Squat Plateau

[Chimpinzo]

Plateaued on squats, I spent yesterday learning how to front squat, and on my way out of the gym asked a personal trainer (who usually gives good advice) about what he'd do about a squat plateau. He recommended leg press (yes, I saw all the hate in the other thread on leg press)

What's the PL forum opinion? Front Squats / Leg Press / Box Squats / Other?
I'm currently using Rippetoe's routine, and would simply swap out ATG squats for the new exercise

[phoebusapollo]

well Rippetoe would recommend a reset- drop back, build up slow, ensure form is correct and add weight more slowly. Maybe buy some tiny, pathetic plates to add with- .5lb or whatever it takes to keep gaining.

I don't do Rippetoe, but i've found front squats are a great secondary exercise to nail the quad. I see leg press as less important, useful for rehab and for finishing up a big leg day.

I would recommend trying plyometrics in your warmup- jump squats. You'll look like a tool but it helped me heaps. Really improved the explosive power.

google rippetoe q&a and you might find another commercial site not naming any names here where he does squat form checks and answers questions- do a vid and see what he thinks. Or just post it here and start a sh*tstorm about knee angle and depth.

[GoJu]

if you've plateued on rippetoes, set the weights back 20-40lbs and build up again.

[Chimpinzo]

well Rippetoe would recommend a reset- drop back, build up slow, ensure form is correct and add weight more slowly. Maybe buy some tiny, pathetic plates to add with- .5lb or whatever it takes to keep gaining.

I don't do Rippetoe, but i've found front squats are a great secondary exercise to nail the quad. I see leg press as less important, useful for rehab and for finishing up a big leg day.

I would recommend trying plyometrics in your warmup- jump squats. You'll look like a tool but it helped me heaps. Really improved the explosive power.

google rippetoe q&a and you might find another commercial site not naming any names here where he does squat form checks and answers questions- do a vid and see what he thinks. Or just post it here and start a sh*tstorm about knee angle and depth.

Haha... I'll try to get my friend to video it for me. No one can bitch about my depth. I pwn atgs :P. Nonetheless always wanted some critiquing. Thanks / repped

I tried a reset by 20lbs, and built it back up for a month, and ended up exactly where I used to be T_T.

[jedidiah]

I started on rippetoes and had a similar thing happen. Stalled on squats at 275 3x5. What fixed it for me was more volume. 3x5 wasn't enough to progress anymore, and I thought reaching 275 on that program was satisfactory. You could try 5x5, or some other program with more leg volume. It may be just what you need. This is assuming you're bulking and eating enough. Good luck.

[Lager1]

Plateaued on squats, I spent yesterday learning how to front squat, and on my way out of the gym asked a personal trainer (who usually gives good advice) about what he'd do about a squat plateau. He recommended leg press (yes, I saw all the hate in the other thread on leg press)

What's the PL forum opinion? Front Squats / Leg Press / Box Squats / Other?
I'm currently using Rippetoe's routine, and would simply swap out ATG squats for the new exercise

Do some light leg presses for the next week, and then see how your squat feels.

[phoebusapollo]

Haha... I'll try to get my friend to video it for me. No one can bitch about my depth. I pwn atgs :P. Nonetheless always wanted some critiquing.

I tried a reset by 20lbs, and built it back up for a month, and ended up exactly where I used to be T_T.

Reset back 40lbs then, and increase in quarter increments. Get an extra half hours sleep (written at 3:36AM local time lol).

And if you end up communicating with Rippetoe, depth ain't everything. The man is anal retentive about technique. He'll find a "butt wink" or something to whinge about, and it might help.

Then he'll demand you suckle an entire herd of cows, stop using gloves and eat four times your body weight a day. And he'll bitch at you for an hour about not buying his book and reading it properly the first time. If he wasn't so respected he'd be telling kids to stay off his lawn!

Oh and I obviously assumed you were squatting in a rack so you can go all out to failure. If not, time for a new gym.

One more thing- sounds a bit limpwristed but compression gear (not powerlifting stuff, but just skins etc.) can help a bit. Probably all in my head but when there is compression on quads and hammies you can kind of feel how they work a bit better, and definitely helps the DOMS.

Thanks / repped

cheers. returned. gl.

[Chimpinzo]

I started on rippetoes and had a similar thing happen. Stalled on squats at 275 3x5. What fixed it for me was more volume. 3x5 wasn't enough to progress anymore, and I thought reaching 275 on that program was satisfactory. You could try 5x5, or some other program with more leg volume. It may be just what you need. This is assuming you're bulking and eating enough. Good luck.

Heh, I've considered switching to the 5x5, but my other lifts seem fine in rippetoe's... I was thinking of keeping all my progressing lifts at 3x5, and bumping stalled lifts to 5x5 xD. Thoughts?

Do some light leg presses for the next week, and then see how your squat feels.

This is my current plan (changing as the thread changes)

Reset back 40lbs then, and increase in quarter increments. Get an extra half hours sleep (written at 3:36AM local time lol).

And if you end up communicating with Rippetoe, depth ain't everything. The man is anal retentive about technique. He'll find a "butt wink" or something to whinge about, and it might help.

Then he'll demand you suckle an entire herd of cows, stop using gloves and eat four times your body weight a day. And he'll bitch at you for an hour about not buying his book and reading it properly the first time. If he wasn't so respected he'd be telling kids to stay off his lawn!

Oh and I obviously assumed you were squatting in a rack so you can go all out to failure. If not, time for a new gym.

One more thing- sounds a bit limpwristed but compression gear (not powerlifting stuff, but just skins etc.) can help a bit. Probably all in my head but when there is compression on quads and hammies you can kind of feel how they work a bit better, and definitely helps the DOMS.
cheers. returned. gl.

Heh, I'm getting a flat 8 hours of sleep a day (I'm crazy about bedtimes and stuff for recovery).
You've scared me from posting to rippetoe xD, I believe I'll have a vid up here within the next week or so for some criticism. Until then. Thanks everyone

[jedidiah]

Heh, I've considered switching to the 5x5, but my other lifts seem fine in rippetoe's... I was thinking of keeping all my progressing lifts at 3x5, and bumping stalled lifts to 5x5 xD. Thoughts?

I've read of other people doing this with success (check the thread on starting strenght in Workout Programs); it's definitely a viable option. I think once you've reached a strength base with starting strength, it's very difficult to add weight every workout, and becomes weekly additions (if you can even maintain that). So I favor programs with weekly progression at this point, rather than constantly resetting with lighter weights. That said, you could keep banging away with rippetoes and probably make progress since you're at 225 now. But you may make better progress on a 5x5 routine with a weekly progression. So if you suspect it's the program that's limiting you, then switch. The extra volume certainly won't hurt you at this point.

[Norse1308]

I've heard great thing about the box... and steroids.

[swolegantor]

Why are your squats failing? Without sounding too much like a geek i would assume your not fully engaging your posterior chain+your torso is probably a ****s hair from collapsing under its own weight.

What is your squat style

low bar or highbar
foot width
knee break or hip break

[Kion]

It's probably not the best way to train but I'm slowly bring up my squats by doing something like 230/235/240, 235/235/240 235/240/240 each time that I squat. I set a goal of hitting 240 a couple of weeks back and hit it for three sets. I dialed it back down to 225 but did 225/230/235, etc and just recently did 235/240/245. I'm shooting for 250 for three sets and then I'll dial it back to probably 235 and work to 260 etc.

Edit-Another thing that has helped me is finding out what my weakness is in squatting. Mine is short hamstrings and a lack of explosive power coming out of the hole. I added leg presses and leg curls and I really think that this has helped me. I squat twice a week right now but on one of the days I do a 3*5 leg press and 3*5 leg curl.

[Chimpinzo]

Why are your squats failing? Without sounding too much like a geek i would assume your not fully engaging your posterior chain+your torso is probably a ****s hair from collapsing under its own weight.

What is your squat style

low bar or highbar
foot width
knee break or hip break

Sorry, semi new to squatting and very new to the PL community. Squat style? Mind clarifying what all of those are for a beginner? xD

I stand with feet probably 0-3 inches wider than shoulder width apart, controlled decline to ATG, push out of the hole back up to standing, restart. 5 reps, 3 sets

-But for the record, I never said I was failing on my squats, though I do fail from fatigue sometimes on my 3rd set.


- i would assume your not fully engaging your posterior chain+your torso is probably a ****s hair from collapsing under its own weight.
Mind layman terming this for me ? -Tense your back more b/c I might snap in half is what I got out of it... haha
Thanks

I'll try to get a vid up tomorrow if I can

[weightWombat]

Try the leg presses, just don't tell anyone here about it!

I love doing squats, and I've always done legpress. I'd probably have dropped leg press if I didn't feel it did something.

[swolegantor]

Sorry, semi new to squatting and very new to the PL community. Squat style? Mind clarifying what all of those are for a beginner? xD

I stand with feet probably 0-3 inches wider than shoulder width apart, controlled decline to ATG, push out of the hole back up to standing, restart. 5 reps, 3 sets

-But for the record, I never said I was failing on my squats, though I do fail from fatigue sometimes on my 3rd set.


- i would assume your not fully engaging your posterior chain+your torso is probably a ****s hair from collapsing under its own weight.
Mind layman terming this for me ? -Tense your back more b/c I might snap in half is what I got out of it... haha
Thanks

I'll try to get a vid up tomorrow if I can

Your posterior chain is basically your Hams+Glutes+Lower back. Its pretty common for begginers to not really know how to use it properly and rely more-so on the quads. The core comment was about how begginers also have relatively weak trunk stability. The legs are a ridicoulously powerful muscle group, in alot of cases the weak link in a big squat is the rest of the bodies ability to hold the weight so that they can do the job they are supposed too.

On that note your knees are probably buckling inwards abit as well (again assumed).


as far as low and high bar.

its just whether you shelf ontop of the traps, or lower down on the back, the latter allows more use of the Postierior chain and inevietably more weight.

as far as knee break or hip break. same kinda deal breaking at the hips means they are the first thing too move.


This doesent really help you much though. So ill try to give you some sound advice to make up for it-

Squat as MUCH as possible. This doesent mean during workouts, but all the time. Get off your chair right now and just sit into a deep squat, put the weight on your heels get your self upright and just sit there, you should make it your goal to be as comfortable as possible in this position.

[GoJu]

Sorry, semi new to squatting and very new to the PL community. Squat style? Mind clarifying what all of those are for a beginner? xD

I stand with feet probably 0-3 inches wider than shoulder width apart, controlled decline to ATG, push out of the hole back up to standing, restart. 5 reps, 3 sets

-But for the record, I never said I was failing on my squats, though I do fail from fatigue sometimes on my 3rd set.


- i would assume your not fully engaging your posterior chain+your torso is probably a ****s hair from collapsing under its own weight.
Mind layman terming this for me ? -Tense your back more b/c I might snap in half is what I got out of it... haha
Thanks

I'll try to get a vid up tomorrow if I can

there are a number of ways to squat but usually the dominant 2 styles are:

PL - low bar placement, semi-wide to wide stance, decent by breaking at the hips, parallel or a bit below deph

OL - high bar placement (though some people use low bar), shoulder-width stance or a bit wider, decent by bending the knees, below parallel deph

he's also asking you if you keep your upper back tight against the bar or do you simply hold it there, also do you keep your core as well as hams/glutes tight during the whole of the movement; he also wants to know if you're bending over at the bottom position.

since you're asking what he means I'm going to assume no (we were all new once so don't worry about it)

what weight are you doing with your squat now, if it's below 300lbs there's no reason to change exercises or whatever, you might want to fix your form though as that will allow you to employ more force on the bar and thus lift heavier.

[Chimpinzo]

to: swolegantor
I actually believe I do use the posterior chain to help stabilize my trunk (we'll see soon enough on the video, won't we). Hip Break, and support the bar on my lower back. (as far as I know, we'll know soon) I watched ENDLESS videos and read tons of threads on lifting (and lurked this forum)

I have a camera built into this computer and could do some basic squats in my backyard, but would that help (110lbs roughly)? or no help unless it's the full load?

there are a number of ways to squat but usually the dominant 2 styles are:

PL - low bar placement, semi-wide to wide stance, decent by breaking at the hips, parallel or a bit below depth

OL - high bar placement (though some people use low bar), shoulder-width stance or a bit wider, decent by bending the knees, below parallel deph

he's also asking you if you keep your upper back tight against the bar or do you simply hold it there, also do you keep your core as well as hams/glutes tight during the whole of the movement; he also wants to know if you're bending over at the bottom position.

since you're asking what he means I'm going to assume no (we were all new once so don't worry about it)

what weight are you doing with your squat now, if it's below 300lbs there's no reason to change exercises or whatever, you might want to fix your form though as that will allow you to employ more force on the bar and thus lift heavier.

From the descriptions, I do a PL squat, but have a more narrow stance (depending on how wide we're talking) and drop considerably below parallel

I'm squatting 225 for reps, haven't tried much past it because more weight destroys my form and would assumedly drop my reps below 5 which seems absurd to me.


It's not so much a lack of stability (i THINK), but a lack of strength gains in my legs. I'm slowly gaining weight which I assumed would help break my squat plateau (225lbs 3x5), but I'm up about 3lbs and 1 month in, but still on the same lift (other lifts are up, just squats haven't increased)

[Frankdaddy]

to: swolegantor
I actually believe I do use the posterior chain to help stabilize my trunk (we'll see soon enough on the video, won't we). Hip Break, and support the bar on my lower back. (as far as I know, we'll know soon) I watched ENDLESS videos and read tons of threads on lifting (and lurked this forum)

I have a camera built into this computer and could do some basic squats in my backyard, but would that help (110lbs roughly)? or no help unless it's the full load?



From the descriptions, I do a PL squat, but have a more narrow stance (depending on how wide we're talking) and drop considerably below parallel

I'm squatting 225 for reps, haven't tried much past it because more weight destroys my form and would assumedly drop my reps below 5 which seems absurd to me.


It's not so much a lack of stability (i THINK), but a lack of strength gains in my legs. I'm slowly gaining weight which I assumed would help break my squat plateau (225lbs 3x5), but I'm up about 3lbs and 1 month in, but still on the same lift (other lifts are up, just squats haven't increased)

I would drop back down to 185 for a couple of sets of 5, build up 5 pounds each week. Make the negatives very slow, very controlled, and use explosive power going up. This will make it heavier than normal but still light enough to get for you if you can do 225. Just because your feeling good doesnt mean throw a 10 on their each week. Make it feel good by adding another 5 lbs only. People tend to jump up way to quickly because they "feel good" that day. If you cant improve the weight by the next workout, dont move up. Thats the way I feel when I lift.

[GoJu]

I would drop back down to 185 for a couple of sets of 5, build up 5 pounds each week. Make the negatives very slow, very controlled, and use explosive power going up. This will make it heavier than normal but still light enough to get for you if you can do 225. Just because your feeling good doesnt mean throw a 10 on their each week. Make it feel good by adding another 5 lbs only. People tend to jump up way to quickly because they "feel good" that day. If you cant improve the weight by the next workout, dont move up. Thats the way I feel when I lift.

rippetoes calls for 3x5r 3x a week, it's supposed to start with 10lb jumps every workout but it will get to 5-2.5 jumps when it gets heavy.

[swolegantor]

to: swolegantor
I actually believe I do use the posterior chain to help stabilize my trunk (we'll see soon enough on the video, won't we). Hip Break, and support the bar on my lower back. (as far as I know, we'll know soon) I watched ENDLESS videos and read tons of threads on lifting

obviously not enough videos because you "use the posterior chain to stabilize your trunk"

[SoaringSwine]

In a PL style squat the posterior chain does most of the work, not just stabilising.

[cjdelaney]

if you are doing SS, why not reset as prescribed by the author? Seems pretty simple to me. You should spit in that PT's face next time you see him.

[crupiea]

I had the same problem on Rippetoes. Thats the indicator it was time to invest some money in Practical Programming.

Gaining workout to workout is considered a novice no matter how long you have been lifting. After a while that just wont work anymore and you need to move to the intermediate stage where you will gain week over week.

I started that and the gains came right away. I have been doing the intermediate phase for months with steady progress every week. This was after stalling in the novice phase like you are doing now.

[Chimpinzo]

obviously not enough videos because you "use the posterior chain to stabilize your trunk"

Sorry, in the beginning of this thread I was asking what the posterior chain even was if you missed that bit. I'm not quite sure what you mean, but nonetheless. The vid will hopefully clarify everything.

In a PL style squat the posterior chain does most of the work, not just stabilising.

I didn't intend to follow a PL style squat, as until midway through this thread I didn't know how they were correctly preformed, but when the video's up, criticism will be welcomed and requested

I had the same problem on Rippetoes. Thats the indicator it was time to invest some money in Practical Programming.

Gaining workout to workout is considered a novice no matter how long you have been lifting. After a while that just wont work anymore and you need to move to the intermediate stage where you will gain week over week.

I started that and the gains came right away. I have been doing the intermediate phase for months with steady progress every week. This was after stalling in the novice phase like you are doing now.

Thank you very much/repped Crupiea

But I haven't read Starting Strength o_O. I got the workout routine from something posted on bb.com and couldn't find a routine from Practical Programming


-Video will be friday. Friend couldn't find his camera. If he can't find it by then, I'll just drag my laptop along to film it

[cjdelaney]

I actually haven't read Starting Strength even o_O. I got the workout routine from something posted on bb.com and couldn't find one for Practical Programming

as a rule, YOU SHOULD ACTUALLY UNDERSTAND A ROUTINE BEFORE YOU START DOING IT. You could spend a few bucks and get the books and answer these questions for yourself or you could rely on some stupid PT or some internet strangers for the rest of your life.

How are your other lifts progressing on SS?

reset the weights and work back up again. changing lifts is not the answer. If you reset and you stall at the same point again and you really think you have milked SS for all it is worth then the next step would be to get on an intermediate routine.

You sound like you dont know anything about lifting imo, you should like...read...and ****. (advice...no flame)

[Chimpinzo]

as a rule, YOU SHOULD ACTUALLY UNDERSTAND A ROUTINE BEFORE YOU START DOING IT. You could spend a few bucks and get the books and answer these questions for yourself or you could rely on some stupid PT or some internet strangers for the rest of your life.

How are your other lifts progressing on SS?

reset the weights and work back up again. changing lifts is not the answer. If you reset and you stall at the same point again and you really think you have milked SS for all it is worth then the next step would be to get on an intermediate routine.

You sound like you dont know anything about lifting imo, you should like...read...and ****. (advice...no flame)

While this post does look quite flamey to me... Lots of the PL section's like this, so I really didn't expect any different. No offense taken, and I am looking into snagging these books (had no clue they were books when I started, I assumed they were simply routines passed around online, therefore never looked into purchasing them)

My other lifts are moving along, but slowing down, no weekly weight increases that's for sure. Deadlifts have still been increasing, weight on dips/pullups have also increased, as has my bench.

In response to your last bit, I have been reading across the forums for the past few months, and have posted a fair share of stupid threads such as this one in an attempt to clarify and accumulate information. Everyone must start at some point, I just chose to post in the PL section as the people here seem far more knowledgeable and flaming prone.

[cjdelaney]

While this post does look quite flamey to me... Lots of the PL section's like this, so I really didn't expect any different. No offense taken, and I am looking into snagging these books

My other lifts are moving along, but slowing down, no weekly weight increases that's for sure. Deadlifts have still been increasing, weight on dips/pullups have also increased, as has my bench.

In response to your last bit, I have been reading across the forums for the past few months, and have posted a fair share of stupid threads such as this one in an attempt to clarify and accumulate information. Everyone must start at some point, I just chose to post in the PL section as the people here seem far more knowledgeable and flaming prone.

I wasnt flaming you.

you will get better help here than in any other section. BBers are idiots.

It is clear that you dont really understand how the progression works on SS. If you are not making gains weekly than you probably have outgrown SS. You are supposed to gain WORKOUT TO WORKOUT on SS.

How often do you add weight to the bar/how much?

Think of how much time/effort you put into lifting weights...you would get alot more out of it if you took the time to read and understand what you are doing.

[Chimpinzo]

I wasnt flaming you.

you will get better help here than in any other section. BBers are idiots.

It is clear that you dont really understand how the progression works on SS. If you are not making gains weekly than you probably have outgrown SS. You are supposed to gain WORKOUT TO WORKOUT on SS.

How often do you add weight to the bar/how much?

Think of how much time/effort you put into lifting weights...you would get alot more out of it if you took the time to read and understand what you are doing.

That's why I came here . I'd rather catch flame and claim to know nothing than attempt to assert what I know and learn less.

I don't add weight by set timeframes (I used to when I started "starting strength"), but when I wasn't able to progress at a set rate, I started adding weight only when I felt I was able to complete the exercise with leftover energy/potential. Then I would add 10lbs (on major lifts) and continue the usual 3x5

Your last point - true, but just never really thought about it. I'm a big reader and hopefully will be able to snag and read through both Starting Strength and Practical Programming within the next few weeks and get a better grasp on all of this material

[Chimpinzo]

Ok, squat video's up on youtube for uploading purposes. Will embed here momentarily.

I preformed a set of 45's for a warmup, then a set of 45/35/5 to show what my form looks like with actual weight on it.

I was a little hasty on the negative which I've noticed from this video, but am not normally that quick to drop, just a little hasty /w the camera. Nontheless, criticism is welcomed and encouraged. Shoot away

[cjdelaney]

That's why I came here . I'd rather catch flame and claim to know nothing than attempt to assert what I know and learn less.

I don't add weight by set timeframes (I used to when I started "starting strength"), but when I wasn't able to progress at a set rate, I started adding weight only when I felt I was able to complete the exercise with leftover energy/potential. Then I would add 10lbs (on major lifts) and continue the usual 3x5

Your last point - true, but just never really thought about it. I'm a big reader and hopefully will be able to snag and read through both Starting Strength and Practical Programming within the next few weeks and get a better grasp on all of this material

my point was that sooner or later SS isnt going to work for you anymore. If you are no longer adding weight each workout, or even each week for that matter, chances are you should have switched to an intermediate routine a while ago. check out starrs intermediate 5x5. this will do you 100x more good than just swapping out lifts. sticking with a novice routine when you are no longer a novice makes as little sense as going with an advanced routine as a complete noob. If you have milked SS for all it is worth... cut the chord, move on.

google "intermediate 5x5"