Why so much BS in my ACE manual

[b~rad]

I'm studying to be an ACE personal trainer right now. I'm almost half way through the book, and I've come across many "facts" that completely goes against what I've learned in my experience and on bb.com. Here are just a few.

1.Any more the 1g of protein per kg of bodyweight is overkill and is harmful. 1g/kg weight is optimal for an anabolic state.

2. DONT use protein supps. They are all incomplete and will hurt your gains.

3.SQUATTING- glutes should never go below knees. knees should never go in front of toes.

There are more, but thats all I have for now.

DISCUSS

[HitItHard]

exactly why the ACE certification is bull****

[Sikk]

exactly why the ACE certification is bull****

every cert has theories that some consider "left field"

imo ACE is the perfect starter cert. If someone is interested in the field, its a great cert to start out with and take a good chunk of the info over to the NSCA for a higher grade cert.

but yea, gotta answer the question on the test how they want it answered. Sucks but thats how it is.

[Torrtrefireto]

Only thing they say that matches NSCA is knees over toes, but thats common knowledge. Every certification will have stuff you don't agree with. NSCA recomends 1/4th squats for someone recovering from knee surgury but I would never do it

[b~rad]

Only thing they say that matches NSCA is knees over toes, but thats common knowledge. Every certification will have stuff you don't agree with. NSCA recomends 1/4th squats for someone recovering from knee surgury but I would never do it

OL front squats? guarantee your knees will go a bit beyond your toes. I had a torn mcl last year and have been doing these a lot. My knees are stronger than ever.

[HitItHard]

Only thing they say that matches NSCA is knees over toes, but thats common knowledge. Every certification will have stuff you don't agree with. NSCA recomends 1/4th squats for someone recovering from knee surgury but I would never do it

correct me if im wrong but i dont think the NSCA is a "no knees over toes" kinda group. I dont recall reading anything about it in the textbooks etc (yes cscs)

[Environ]

correct me if im wrong but i dont think the NSCA is a "no knees over toes" kinda group. I dont recall reading anything about it in the textbooks etc (yes cscs)

x2. I never read that in their book and I only did the CSCS last December.

ACE needs to modernise their thinking. The last 10 years has seen huge progressions in the fields of exercise science, nutrition, supplementation, biomechanics, kinesiology, and even sports psychology.

My starter cert was the ISSA's CFT. I loved that cert. They had a whole section on all the different types of squats and the pros and cons of them all. I suppose that is because Dr. Fred Hatfield (aka Dr. Squat) is the President of ISSA and people like Tom Platz are presenters at their seminars. You get a lot of grass roots people in the ISSA who have learned most of what they know through experience.

As for 1/4 range squats, there ARE situations where they may be necessary for a short time. A good example is rehab immediately after surgery to repair a torn ACL or even Achilles Tendon. At first the client will not have anywhere near full range of motion. But, ultimately, you should strive to get the client back to full ROM as soon as possible. I have trained two people with torn ACL's (complete tears). I got them to do ATG squats as soon as possible into rehab. They're both full fit again.

A certification provides you with certain knowledge. The truth is that you should never take one cert or organisation's material as gospel. You have to analyse all the information out there and make informed decisions and choices based on what you've learned, what seems right to you and, even pure gut instinct. For example, I'm also an Engineer. Much of what I learned in Engineering benefits me now. Leverage, moments of force, torque, power output. These are all standard in engineering and understanding them really helps me 'analyse' my clients' movements. Finally, try everything before you prescribe it to a client.

[CM82682]

I'm studying to be an ACE personal trainer right now. I'm almost half way through the book, and I've come across many "facts" that completely goes against what I've learned in my experience and on bb.com. Here are just a few.

1.Any more the 1g of protein per kg of bodyweight is overkill and is harmful. 1g/kg weight is optimal for an anabolic state.

2. DONT use protein supps. They are all incomplete and will hurt your gains.

3.SQUATTING- glutes should never go below knees. knees should never go in front of toes.

There are more, but thats all I have for now.

DISCUSS

I feel your pain. I am ACE certified and while reading and studying I had to literally memorize things that I know are wrong in order to pass the test. Just realize this, do what you need to do to become certified and then go back to what you know and believe is right after the fact, its what I had to do.

[ny58]

yeah ace does need to get more "modern". . .it sucks but i guess like the above poster said memorize pass ur test (get ur cert) than forget it. .

[Al Shades]

every cert has theories that some consider "left field"

You've got it completely backwards.

Every single bit of advice on this website and others like it is considered "left field" by the mainstream medical establishment.

I am very surprised at the level of naivety on this forum.

You people seem to be under the impression that doctors and med organizations are on "our side" and that "we're all in this together".

The reality is, the medical establishment condones neither bodybuilding or the fitness lifestyle. The government is still using 1950's standards of fitness. Jumping jacks, running, and pushups, basically. Those are considered "orthodox" standards. Anything more advanced than that is "left field".

The government is not your friend.
The AMA/AHA/FDA/ISSA/ACE/ACSM/NASM are not your friends.

We are not in this together.

They are groups and individuals out to make a profit. They don't care about you. They don't care about advancing the cause of fitness or health. They are bureaucrats.

Every time I have to deal with some organization such as a certifying body, I know that I'm going to be holding my nose and swallowing spoonfuls of their crap. It's like letting a cop lecture you about fixing your tail light. You don't want to hear it, but you listen anyways because the consequences of pissing him off are severe.

That is the proper attitude to take when dealing with the government.

The establishment is nearly always wrong about everything. Check the sig.

[Sikk]

You've got it completely backwards.

Every single bit of advice on this website and others like it is considered "left field" by the mainstream medical establishment.

I am very surprised at the level of naivety on this forum.

You people seem to be under the impression that doctors and med organizations are on "our side" and that "we're all in this together".

The reality is, the medical establishment condones neither bodybuilding or the fitness lifestyle. The government is still using 1950's standards of fitness. Jumping jacks, running, and pushups, basically. Those are considered "orthodox" standards. Anything more advanced than that is "left field".

The government is not your friend.
The AMA/AHA/FDA/ISSA/ACE/ACSM/NASM are not your friends.

We are not in this together.

They are groups and individuals out to make a profit. They don't care about you. They don't care about advancing the cause of fitness or health. They are bureaucrats.

Every time I have to deal with some organization such as a certifying body, I know that I'm going to be holding my nose and swallowing spoonfuls of their crap. It's like letting a cop lecture you about fixing your tail light. You don't want to hear it, but you listen anyways because the consequences of pissing him off are severe.

That is the proper attitude to take when dealing with the government.

The establishment is nearly always wrong about everything. Check the sig.

Where the **** did I say anything about the government and their standards of health?

Not using protein supplements isn't left field?
Squatting above parallel is not left field?

Where did I say any cert was our friend? Sure some of it can be seemed as bull**** to some, but there is still a ton of good info in the study material for any personal training cert.

Don't use my comment about ACE as a means for you to spread the same bull**** that you spread on other forums on this board that brought you red for life.

You keep preaching that a woman's place is on her back buddy and that my diet should be 300g protein, 100g carbs and 200g saturated fat.

yea, you REALLY know what you are talking about.

Don't ever quote me again and try to interpret what I am saying. Just sit back, read it, try to understand it and learn from it. That is, if you can do that without raging about the government.

[Al Shades]

Where the **** did I say anything about the government and their standards of health?

You commented on the certifying organizations. You fail to realize that they work hand-in-hand with the "official" government bodies like the FDA. This means they are largely going to tow the establishment line and won't rock the boat with any advanced theories. You won't find anything you read online in one of the certification manuals.

Not using protein supplements isn't left field?

Not using protein supplements isn't left field, correct. To this day, at least 9/10 doctors will tell you that common bodybuilding supplements will damage your liver or kidneys. What's been common in the bodybuilding community for decades is still considered cutting edge to 95% of the medical community. That is the main reason behind the quote in my sig.

Squatting above parallel is not left field?

Correct. To this day, any "mainstream" trainer is going to tell you that full squats are bad for the knee's.

You keep preaching that a woman's place is on her back buddy and that my diet should be 300g protein, 100g carbs and 200g saturated fat.

yea, you REALLY know what you are talking about.

You bet I do.

Saturated fat is good for your health, carbs are bad. And a woman's place is in the kitchen or lying on her back.

[Sikk]

you are ****ing retarded

[mondo223]

AL Shades

I work for the ISSA and ISSA does not work hand in hand with any government organization.

In fact, there is NO government regulation at all on personal training certifications.

Even the much touted NCCA accreditation is completely worthless to the industry and only accredits the testing procedures, not the actual course content.

Check your facts before you go spouting off.

[Jack_the_Repper]

I just took the ACE exam about a week ago. Throughout reading the manual and study guides i did find some odd things. But in all reality the statements about protein and not squatting past parallel are actually taught in most of my exercise science classes (kinesiology, biomechanics, nutrition for exercise and sport... etc.)

And you definitely cant believe everything you read on bodybuilding.com, its a great site with a lot of good information but the statements in ACE and what is taught in school are backed with scientific studies, not the average joe that lifts some weights and posts in an online thread.

I would say that ACE states a lot of these things to prevent injury while training or anything that would, or they think would, be harmful to a clients health. They're just trying to cover their ass.

The most of what I've learned about lifting though is through talking to people at the gym and shadowing other trainers, and most of all... trial and error.

[Environ]

I just took the ACE exam about a week ago. Throughout reading the manual and study guides i did find some odd things. But in all reality the statements about protein and not squatting past parallel are actually taught in most of my exercise science classes (kinesiology, biomechanics, nutrition for exercise and sport... etc.)

And you definitely cant believe everything you read on bodybuilding.com, its a great site with a lot of good information but the statements in ACE and what is taught in school are backed with scientific studies, not the average joe that lifts some weights and posts in an online thread.

I would say that ACE states a lot of these things to prevent injury while training or anything that would, or they think would, be harmful to a clients health. They're just trying to cover their ass.

The most of what I've learned about lifting though is through talking to people at the gym and shadowing other trainers, and most of all... trial and error.

I can't resolve the issue ACE have about squatting past parallel. Olympic weightlifters, who squat past parallel all the time, have the fewest ACL and other knee injuries than almost any other athlete. Powerlifters, on the other hand, who squat to parallel, regularly rupture tendons and ligaments and tear muscles.

Also, when was it decided that we should not squat below parallel? Ever look at babies and the number of times they squat really deep without even knowing it? (they just drop to the ground mid-stride).

I attended a lecture by Charles Poliquin a few years ago, where he gave us the history of the 'squat only to parallel' theory. Some guy was studying for a phd and this was his topic. After he got his phd, it was discovered that he had made up most of the results and, as far as I recall, hadn't even done all the testing he was supposed to do. His phd was revoked. And, if you look at every single analysis of squatting technique (most of which start with a literature review) in the period up to about 10 years ago, they are all based on his revoked phd.

It's only in the last 10 years that modern pioneers of fitness and health have started to challenge these old-school thoughts and opinions - and they are backing up all of their 'claims' with science.

Finally, I used to do parallel squats for much the same reason as everybody else - I read about it. When I decided to learn Olympic weightlifting, they got me to squat deep. Since then, I have never had knee pain, whereas, when I squatted to parallel, I did.

[tinyhulk]

Do they back it up?
I'm studying with NCSF and everything they state as fact has a reference to a study or article published in a medical journal.Some are older but i haven't ran into anything really controversial yet.

Just to add training isn't an exact science. In math 2+2 will always equal 4 but in training there are to many veritables to take into effect.

[nickmanzoni]

For the life of me:

why would someone willingly stop squatting at the greatest point of mechanical disadvantage for their kneecap (90 degrees)?

I knew that was wrong since the first day of biology class in highschool.

Secondly: as far as protein goes. A big chunk of your body (water) does not need protein in order to fufill it's duties. SO why would I factor in g/lb if alot of me is water? Am I making "hard water"? That's only one instance, there are several more. Fat for one.... tell me fat needs protein to function..... oh wait.


As far as protein supps go... it's kind of hard to regulate SUPPLEMENTS. Vitamins still don't have it right, so what do you think of a rapidly expanding market with so many gimicks out there you could get lost for days reading pure labels on products and still not know what you're looking at.


It seems to me your book is a tick outdated. I don't care what edition it is.... it's outdated.

[Reps n Sets]

you should call them out on it.

seriously.. call them up and settle this. I, as would everyone in this forum, would like to see it.

[MVP]

This has been beaten to death, and it gets constantly repeated.

Having an ACE certification will land you any PT position at any gym. This is all a cert does, is land you a position, giving you a chance to be successful. Many think just because they have a certain cert, they are automatically better than everyone else

Funny

[ScrappyDew]

I have a bad knee. (No cartlidge in the left knee...just scar tissue)

I have to say that anything beyond parallel really does bother my knee. Not just at that time, but for quite a while afterwards. For someone with a preexisting condition, why add to it ?

I can understand the desire to do deep squats if it pertains to your (or your client's) life in some way (competing, or if the movement mimics your job function ), but your average person doesn't benefit much more from it,IMO. Most people will only go as deep as their desk chair or couch goes in normal life. Training should be practical in the sense of helping the client either improve their quality of life as is is, or in the sense of helping them reach their particular goal. If that goal involves a movement that deep squats pertains to, go for it.

Thoughts ?

[jdmalm123]

1.Any more the 1g of protein per kg of bodyweight is overkill and is potentially harmful to the general population as the risk of overworking the kidneys outweighs the benefits of over-consuming protein.

2. DONT use protein supps exclusively as a protein source. They are all incomplete and will not supply all the nutrients you need, whole foods are always a better choice for essential macronutrients

3.SQUATTING- glutes should never go below knees. knees should never go in front of toes unless the trainee has been certified to be injury free, flexible enough and capable of maintaining proper form under load.

Fixed.

Better?

[FresnoBeeDude]

I. too am studying ACE. I assume I have the recent edition (3rd edition, copyright 2003). The problems I am having in the Nutrition section (besides the protein 12-15% a day or 50-70g) is that in the amino acids supplements part, ACE is siting a 1991 report saying thatarginine and lysine may interfere with the absorption of essential amino acids. I would have to think that in the 12 years that passed (1991-2003) changes have been made in these supplements, or findings. It's as almost saying that you shouldn't take Tylenol because you can die.

Same page (page 129), there is a table that shows Protein in Common Foods. One item listed is 2 slices of pizza (32g). Though this *maybe* correct (pizzahut.com lists 2 large slices of cheese pizza - healthiest item that would have 32g of protein - would have 780 calories, 1600mg of sodium, 58g of fat!) There is no way in HELL I would recommend someone getting their protein via pizza. I will for the test, however. Maybe I am using bias, as I have been self-taught when it comes to nutrition over the apst 2 years. The following page has a Fat Substitions Table. You can recommend exchanging whole milk for skim milk. DUH! Read the nutritional labels! My favorite, exchanging apple pie for raw apples. Unless it's thanksgiving, who in their right mind, who is committing to a lfestyle change would consider eatting apple pie?

I am currently on Chapter 6, Testing and Evaluation. All these wonderful tests, and formulas. You have to know your oxygen uptake during exercising. Plot that number in a formula and get interesting results. However, not once does ACE tell you how you get your oxygen uptake. Evidently that is only available through clinical testings?

Earlier on in the Kinesiology/Anatamoy stuff, ACE mentions circumduction takes place in the multiplanar plane. WTF is circumduction and/or multiplanar? I later learned what this means in an outside source

In Appendix B, to paraphrase, ACE states, "the dynamic nature of this field requires that ACE certification exams to be regularly updated to ensure that they reflect the latest industry findings and research." So, do I need to know what ACE wants me to know in this book, or the updated info that might contradict ACE that I read about in Muscle & Fitness?

[getnfit4me]

I. too am studying ACE. I assume I have the recent edition (3rd edition, copyright 2003). The problems I am having in the Nutrition section (besides the protein 12-15% a day or 50-70g) is that in the amino acids supplements part, ACE is siting a 1991 report saying thatarginine and lysine may interfere with the absorption of essential amino acids. I would have to think that in the 12 years that passed (1991-2003) changes have been made in these supplements, or findings. It's as almost saying that you shouldn't take Tylenol because you can die.

Same page (page 129), there is a table that shows Protein in Common Foods. One item listed is 2 slices of pizza (32g). Though this *maybe* correct (pizzahut.com lists 2 large slices of cheese pizza - healthiest item that would have 32g of protein - would have 780 calories, 1600mg of sodium, 58g of fat!) There is no way in HELL I would recommend someone getting their protein via pizza. I will for the test, however. Maybe I am using bias, as I have been self-taught when it comes to nutrition over the apst 2 years. The following page has a Fat Substitions Table. You can recommend exchanging whole milk for skim milk. DUH! Read the nutritional labels! My favorite, exchanging apple pie for raw apples. Unless it's thanksgiving, who in their right mind, who is committing to a lfestyle change would consider eatting apple pie?

I am currently on Chapter 6, Testing and Evaluation. All these wonderful tests, and formulas. You have to know your oxygen uptake during exercising. Plot that number in a formula and get interesting results. However, not once does ACE tell you how you get your oxygen uptake. Evidently that is only available through clinical testings?

Earlier on in the Kinesiology/Anatamoy stuff, ACE mentions circumduction takes place in the multiplanar plane. WTF is circumduction and/or multiplanar? I later learned what this means in an outside source

In Appendix B, to paraphrase, ACE states, "the dynamic nature of this field requires that ACE certification exams to be regularly updated to ensure that they reflect the latest industry findings and research." So, do I need to know what ACE wants me to know in this book, or the updated info that might contradict ACE that I read about in Muscle & Fitness?

Woah - thanks Fresno, I'm definitely not going for ACE!

[Al Shades]

ACE may put technical material in their manuals, but the passing standards on their tests are very low. That's why, historically, they haven't been thought of as a top tier certifying organization.

[Kiknskreem]

I can understand the desire to do deep squats if it pertains to your (or your client's) life in some way (competing, or if the movement mimics your job function ), but your average person doesn't benefit much more from it,IMO. Most people will only go as deep as their desk chair or couch goes in normal life. Training should be practical in the sense of helping the client either improve their quality of life as is is, or in the sense of helping them reach their particular goal. If that goal involves a movement that deep squats pertains to, go for it.

Thoughts ?

You have a tenuous grasp on squats, anatomy, and their relationship to each other.

[ScrappyDew]

You know have a tenuous grasp on squats, anatomy, and their relationship to each other.

Elaborate please.

[Kiknskreem]

Elaborate please.

The notion that because you rarely end up in a deep squat position in your daily life and therefore do not benefit from training the squat's full RoM is utterly ridiculous.

It shows that your basic understanding of kinesiology and athletic training is quite unsound.

The basic barbell exercises are essentialy the loaded expression of basic human movement patterns. Joints and muscles need to be trained through their full RoM, the problem with high squats being quite numerous.

[koreanizm]

People who write those books are always looking for safety before hardcore results so I can see why they write it in that manner. Safety > All.

[ScrappyDew]

The notion that because you rarely end up in a deep squat position in your daily life and therefore do not benefit from training the squat's full RoM is utterly ridiculous.

It shows that your basic understanding of kinesiology and athletic training is quite unsound.

The basic barbell exercises are essentialy the loaded expression of basic human movement patterns. Joints and muscles need to be trained through their full RoM, the problem with high squats being quite numerous.

Re-read my post. I did not say that you do not benefit from it. I said that you do not benefit much more from it. On the other hand, I do not need any studies to tell me how MY body reacts to any particular exercise. I have minimal cartlidge in my left knee. Deep squats do me more harm than good, and that is obvious by the weeks of pain I endure from one session of deep squats alone.Note that I also said this:

I have to say that anything beyond parallel really does bother my knee. Not just at that time, but for quite a while after wards. For someone with a preexisting condition, why add to it ?

It appears to me that if you wouldn't consider medical situations, then perhaps you are the one that is lacking here. Maybe because you have no pain, then you assume nobody else will either.

Let me guess: You don't ask your clients what their goals are, nor do you ask them their any health related questions? Instead, you just train them all to be olympic lifters, or bodybuilders?

I used to do deep squats. After osteochondrial dessicans got a hold of me, it seems to be the wrong approach.