Theism. If science can offer no explanation, immediately there is a 'God must have caused it' approach. Obviously science is constantly advancing and the 'gaps' that Theism can claim as its own are diminshing, and I'm inclined to believe that as the years continue to pass by the gaps will continue to close, and I imagine the origins of life/time/space will be included. As far as I'm concerned it's a testimony of how weak the Thestic approach can be. How many times has something inexplicable said to have been 'the work of God' until years or decades later Science provides a complete explanation?

There is a very good reason why some of the most famous religious figures across the world have said that reason is the enemy of faith.


The other problem is the fact that our understanding of 'God' is a 100% human concept. You say by definition, God can have no cause. I agree, if there was a cause to God you would be stuck in a regression, however, it is still simply a human hypothesis.





Curiously, what was the essay for? I'm assuming your doing a relevant course in Uni/College?

Indeed. First year philosophy major, the essay was to evaluate the arguments made by Naturalists vs. Theists and decide which position (at the fundemental level, mind you, I don't know the ins and outs of either position's sub-levels) held the best explanation (note, not proof) for the origin of the universe and design of the universe. I've loved philosophy ever since I was young, took this major because I've got no idea what career I want to pursue at this point. Was raised Christian, decided I hated the idea of God after several things happened in my life, then reasoned my way into agnosticism after much research / reading.

The only thing that I know of Dawkins off the top of my head is that he claims that Darwin made it possible to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist-- which is true, but I've no knowledge of the guy past that. I definitely see the strength in that concept, too. However, I do not, at this point, believe that science can provide the best explanation for everything-- maybe one day it will be able to and I'll have been fertilizer for several hundred years (that'll show me ;P )
However, at that point, the argument will not be "Science can't explain it, so God made it!" It'll be "Just because there's a scientific proof for it doesn't mean God didn't design it in such a way!" Which, although a kind of feeble claim in comparison, is still logical to a Christian. I mean, science has proven that there is a force called "gravity", rather than God just shoving us back to the earth when we jump-- that doesn't mean God didn't have a hand in it. Make sense? =/

I can't remember who originally expressed it, but I agree completely that if there is a God, surely he would be more pleased with intelligent questioning, then blind obedience and deliberate ignorance.

Most definitely, which is why I'm fascinated with philosophy and less-than-enthralled by sermons



edit: in case you're curious how the essay turned out, theism = naturalism in terms of the origin of the universe, but +1 to theism for design. This is after agreeing upon several premises (a couple of which I typed in bold in one of the replies in this thread)

[PaynESTER]

okay dude..the duct tape one..

right



god create us all so he loves us no matter what happens right.


so why would he send us to hell to burn and be tortured for eternity..that is not love.


say your kid grows up and ends up killing someone..


yeah you will be pissed off as hell and be like what did you do that son and whatever..

but you would still love him to death no matter ....


so that day when he gets the death penalty you would be sad as hell because he is being killed before your eyes because YOU CREATED HIM and he is yours. but that is out of your hands..

but its not outta gods.


also..

lucifer was the angel of light god created..


if god knows everything why did he create lucifer...

then the devil would have never existed.