Problem is, many noobs who log on to this forum won't bother listening to the truth. And the truth sometimes hurts. They won't bother reading this post or other good ones like it because they think they know better and can't be bothered to work hard.
The simple facts are these: You need to use basic lifts starting out of the gate. There is a time and place for leg extensions, pullovers, tricep pushdowns, concentration curls, laterals and the like, but the truth is that all of the big and strong guys, every single one of them, both past and present, got to be big and strong by focusing on the major lifts. If not benches, then inclines. If not squats (although most guys then as now did or do them) then front squats, lunges, and leg presses. If not deadlifts, then heavy good mornings (i.e. Bruce Randall)...and so on. Presses, shrugs, dips, rows...the list goes on, and all the old-timers and the pros and high amateurs now do them, or equally hard variations on them.
And these lifts are not glamorous. They are hard to do, take your energy out of you, make you hurt (in a good way) all over. But they are effective, and they work, and that's why they should be done.
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07-28-2009, 06:18 PM #31"Don't call me Miss Kitty. Just...don't."--Catnip. Check out the Catnip Trilogy on Amazon.com
"Chivalry isn't dead. It just wears a skirt."--Twisted, the YA gender bender deal of the century!
Check out my links to Mr. Taxi, Star Maps, and other fine YA Action/Romance novels at http://www.amazon.com/J.S.-Frankel/e/B004XUUTB8/ref=dp_byline_cont_ebooks_1
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07-28-2009, 06:35 PM #32
- Join Date: Aug 2007
- Location: Shreveport, Louisiana, United States
- Age: 54
- Posts: 1,594
- Rep Power: 610
What's really bothersome is the guys who will post asking for advice, then flat out say they are not going to follow the good advice they have received. People just flat saying they will not do the core lifts (squats, DL, Bench, rows, press) and insist they are okay doing something else. There should be a test you have to pass before even posting.
Roll Tide
Consciousness: The annoying time between naps.
I wouldn't touch the metric system with a 3.048m pole.
There are only 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
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07-28-2009, 08:26 PM #33
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07-29-2009, 05:43 AM #34
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07-29-2009, 06:53 AM #35
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07-29-2009, 06:55 AM #36
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07-29-2009, 08:02 AM #37
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07-29-2009, 08:14 AM #38
Posting that " I play Rugby / run a lot / ride a bike / (take your pick), so I'm not going to train my legs" is the best way I know to get your post overlooked.
Same goes with stating that you "don't have time to eat."
If your thinking is along these lines, you'd do better to find a different "hobby;" bodybuilding isn't for you.No brain, no gain.
"The fitness and nutrition world is a breeding ground for obsessive-compulsive behavior. The irony is that many of the things people worry about have no impact on results either way, and therefore aren't worth an ounce of concern."--Alan Aragon
Where the mind goes, the body follows.
Ironwill Gym:
https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=629719403&postcount=3388
Ironwill2008 Journal:
https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=157459343&p=1145168733
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07-29-2009, 09:13 AM #39
What I have experienced is that people come seeking confirmation, not critique. What they want is to hear that they are right. So THEY know they are right, and they seek others who support this thought, and when you aren't one of those people they ignore you.
I wrote up a simple, but pretty decent strongman training (gym work only, no implements available) workout the other day. Within three days I saw my workout re-posted, completely f*ckered up, with all kinds of "Does this workout look good?"
...They didn't, and I instantly jumped in and posted the workout as written. The thing is I can't understand why the changes were made, they make no sense and seem almost random.
I have a strong urge to neg people that I bother to help and who ignore it.GoRuck Challenge Journal: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=150446113
"No one could make a greater mistake than he who did nothing because he could do only a little." -Edmund Burke
"Because your own strength is unequal to the task, do not assume that it is beyond the powers of man; but if anything is within the powers and province of man, believe that it is within your own compass also." -Marcus Aurelius
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07-29-2009, 10:21 AM #40
- Join Date: Aug 2007
- Location: Shreveport, Louisiana, United States
- Age: 54
- Posts: 1,594
- Rep Power: 610
Andrew, you are dead on here. I think they really want to hear "looks good, brah, good luck," not "that sucks, you need to do squats, deads (or something else that they don't want to do)."
I think programs get changed for a few different reasons by newbs:
1) They don't want to do squats or deadlifts
2) They want to hit chest and/or arms more often
3) They wrongly think the program, as written, is either over- or under-training
4) They think they are smarter than the folks who have tested and proven a program to be effective, even if that person is a world-renowned coach who has forgotten more about lifting than they will ever know
In addition to possibly negging those who ask then ignore the advice, I really wanna neg the guys who confirm the stupid programs as okay. "Sure, man, three arm workouts for every leg workout looks good. Good luck." Then the newbs think they have just gotten good advice and go do that stupid chit.Roll Tide
Consciousness: The annoying time between naps.
I wouldn't touch the metric system with a 3.048m pole.
There are only 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
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07-29-2009, 11:04 AM #41GoRuck Challenge Journal: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=150446113
"No one could make a greater mistake than he who did nothing because he could do only a little." -Edmund Burke
"Because your own strength is unequal to the task, do not assume that it is beyond the powers of man; but if anything is within the powers and province of man, believe that it is within your own compass also." -Marcus Aurelius
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07-29-2009, 11:22 AM #42
- Join Date: Aug 2007
- Location: Shreveport, Louisiana, United States
- Age: 54
- Posts: 1,594
- Rep Power: 610
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07-29-2009, 11:26 AM #43GoRuck Challenge Journal: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=150446113
"No one could make a greater mistake than he who did nothing because he could do only a little." -Edmund Burke
"Because your own strength is unequal to the task, do not assume that it is beyond the powers of man; but if anything is within the powers and province of man, believe that it is within your own compass also." -Marcus Aurelius
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07-29-2009, 11:30 AM #44
Honestly it doesn't help that the average "professional trainer" is going to set someone starting out on a machine circuit. When I started at my gym, not knowing much about how/what to lift, he put me on a "program" that involved doing 10-15 or so machines (split betw 2 days) and zero barbell work. Same guy, who I think is the owner of the gym, has been training another guy one on one, I saw him spotting the guy on squats, loading on massive weight and only doing quarter squats in bad form... It's pretty lame that at the average gym you can hardly get any worthwhile help at all, which is why I consider myself lucky for finding this site.
It's amazing, of all the regulars at the gym, I'm one of two that does squats and dips, and the only one that does deadlifts, barbell rows, or clean and press.. And I didn't do any of those either until I posted my noob routine on these boards and got set right heh.Last edited by klir_2m; 07-29-2009 at 11:33 AM.
The more you know, the more you squat.
Raw 1RM's: 455 Squat, 450 Deadlift, 225 Bench
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07-29-2009, 11:31 AM #45
Most of the "rate my routine" posters are 130 pound, 17 year-old kids. And if you look at the stats of the posters replying with the "looks good, brah" posts, they're the same, or maybe worse. There's something to be said for qualifying the advice you decide to take.
This post is also to bump the thread.No brain, no gain.
"The fitness and nutrition world is a breeding ground for obsessive-compulsive behavior. The irony is that many of the things people worry about have no impact on results either way, and therefore aren't worth an ounce of concern."--Alan Aragon
Where the mind goes, the body follows.
Ironwill Gym:
https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=629719403&postcount=3388
Ironwill2008 Journal:
https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=157459343&p=1145168733
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07-29-2009, 01:01 PM #46
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07-29-2009, 01:09 PM #47
I think a few youtube clips of good form on the deadlifts, squats, and BORs could be helpful.
A point I find myself making over and over again with newbies is that if they don't have the focus to even read the stickies, how can they expect to have any kind of success in a gym?---
This Machine Kills Fascists.
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BULKING LOG : http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=137967093&pagenumber=
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BTK - Bleed Time Krew
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"He runs, an activity that we defeated eons ago when humans discovered we are slower than every other animal on earth and can ride horses" - joelash302
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07-29-2009, 03:43 PM #48
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07-29-2009, 04:24 PM #49
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07-29-2009, 05:31 PM #50
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07-29-2009, 07:00 PM #51
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^^^^^This, and I'd add that CookAndrew is also dead on with his ideas. Programmes which were written by coaches WHO HAVE BEEN THERE AND DONE ALL THAT WERE WRITTEN TO BE FOLLOWED TO THE LETTER. It is not an "either/or" proposition; you should do it as it is written. See Bamma's #4 point. And, yes, I'd rather take the advice or at least seriously listen to someone who's been around and knows all the ins and outs of training. So let it be written, so let it be done. The ONLY time you should be subbing in something is if and only IF you have some kind of injury preventing you from doing the deads or squats, in which case perhaps you shouldn't be doing the original programme at all. But I digress.
klir, I hear what you're saying and perhaps you're right; I haven't been to a regular gym in a long time, but from my experience here (Japan) the trainers know next to nothing. However, you must also realize that many of the people who walk into a gym are unclear as to what their goals are, and many of them are not into the "harcorz" training, so perhaps, and I'm just guessing, the PT's choose the safest, general option. And also, maybe many PT's don't have a clue either here or in N. America; I'm not sure, and I'd hate to blanket statement this. I'd like to think that many PT's do take their jobs seriously and know what their clients want and help them to reach their goals, but the more I read...again, I digress.
As for this site, you'll get a lot of decent advice if you know whose name to look for; you'll also get a lot of bro-science and that just comes iwth the territory. If there's any blame to be attached, it should be on the guy who's given decent advice by guys like Defiant1, All Pro, CookAndrew, N@t1, fbcoach, and a few others---and then chooses to ignore it.
Finally, as for negging some newb who replies to what you write and then dismisses it, I wouldn't bother negging them. "Leave 'em to Heaven" is what my late father used to say, and perhaps he was right."Don't call me Miss Kitty. Just...don't."--Catnip. Check out the Catnip Trilogy on Amazon.com
"Chivalry isn't dead. It just wears a skirt."--Twisted, the YA gender bender deal of the century!
Check out my links to Mr. Taxi, Star Maps, and other fine YA Action/Romance novels at http://www.amazon.com/J.S.-Frankel/e/B004XUUTB8/ref=dp_byline_cont_ebooks_1
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07-30-2009, 05:55 AM #52
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07-30-2009, 07:33 AM #53
- Join Date: Jun 2009
- Location: Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, United Kingdom (Great Britain)
- Age: 47
- Posts: 19,532
- Rep Power: 0
Bumping this back up. I tend to agree with Cook in that I have more of a desire to neg those who go "looks good brah!" than the OP when some 140 lbs kid posts a routine full of cable flyes and concentration curls.
Sometimes I look at the pics and stats of the 3 or 4 guys going "looks good brah... that is almost exactally what I do!" and they all have 14" arms and 38" chests... at which point I often have the desire, which I do not follow through with, to tell them that those giving their approval probably do not know enough about bodybuilding or training for hypertrophy to give sound advice yet. What is even more amazing is when 1 or 2 good sized guys chime in ask where the squats, deadlifts and overhead presses are and the OP ignores them and continues listening to the other noobs.
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07-30-2009, 07:51 AM #54To guys starting out - please understand: when you can deadlift 450lb for 10 reps your back, hamstrings & traps will reflect THAT not which program you used to get there. When you can curl 150 for 10, your biceps will reflect THAT, not which program, rep range or method you used to get there. There is no voodoo independent of poundage progression, just faster and slower ways of getting to your next pit stop.
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07-30-2009, 10:12 AM #55
- Join Date: Jun 2009
- Location: State College, Pennsylvania, United States
- Age: 36
- Posts: 201
- Rep Power: 200
sticky.
a couple weeks ago i was exactly the guy youre talking about. fortunately for me, brudman was nice enough to show me the light and point me in the right direction.
brudman: youre getting reps one day when i can finally give them lol"There are few things graven in stone except that you have to squat, or you're a pussy."
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07-30-2009, 10:19 AM #56
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07-30-2009, 11:21 AM #57
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07-30-2009, 01:36 PM #58
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07-30-2009, 02:41 PM #59
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07-30-2009, 03:00 PM #60
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