Shack X: In Ove We Trust

[Farley1324]

We take risks every day. If she wants to take the risk of leaving your side and if you want to take the risk of letting her, then her life is in her own hands. That's understood. Life is not a guarantee.

This is bullsh!t.

Forcibly denying others the ability to adequately defend themselves is bullsh!t.

When my wife's life is in her own hands, there is a chance that a Glock will also be in her own hands.

If the guy got his face knocked in during an ambush, he probably wouldn't have had a chance to draw a weapon before his vision is all blood and he's crying on the ground.

And if he saw them coming a couple of seconds ahead of time, he can prevent the whole thing from even happening.

Obviously the ambushers are *******s but he should've been more aware of his surroundings. Guns won't solve anything. If the ambushers had guns and so did he, he would still have lost (and would also be dead).

You are incorrect, and actual real world examples of people defending themselves with guns, from ambushes, from multiple attackers, and from multiple attackers with guns are out there.

[Farley1324]

[Blizzard589]

the problem is the people who want to use guns to victimize someone are always going to find it easy to get a gun. this will always be the case unless all the guns magically disappear. you can try fist fighting with a ******* with a gun but i prefer to have my own

I used to work with somebody who thought this way. Worse, actually. We got into it on ******** one day, finally. (I won't get into controversial stuff AT work) (I have added him as a friend, but his FB was open to the public)

I outlined a scenario where a woman's ex-husband, whom she divorced for beating and sexually assaulting her numerous times, and whom she has a restraining/protective order against, comes to her house and breaks in, telling her that he is going to rape and kill her. She shoots and stops him. Co-worker says that is absolutely wrong because violence, and especially lethal force, are absolutely never justified.

*******s like this are everywhere, especially in the UK...and among liberals and hippies here in the US.

The problem is that they take their own personal beliefs (which usually fall short if they are actually attacked seriously, they then look for something to use as a weapon to defend themselves) and they try to shove those beliefs down the throats of others, through force of law, thus restricting or preventing the most basic and fundamental right there is. The right to self defense and defense of ones family.

I'm not arguing for more gun control or more laws of any kind lulz. I think everyone who passes certain standard testing should have the option to carry a gun however they want. All I'm saying is that I don't like the ability to murder a large number of people in a short amount of time being in existence. People defended themselves (or failed to do so) just fine before guns. People died before guns and die with guns. People got clubbed, then stabbed, then shot, and now blown apart by large explosive devices. The last 2 make it possible for a large group of people to threaten the existence of an entire race/group/classification of people in a very short period of time and that ain't right.

Sometimes you have to quit b!tching about your own personal situation and think about the world.

This is bullsh!t.

Forcibly denying others the ability to adequately defend themselves is bullsh!t.

When my wife's life is in her own hands, there is a chance that a Glock will also be in her own hands.

And if he saw them coming a couple of seconds ahead of time, he can prevent the whole thing from even happening.

You are incorrect, and actual real world examples of people defending themselves with guns, from ambushes, from multiple attackers, and from multiple attackers with guns are out there.

lol u mad.

[Farley1324]

I think everyone who passes certain standard testing should have the option to carry a gun however they want.

[jerseyshorebrah]

1st page

[Farley1324]

Sucks to be this robber

[Blizzard589]

Lol... Do you understand my viewpoint though? I'm not trying to deny anyone anything. I just wish things were different...

[Farley1324]

Lol... Do you understand my viewpoint though? I'm not trying to deny anyone anything. I just wish things were different...

I don't agree with it, but I understand. I don't agree that people should have to be physically fit (not too old, not too frail, not female), free of injury, etc, in order to be able to put up a good defense.

Hell, not long ago I would have been totally and completely unable to defend myself even I had whatever sword or edged weapon or club I wanted that exists or has ever existed because my back was so FUBAR it took me a few minutes to sit down or stand up and something as simple as trying to roll over in bed (which failed) resulted in excruciating pain. Sure is nice to be able to put up a decent defense even if you aren't an injury free young male.

[Blizzard589]

I don't agree with it, but I understand. I don't agree that people should have to be physically fit (not too old, not too frail, not female), free of injury, etc, in order to be able to put up a good defense.

Hell, not long ago I would have been totally and completely unable to defend myself even I had whatever sword or edged weapon or club I wanted that exists or has ever existed because my back was so FUBAR it took me a few minutes to sit down or stand up and something as simple as trying to roll over in bed (which failed) resulted in excruciating pain. Sure is nice to be able to put up a decent defense even if you aren't an injury free young male.

You're a good man I recon but you're still focusing on personal and not national or global issues. You have such a negative nancy outlook which I can understand by watching the news every now and again but I've walked, biked, and/or driven all over New York and Florida, driven up and down the eastern seaboard, driven across the country to the grand canyon... Never gotten in a conflict that was not resolved with words.

[Farley1324]

You're a good man I recon but you're still focusing on personal and not national or global issues. You have such a negative nancy outlook which I can understand by watching the news every now and again but I've walked, biked, and/or driven all over New York and Florida, driven up and down the eastern seaboard, driven across the country to the grand canyon... Never gotten in a conflict that was not resolved with words.

I can certainly take a national or global look at it, if you like, but it's best to concentrate on one aspect/category at a time or things just go haywire and topics jump around all over the place without getting anywhere.

From a national level the properly formed statistics/data/facts say exactly what the topic of Dr John Lott's famous/infamous book says "More Guns, Less Crime".

Also, the purpose of the Second Amendment is NOT personal defense or defense of a citizen from another citizen.

The real purpose of the Second Amendment is a check against a tyrannical government. Disarming citizens is one step towards making them subjects.

Notice that guys like Matt are subjects. They are not citizens, they are subjects. There is a difference, and even simply watching the Olympics and seeing how they just love their ruling elite...and how their national anthem is all about their ruling elite...you can see it clear as day.

[PowderMonkey]

Farley I have a legit question for you

Where are the people who shoot back, who take down the idiots who decide to go on the rampages?

[Farley1324]

Farley I have a legit question for you

Where are the people who shoot back, who take down the idiots who decide to go on the rampages?

Anywhere.

However, those "idiots" usually aren't. They go out of their way to select places that have the lowest probability of armed victims. Schools, colleges, churches, businesses with no guns signs...these so called gun free zones (not so gun free, as the mass shooters prove) are sometimes referred to as "criminal empowerment zones". The most recent big one here...the theater in Colorado...was posted as no firearms allowed by the ownership/management, for example.

[Bella11507]

My goodness so many crazy male opinions....so from a tiny female opinion, I don't particularly like guns. But guns will help the good guys stop the bad guys in the end. Now if you think about it realistically, there are so many other things you can do first (doesn't matter if pregnant or not, unless she's giving birth or being thrown down stairs were not that fragile) we CAN fight back with all the adrenaline, alarms, pepper spray, etc that has been stated already.

Unless we are being kidnapped the person will leave you alone when they get what they want....unless you're stupid, or they are high. Again I don't need a gun to feel comfortable I have Zach, mace, and maybe some kind of bat for when he's gone during the late night shifts.

I understand you want to be protective because she's preggo and that's sweet but I'd want more credit, I would fight tooth and nail if I was kidnapped or brutally attacked. Oh I forgot, unless you're a regular hunter I don't know how easy it would be for most people to kill someone. You might say that now til you have to shoot someone to death and deal with that forever, and then come see me every other week!

[Farley1324]

My goodness so many crazy male opinions....so from a tiny female opinion, I don't particularly like guns. But guns will help the good guys stop the bad guys in the end. Now if you think about it realistically, there are so many other things you can do first (doesn't matter if pregnant or not, unless she's giving birth or being thrown down stairs were not that fragile) we CAN fight back with all the adrenaline, alarms, pepper spray, etc that has been stated already.

Alarms? What kind of alarm, and what will do it?

Pepper Spray isn't guaranteed to do anything. It might have an effect, it might work, it might not. You can fight through it.

Unless we are being kidnapped the person will leave you alone when they get what they want....unless you're stupid, or they are high.

Not true at all.

You don't want me to get into the details of what process predators do to people.

Again I don't need a gun to feel comfortable I have Zach, mace, and maybe some kind of bat for when he's gone during the late night shifts.

I'll bet I could kill a woman your size, who had a bat, with my bare hands if I wanted to. I never would, don't get me wrong, but for purposes of this discussion...I would wish you luck, cause you'd need it.

I understand you want to be protective because she's preggo and that's sweet but I'd want more credit, I would fight tooth and nail if I was kidnapped or brutally attacked. Oh I forgot, unless you're a regular hunter I don't know how easy it would be for most people to kill someone. You might say that now til you have to shoot someone to death and deal with that forever, and then come see me every other week!

It isn't about killing, it's about stopping the attacker. In the majority of defensive gun uses no shots are fired. Most of the times that shots are fired nobody is hit. Approximately 80% of people shot by a handgun survive. Killing the attacker is actually pretty rare. Now, you must be mentally prepared for that as a possibility, absolutely, and nobody can know how they will react unless and until, God forbid, they have to find out the hard way. Having to shoot and possibly kill somebody to protect yourself is kinda like the second worse thing that can happen, with the worse being needing to do so but not being able, for whatever reason (don't have a gun, it doesn't work, you fail to stop the attack, etc)

The number one goal is avoidance. You don't get hurt if you aren't even there in the first place. After that de-escalation is your primary goal.

[PowderMonkey]

There was a massacre over here about 15 years ago in Tasmania. 34 people were killed in a cafe. This is the point at which gun laws were tightened up significantly over here. It's not illegal to own a gun, but it's quite tricky to get a license and the government knows who is buying guns and ammunition (which you can't buy without first having a licence)

I don't know anyone who has a gun. The only time I've ever even seen a gun in australia is on the hip of cops.
The only time gun related crimes take place over here is when criminals shoot other criminals. Restricting the availability of guns does not make unbalanced individuals less unbalanced, but it makes it harder for their unbalanced nature to hurt people.

It's a bit hard to go on a rampage with a blade. It's messy, and it's not fast. People who try tend to be stopped before they get very far. It's also much easier to defend yourself against a blade than against a gun, because a blade by necessity must be used at very close quarters to do any significant damage.

I don't understand the right to bear arms. I just don't get how it is a good thing. I want to know why you think it is a good thing. I don't expect to change your opinion on this but I do want to know what the attraction is to owning firearms, because I actually find the idea of owning a gun repugnant

[Farley1324]

There was a massacre over here about 15 years ago in Tasmania. 34 people were killed in a cafe. This is the point at which gun laws were tightened up significantly over here. It's not illegal to own a gun, but it's quite tricky to get a license and the government knows who is buying guns and ammunition (which you can't buy without first having a licence)

I don't know anyone who has a gun. The only time I've ever even seen a gun in australia is on the hip of cops.
The only time gun related crimes take place over here is when criminals shoot other criminals. Restricting the availability of guns does not make unbalanced individuals less unbalanced, but it makes it harder for their unbalanced nature to hurt people.

It's a bit hard to go on a rampage with a blade. It's messy, and it's not fast. People who try tend to be stopped before they get very far. It's also much easier to defend yourself against a blade than against a gun, because a blade by necessity must be used at very close quarters to do any significant damage.

I don't understand the right to bear arms. I just don't get how it is a good thing. I want to know why you think it is a good thing. I don't expect to change your opinion on this but I do want to know what the attraction is to owning firearms, because I actually find the idea of owning a gun repugnant

Have you read the whole discussion on the topic up to this point?

[PowderMonkey]

Have you read the whole discussion on the topic up to this point?

Yes

[Farley1324]

Yes

Are you happier being a subject than a citizen?

What can my wife do to defend herself as effectively as possible?

What can an injured, old, weak, etc individual do to most effectively defend themselves?

[PowderMonkey]

Are you happier being a subject than a citizen?

What can my wife do to defend herself as effectively as possible?

What can an injured, old, weak, etc individual do to most effectively defend themselves?

My brother and his wife have a baby. She's not yet even one. I know that when my sister in law was pregnant, and now that they have a small child, that they do not live in fear of those around them enough to warrant carrying around a gun, let lone owning one. They have locks on the doors, and the time it would take an unsavory individual to break in would be sufficient to get out of the house and get to the car or the neighbors.

A gun isn't going to protect these people from a fire. What do you do if there is a fire?

I don't understand your comment about "subject" vs "citizen". What do you mean by that?

[Farley1324]

You didn't answer my question. Please answer my question.

"What can my wife do to defend herself as effectively as possible?

What can an injured, old, weak, etc individual do to most effectively defend themselves?"

My brother and his wife have a baby. She's not yet even one. I know that when my sister in law was pregnant, and now that they have a small child, that they do not live in fear of those around them enough to warrant carrying around a gun, let lone owning one. They have locks on the doors, and the time it would take an unsavory individual to break in would be sufficient to get out of the house and get to the car or the neighbors.

Nobody said anything about living in fear.

If I put my seat belt on every single moment I am in any kind of moving vehicle, am I living in fear?

If I have an above average number of smoke detectors, CO detectors, explosive gas detectors, and fire extinguishers in my home, am I living in fear?

If I only squat in my power rack with the safeties properly set, am I living in fear?

What are they so afraid of that they have to have such awesome locks on their doors and a plan on how to escape should the need arise? (BTW, I will bet $ that the escape plan guarantee you speak of wouldn't work for sh.it if it really needed to)

A gun isn't going to protect these people from a fire. What do you do if there is a fire?

It's almost like I'm a psychic. See above.

Is your position really so weak that you feel the need to change the topic before we even get anywhere?

I don't understand your comment about "subject" vs "citizen". What do you mean by that?

We can get to that later. It's a bit different. Let's settle the above first. (short answer: You gotta do whatever your ruling class dictate and have no means of stopping them)

[TheSmiley]

I agree with carrying firearms. I go to school in downtown Atlanta, and pepper spray isn't going to cut it if you live there. The thought of even having protection brings me peace of mind.

[Farley1324]

I agree with carrying firearms. I go to school in downtown Atlanta, and pepper spray isn't going to cut it if you live there. The thought of even having protection brings me peace of mind.

Downtown Atlanta is one place I really like being able to have a gun.

[Bella11507]

Alarms? What kind of alarm, and what will do it?

Pepper Spray isn't guaranteed to do anything. It might have an effect, it might work, it might not. You can fight through it.

Alarms will alert someone, you, your neighbors, the police.....

Not true at all.
You don't want me to get into the details of what process predators do to people.

Idk where you learn your facts, but I go to school and learn them from my crim professors for a grade...What do you do for a living? That you say you can go in depth into the mind of a predator? Are you one? Lol do you watch TV? Why do you claim to know so much and why are you so afraid?

I'll bet I could kill a woman your size, who had a bat, with my bare hands if I wanted to. I never would, don't get me wrong, but for purposes of this discussion...I would wish you luck, cause you'd need it.

This sounds borderline sociopathic, do you think about this much?

It isn't about killing, it's about stopping the attacker. In the majority of defensive gun uses no shots are fired. Most of the times that shots are fired nobody is hit. Approximately 80% of people shot by a handgun survive. Killing the attacker is actually pretty rare. Now, you must be mentally prepared for that as a possibility, absolutely, and nobody can know how they will react unless and until, God forbid, they have to find out the hard way. Having to shoot and possibly kill somebody to protect yourself is kinda like the second worse thing that can happen, with the worse being needing to do so but not being able, for whatever reason (don't have a gun, it doesn't work, you fail to stop the attack, etc)

The number one goal is avoidance. You don't get hurt if you aren't even there in the first place. After that de-escalation is your primary goal.

Guns easily kill. You don't have a gun in the hopes that when someone breaks into your house to attack you and do whatever you think they are there for that you hit their toe. You have a gun (if its for protection) knowing some day that you might have to use it and be prepared to kill every time you do. You make it sound like every intruder is there to kill you or take you or shoot you 7 times in the hopes you'll leave them alone while they take your stuff....so if you say the gun is for avoidance why is everyone out to get you? I don't understand....also, how do you defensively use our gun without shooting? Your telling me these people that you claim could kill me in a heart beat see me wave a gun, that have a gun, would run away whimpering? I'm very confused

[Farley1324]

Alarms will alert someone, you, your neighbors, the police.....

What kind of alarm?

How will it alert the police?

What will alerting people do?

Idk where you learn your facts, but I go to school and learn them from my crim professors for a grade...What do you do for a living? That you say you can go in depth into the mind of a predator? Are you one? Lol do you watch TV? Why do you claim to know so much and why are you so afraid?

I have a criminal justice degree. I have worked for a police department. I have worked in a police department's "Crime Analysis" section. I have gone to a police academy. I have done more than my fair share of research by reading books written by verified industry professionals and others who are in the know.

Do you know what a process predator is?

This sounds borderline sociopathic, do you think about this much?

You said (or implied) you could defend yourself from violent attack with a baseball bat. I disagree, and I gave an example. I will take your response as an acknowledgement that your baseball bat is just a feel-good measure that probably won't actually do you any good. I'd wager that, more likely than anything else, it would just give your attacker something to hit you with.

Guns easily kill. You don't have a gun in the hopes that when someone breaks into your house to attack you and do whatever you think they are there for that you hit there toe. You have a gun (if its for protection) knowing some day that you might have to use it and be prepared to kill every time you do. You make it sound like every intruder is there to kill you or take you or shoot you 7 times in the hoped you'll leave them alone while they take your stuff....so if you say the gun is for avoidance why is everyone out to get you? I don't understand....also, how do you defensively use our gun without shooting? Your telling me these people that you claim could kill me in a heart beat see me wave a gun, that have a gun, would run away whimpering? I'm very confused

The gun isn't for avoidance. I never said nor implied that it was. I said that avoidance is the most important thing, and it is. Avoidance includes: The old rule that nothing good happens after midnight, or that nothing good happens after 10 and only bad things happen after midnight. It is best to avoid places where people intake mind altering substances, such as alcohol or drugs. It is best to not flip off the other driver, or cut them off, or do anything else to piss them off. All kinds of things of that nature, they are the most important and they are your first line of defense.


Yes, that is what happens. They see their intended victim pull out a gun, the body language and facial expression and actions of the intended victim telegraph that said individual is ready, willing, and able to use that gun and the would-be attackers flee. That happens frequently.

Like I said, the majority of defensive gun uses do not involve shots being fired. The vast majority of people, even the vast majority of violent criminals, do not want to get shot.

[Farley1324]

I don't understand....also, how do you defensively use our gun without shooting? Your telling me these people that you claim could kill me in a heart beat see me wave a gun, that have a gun, would run away whimpering? I'm very confused

Watch and learn. This one is less than a week old. FIVE...count them...FIVE young males...ARMED with guns...rob a jewelry store. They can't fuking get out of that door fast enough, tripping over themselves as they go, because the 65 year old woman presents a handgun.

I think that perhaps your professors you are learning from don't know jack fuking sh.it. Don't worry, it's common. Mine didn't either.

[Farley1324]

Some good/relevant reading (I have acquired more since then I can recommend if anybody is actually interested):

[PowderMonkey]

You didn't answer my question. Please answer my question.

"What can my wife do to defend herself as effectively as possible?

What can an injured, old, weak, etc individual do to most effectively defend themselves?"




Nobody said anything about living in fear.

If I put my seat belt on every single moment I am in any kind of moving vehicle, am I living in fear?

If I have an above average number of smoke detectors, CO detectors, explosive gas detectors, and fire extinguishers in my home, am I living in fear?

If I only squat in my power rack with the safeties properly set, am I living in fear?

What are they so afraid of that they have to have such awesome locks on their doors and a plan on how to escape should the need arise? (BTW, I will bet $ that the escape plan guarantee you speak of wouldn't work for sh.it if it really needed to)




It's almost like I'm a psychic. See above.

Is your position really so weak that you feel the need to change the topic before we even get anywhere?



We can get to that later. It's a bit different. Let's settle the above first. (short answer: You gotta do whatever your ruling class dictate and have no means of stopping them)

I'm not trying to change the topic. I'm trying to understand.

The reason I mentioned a fire is because the plan is the same: get out. As quickly as possible. Something like a fire extinguisher is a tool to help with this. How is a gun going to help an escape plan? Once you point a gun at someone, you are more concerned with keeping it pointed at them than with leaving.

If fear is not the motivator, then what is the motivator? I don't need a question or a self discovery here, just tell me, please.

Subject vs citizen: do you follow the laws of your state? You might have heard about a kerfuffle over here to do with video game ratings. We have a classification system over here for things like films, books, radio, video games etc. G ("general", anyone), PG ("parental guidance", recommended that a parent is around to discuss if the viewer is under the age of 15, but it's just a recommendation), M ("mature", recommended for viewers over the age of 15, but not strictly enforced), MA ("mature audiences", anyone less than 15 years is not able to buy something with this classification), R ("restricted", viewers under the age of 18 cannot buy anything with this classification, strictly enforced), RC ("refused classification", not available in australia, if discovered by customs at import then it's confiscated)

Video games have not had the R rating over here yet, but it's likely they will in the next few months. This means that games which have sufficient violence in them (above MA) are RC because there is no R rating.

This is something that I myself have been instrumental in seeing changed. This has been organized through bugging the hell out of members of parliament via emails, phone calls, petitions, rallies, and demonstrations. It's been about 3 years in the making.

If I disagree with the government, there is a process for changing the laws, which I use. Effectively. How is owning a gun going to change this in any way whatsoever?

[Farley1324]

I'm not trying to change the topic. I'm trying to understand.

The reason I mentioned a fire is because the plan is the same: get out. As quickly as possible. Something like a fire extinguisher is a tool to help with this. How is a gun going to help an escape plan? Once you point a gun at someone, you are more concerned with keeping it pointed at them than with leaving.

Well, first of all, the first thing that comes to MY mind if somebody breaks into my house is not to run away. I have things of value in my home. There are other people (wife for now, will be kids soon) in my house. There are pets in my house. I don't intend to just leave them at the mercy of the violent criminal that just broke into my home.

Also, on a practical level, it is far fetched to think that if we're in the bedroom and somebody breaks in we are going to be able to just walk right by the home invaders in order to go out a door.

The fire extinguishers are not primarily intended to make getting out easier, although that is certainly a potential use. They are primarily intended to stop a fire before it gets out of control and forces total evacuation.

If fear is not the motivator, then what is the motivator? I don't need a question or a self discovery here, just tell me, please.

The problem is that you took the typical liberal counter-attack position of implying that people only own or carry guns out of some irrational fear that the world is out to get them. Reasonable, logical, stable people make all kinds of decisions every single day...including very large life altering decisions...based on self preservation or some variation therof. To take the "why are you so afraid of the world?" angle is a combination of a red herring and a veiled ad-hominem. I see firearm ownership as reasonable, logical action taken to mitigate some of the dangers life presents.

Subject vs citizen: do you follow the laws of your state? You might have heard about a kerfuffle over here to do with video game ratings. We have a classification system over here for things like films, books, radio, video games etc. G ("general", anyone), PG ("parental guidance", recommended that a parent is around to discuss if the viewer is under the age of 15, but it's just a recommendation), M ("mature", recommended for viewers over the age of 15, but not strictly enforced), MA ("mature audiences", anyone less than 15 years is not able to buy something with this classification), R ("restricted", viewers under the age of 18 cannot buy anything with this classification, strictly enforced), RC ("refused classification", not available in australia, if discovered by customs at import then it's confiscated)

Video games have not had the R rating over here yet, but it's likely they will in the next few months. This means that games which have sufficient violence in them (above MA) are RC because there is no R rating.

This is something that I myself have been instrumental in seeing changed. This has been organized through bugging the hell out of members of parliament via emails, phone calls, petitions, rallies, and demonstrations. It's been about 3 years in the making.

If I disagree with the government, there is a process for changing the laws, which I use. Effectively. How is owning a gun going to change this in any way whatsoever?

That is just one example of what often comes hand in hand with such restrictive gun control. At the higher levels of government gun control is not about guns, it's about control. It's about a nanny state where the government controls all kinds of aspects of your personal lives. This is why our most liberal cities with the most restrictive gun laws also happen to have the most laws about video game/movie ratings, trans fat limitations, and all kinds of other stupid ass controls over people's personal lives.

[Farley1324]

PM:

What should my wife do to adequately defend herself from unlawful, violent, criminal attack?

A straight up answer. Not changing the topic. Not drawing a parallel. Not talking about your neighbors. What should she do?

[Jrahe42]

anyone hear about the 85 year old man who benched 257?