Pros vs Cons - Training on an empty stomach

[Kyle.Lgk]

So lately I have been real keen on training on an empty stomach. I'll have a scoop of whey when I wake up, but that's it. My reasoning is this...
(I'm sure the IF/Warrior guys will be all for this)
************************************************** *********
*The body will work more efficiently when its not working to digest food

*I should have plenty of glycogen storage from the night before, so catabolism shouldn't be an issue

*Caffeine works better on an empty stomach so I require less of it for a boost

*BCAAs are more effective on an empty stomach, which makes them more useful intra-workout

*Between the scoop of whey when I wake up, and the BCAAs intraworkout, this should further reduce the chances of catabolism or cortisol increase

*I'll be more sensitive to the post-workout insulin spike when on an empty stomach

*A great method during a cut (less total calories at the end of the day)

*Kind of a method of Intermittent Fasting, which I believe does have some merit to it
************************************************
These are the pro's... what I'm asking in this thread is:
A. Is some of my logic flawed?
B. What are the cons to doing it this way?

[Nab0610]

I believe it has its place sometimes, when I've done it and taken a pre workout supplement with caffeine I'm more focused and alert. I've also noticed that I get tired quicker towards the end of my workout.

Its definitely something to experiment with though as it does have some pretty decent pros.

[paulpker121]

During the summer and in between sports to keep fit, I run first thing in the morning with just half a cup of water in my stomach to keep hydrated. Haven't had any problems, no cramps or anything, also makes me feel awake for the rest of the day.

[Kyle.Lgk]

I believe it has its place sometimes, when I've done it and taken a pre workout supplement with caffeine I'm more focused and alert. I've also noticed that I get tired quicker towards the end of my workout.

Its definitely something to experiment with though as it does have some pretty decent pros.

A few months ago I'da probably flamed this thread, but after doing some research into IF/Warrior diet I can see the merit it holds. While I dont plan on actually doing the 16hr fast/8hr eating phase... I stop eating around 10pm and don't have my next meal until around 12-4pm PWO, so that's 14-18hrs of fasting (except for a casein/milk shake + fish oil before bed and whey + fish oil upon waking). I like it so far.

[dollerbill]

Details on intermittent fasting or the warrior diet, as you call it?

[Robboe]

A few months ago I'da probably flamed this thread, but after doing some research into IF/Warrior diet I can see the merit it holds. While I dont plan on actually doing the 16hr fast/8hr eating phase... I stop eating around 10pm and don't have my next meal until around 12-4pm PWO, so that's 14-18hrs of fasting (except for a casein/milk shake + fish oil before bed and whey + fish oil upon waking). I like it so far.

Thats 14-18hrs of fasting apart from the two times you break the fast lol.

[The Solution]

I started training on an empty stomach a couple months ago, i will never go back to a pre-workout meal. My energy is 100x better, and my focus throughout my workout is on point. The numbers of PR's i have thrown up since then have been countless.. its really a hit or miss thing along with the IF/Warrior Diet.. Somethings click for some people, and some do not. For some reason it has stuck with me well.

[Kyle.Lgk]

Details on intermittent fasting or the warrior diet, as you call it?

Do a search for it, its very popular in the diet section of these forums

IF is basically 16hrs of undereating/fasting with 8hrs of overeating
Warrior diet tends to be more like 20hrs of undereating/fasting with 4hrs of overeating

The overeating phase usually takes place at the end of the day before bed.

Warrior diet seems to have more specific rules about the order you eat your foods (beginning with vegis, then proteins and fats, finish with carbs... while IF seems a little looser.

It seems like 9 out of 10 people who try it love it... but it is hit or miss.

Thats 14-18hrs of fasting apart from the two times you break the fast lol.

Thanks for pointing that out for me Robboe. I'm not willing to do a complete fast out of fear of muscle catabolism and cortisol increase. So I limit my intake to whey, fish oil and some Dextrose + BCAAs intraworkout during this period. After the gym I eat what I want until about 2 hrs before bed when I cut myself off from whole foods and have a shake - casein + milk + fish oil.

I started training on an empty stomach a couple months ago, i will never go back to a pre-workout meal. My energy is 100x better, and my focus throughout my workout is on point. The numbers of PR's i have thrown up since then have been countless.. its really a hit or miss thing along with the IF/Warrior Diet.. Somethings click for some people, and some do not. For some reason it has stuck with me well.

These are the types of responses that I constantly see in the IF/Warrior threads. There are very few negative responses from people who have actually tried it, and even though it goes against all the general rules and broscience of eating frequent meals to keep the metabolism stoked, this method actually has some merit.... some method to its madness.

A lot of the guys who are very cut and low BF% seem to do this form of dieting. However, for bodybuilding its probably not as optimal unless done on cycle during a cutting period. I'm not a bodybuilder, I'm a fighter and a model so this method seems cut for me.

[jeremyleinen]

I almost always train first thing in the morning, on an empty stomach. I really like it. I haven't seen any benefit to getting a preworkout meal in, so its not something I plan on changing.

[Nab0610]

theres a giant thread in the advanced nutrtion about intermittent fasting

there's also another big thread about the warrior diet, I can't remember if its in the nutrition forum or the advanced nutrition forum though.

[DouthitD]

So lately I have been real keen on training on an empty stomach. I'll have a scoop of whey when I wake up, but that's it. My reasoning is this...
(I'm sure the IF/Warrior guys will be all for this)
************************************************** *********
*The body will work more efficiently when its not working to digest food

*I should have plenty of glycogen storage from the night before, so catabolism shouldn't be an issue

*Caffeine works better on an empty stomach so I require less of it for a boost

*BCAAs are more effective on an empty stomach, which makes them more useful intra-workout

*Between the scoop of whey when I wake up, and the BCAAs intraworkout, this should further reduce the chances of catabolism or cortisol increase

*I'll be more sensitive to the post-workout insulin spike when on an empty stomach

*A great method during a cut (less total calories at the end of the day)

*Kind of a method of Intermittent Fasting, which I believe does have some merit to it
************************************************
These are the pro's... what I'm asking in this thread is:
A. Is some of my logic flawed?
B. What are the cons to doing it this way?

I do the same thing, but along with a little whey protein shake in the morning I eat 10 amonds then I hit the gym. I run 6 miles and then I take my pre-workout shake and other supplements. After that 30 mins before the pre-workout and supplements kick in, I hit the weights for about two hours and feel great through out the whole work out.

Once the work out is done 12pm, I get a whey shake with some fruit in it and some oat meal. Then eat every 2 hours after that and my last meal is around 9pm. I love the results and have stuck with this for about 3 months now.

[Kyle.Lgk]

I do the same thing, but along with a little whey protein shake in the morning I eat 10 amonds then I hit the gym. I run 6 miles and then I take my pre-workout shake and other supplements. After that 30 mins before the pre-workout and supplements kick in, I hit the weights for about two hours and feel great through out the whole work out.

Once the work out is done 12pm, I get a whey shake with some fruit in it and some oat meal. Then eat every 2 hours after that and my last meal is around 9pm. I love the results and have stuck with this for about 3 months now.

I have a whey shake in the AM as well (just minus the almonds).
So you run before you take the caffeine? Nice....
What's your preworkout shake, just like a caffeine supp? Any carbs/protein?

2 hours is way to long to hit the weights. If your intensity is where it should be, it should take no more then 75min of working sets to finish. That is, unless you do this only a few times a week and do multiple muscle groups?

[DouthitD]

I have a whey shake in the AM as well (just minus the almonds).
So you run before you take the caffeine? Nice....
What's your preworkout shake, just like a caffeine supp? Any carbs/protein?

2 hours is way to long to hit the weights. If your intensity is where it should be, it should take no more then 75min of working sets to finish. That is, unless you do this only a few times a week and do multiple muscle groups?

Prework out shake now is Shock Therapy with 10 grams of Glutamine and 5 grams of BCAAs added and then just a whey shake. I dont take the whey or the almonds in the morning anymore, I am curently on Animal Cuts so that jacks me up and gets me going.

Ya 2 hours in lifting is kind of a long time, especially doing it six days a week, but I don't work or do anything else so I take my time in the gym because it's the only time I really get out of my house. I'm currently waiting to be shipped to OK with Army so I'm just trying to get in the best shape of my life.

[Billton]

So lately I have been real keen on training on an empty stomach. I'll have a scoop of whey when I wake up, but that's it. My reasoning is this...
(I'm sure the IF/Warrior guys will be all for this)
************************************************** *********
*The body will work more efficiently when its not working to digest food

*I should have plenty of glycogen storage from the night before, so catabolism shouldn't be an issue

*Caffeine works better on an empty stomach so I require less of it for a boost

*BCAAs are more effective on an empty stomach, which makes them more useful intra-workout

*Between the scoop of whey when I wake up, and the BCAAs intraworkout, this should further reduce the chances of catabolism or cortisol increase

*I'll be more sensitive to the post-workout insulin spike when on an empty stomach

*A great method during a cut (less total calories at the end of the day)

*Kind of a method of Intermittent Fasting, which I believe does have some merit to it
************************************************
These are the pro's... what I'm asking in this thread is:
A. Is some of my logic flawed?
B. What are the cons to doing it this way?

It does have it's place, but some of your logic is flawed.

1. Your body is actually low on glycogen stores when you wake up.

2. During and after intense exercise your muscle cells are capable of increased nutrient uptake independent of insulin levels, so increased insulin sensitivity doesn't really matter.

Other than that I suppose you're within reason. I wouldn't consider a scoop of whey and an intra workout drink an empty stomach though. Working out in the morning, particularly cardio can be valuable on a cut because your blood sugar levels will be low and thus more fatty acids will be used for energy. By the same token, you will lose some intensity and your weights will probably go down on most lifts. That could hurt you a bit. My recommendation would be to do cardio on an empty stomach in the morning and do your weight training later in the day an hour or so after a small meal of complex carbs and slowly digesting protein.

[Billton]

Prework out shake now is Shock Therapy with 10 grams of Glutamine and 5 grams of BCAAs added and then just a whey shake. I dont take the whey or the almonds in the morning anymore, I am curently on Animal Cuts so that jacks me up and gets me going.

Ya 2 hours in lifting is kind of a long time, especially doing it six days a week, but I don't work or do anything else so I take my time in the gym because it's the only time I really get out of my house. I'm currently waiting to be shipped to OK with Army so I'm just trying to get in the best shape of my life.

You're actually hurting your gains by working out this long. I get the best gains when I keep my workouts between 45-75 minutes.

[Billton]

I started training on an empty stomach a couple months ago, i will never go back to a pre-workout meal. My energy is 100x better, and my focus throughout my workout is on point. The numbers of PR's i have thrown up since then have been countless.. its really a hit or miss thing along with the IF/Warrior Diet.. Somethings click for some people, and some do not. For some reason it has stuck with me well.

I don't have a pre-workout meal in the same sense that most people do, but I'm not exactly fasted either. I tend to two to three hours after a large meal, or, if I need to eat something, I try to have only a light snack an hour before I workout.

[Autobody]

Eur J Appl Physiol. 2010 Mar;108(4):791-800.
Increased p70s6k phosphorylation during intake of a protein-carbohydrate drink following resistance exercise in the fasted state.

The present study aimed at comparing the responses of myogenic regulatory factors and signaling pathways involved in muscle protein synthesis after a resistance training session performed in either the fasted or fed state. According to a randomized crossover study design, six young male subjects participated in two experimental sessions separated by 3 weeks. In each session, they performed a standardized resistance training. After the sessions, they received during a 4-h recovery period 6 ml/kg b.w. h of a solution containing carbohydrates (50 g/l), protein hydrolysate (33 g/l), and leucine (16.6 g/l). On one occasion, the resistance exercise session was performed after the intake of a carbohydrate-rich breakfast ( B ), whereas in the other session they remained fasted (F). Needle biopsies from m. vastus lateralis were obtained before (Rest), and 1 h (+1h) and 4 h (+4h) after exercise. Myogenin, MRF4, and MyoD1 mRNA contents were determined by RT-PCR. Phosphorylation of PKB (protein kinase B ), GSK3, p70(s6k) (p70 ribo****l S6 kinase), eIF2B, eEF2 (eukaryotic elongation factor 2), ERK1/2, and p38 was measured via western blotting. Compared with F, the pre-exercise phosphorylation states of PKB and p70(s6k) were higher in B, whereas those of eIF2B and eEF2 were lower. During recovery, the phosphorylation state of p70(s6k) was lower in B than in F (p = 0.02). There were no differences in basal mRNA contents between B and F. However, compared with F at +1h, MyoD1 and MRF4 mRNA contents were lower in B (p < 0.05). Our results indicate that prior fasting may stimulate the intramyocellular anabolic response to ingestion of a carbohydrate/protein/leucine mixture following a heavy resistance training session.

PMID: 20187284

good info and news for IF