NO-BETA.....best stim free pre-workout?

[Lucky_ROA]

My opinion is valued unlike yours. But the mods obviously look the other way when you throw personal insults around like you did to TMac But that's OK, you keep doing your thing.

YUP truly shows how valued your opinion is when it is categorized as TROLLING among the respected members of this board

[PLANETGETLOW]

Both of you dudes need to put each other on ignore.

I've only had my second cup of coffee and you guys are trying my patience.

Stop before I ban both of you. DAMN!!

[TMac26]

Hey TMAC, so you rated NO-Beta a 4/10 based on taste.....I didn't know tablets had a taste. This is why ratings like yours get deleted.

You opinion is invalid. You have given EVERY Double T product a 10/10.

Are you aware of the pharmacodynamics of the ingredient and the pharmacokinetics in relation ?

Please post scientific studies where the ingredients you have mentioned are junk, until then please refrain from posting. Keep in mind AAKG is not in the product for the NO; other ingredients are though T

Ok then. Why is AAKG in there? Why put some worthless ingredient that does nothing for NO Production in the body?

1: J Nutr Biochem. 2008 Aug 15. [Epub ahead of print]
Liu TH, Wu CL, Chiang CW, Lo YW, Tseng HF, Chang CK.
No effect of short-term arginine supplementation on nitric oxide production, metabolism and performance in intermittent exercise in athletes.

Arginine supplementation has been shown to alleviate endothelial dysfunction and improve exercise performance through increasing nitric oxide production in patients with cardiopulmonary diseases. In addition, arginine supplementation could decrease accumulations of lactate and ammonia, metabolites involved in development of muscular fatigue. The aim of this study was to investigate the effect of short-term arginine supplementation on performance in intermittent anaerobic exercise and the underlying mechanism in well-trained male athletes. Ten elite male college judo athletes participated with a randomized crossover, placebo-controlled design. The subjects consumed 6 g/day arginine (ARG trial) or placebo (CON trial) for 3 days then performed an intermittent anaerobic exercise test on a cycle ergometer. Blood samples were collected before supplementation, before and during exercise and 0, 3, 6, 10, 30 and 60 min after exercise. ARG trial had significantly higher arginine concentrations than CON trial at the same time point before, during and after exercise. In both trials, nitrate and nitrite concentration was significantly higher during and 6 min after exercise comparing to the basal concentration. The increase in nitrate and nitrite concentration during exercise in both trials was parallel to the increase in plasma citrulline concentrations. There was no significant difference between the 2 trials in plasma nitrate and nitrite, lactate and ammonia concentrations and peak and average power in the exercise. The results of this study suggested that short-term arginine supplementation had no effect on nitric oxide production, lactate and ammonia metabolism and performance in intermittent anaerobic exercise in well-trained male athletes.



Can you answer that one?

Or are you going to try and defend AAKG? Next you are gonna try and defend CEE.



This my last post PLG.

[Lucky_ROA]

You opinion is invalid. You have given EVERY Double T product a 10/10.





Ok then. Why is AAKG in there? Why put some worthless ingredient that does nothing for NO Production in the body?

1: J Nutr Biochem. 2008 Aug 15. [Epub ahead of print]
Liu TH, Wu CL, Chiang CW, Lo YW, Tseng HF, Chang CK.
No effect of short-term arginine supplementation on nitric oxide production, metabolism and performance in intermittent exercise in athletes.

Arginine supplementation has been shown to alleviate endothelial dysfunction and improve exercise performance through increasing nitric oxide production in patients with cardiopulmonary diseases. In addition, arginine supplementation could decrease accumulations of lactate and ammonia, metabolites involved in development of muscular fatigue. The aim of this study was to investigate the effect of short-term arginine supplementation on performance in intermittent anaerobic exercise and the underlying mechanism in well-trained male athletes. Ten elite male college judo athletes participated with a randomized crossover, placebo-controlled design. The subjects consumed 6 g/day arginine (ARG trial) or placebo (CON trial) for 3 days then performed an intermittent anaerobic exercise test on a cycle ergometer. Blood samples were collected before supplementation, before and during exercise and 0, 3, 6, 10, 30 and 60 min after exercise. ARG trial had significantly higher arginine concentrations than CON trial at the same time point before, during and after exercise. In both trials, nitrate and nitrite concentration was significantly higher during and 6 min after exercise comparing to the basal concentration. The increase in nitrate and nitrite concentration during exercise in both trials was parallel to the increase in plasma citrulline concentrations. There was no significant difference between the 2 trials in plasma nitrate and nitrite, lactate and ammonia concentrations and peak and average power in the exercise. The results of this study suggested that short-term arginine supplementation had no effect on nitric oxide production, lactate and ammonia metabolism and performance in intermittent anaerobic exercise in well-trained male athletes.



Can you answer that one?

Or are you going to try and defend AAKG? Next you are gonna try and defend CEE.

Are you serious ? Have you been reading previous posts ? AAKG is in there because it provides a PUMP !!!!!! The market/consumer DEMANDS the PUMP they get from L-Arginine/AAKG.

Google PHARMACODYNAMICS OF L-ARGININE. And see what/how l-arginine works once inside the body.

I will REPHRASE, use your mouse cursor and SEARCH(this time) for the ingredient panel and look at the ingredients responsible for NO !!!!!

HINT : It ain't L-arg/AAKG or CEE

[rhizome]

Are you serious ? Have you been reading previous posts ? AAKG is in there because it provides a PUMP !!!!!! The market/consumer DEMANDS the PUMP they get from L-Arginine/AAKG.

Google PHARMACODYNAMICS OF L-ARGININE. And see what/how l-arginine works once inside the body.

I will REPHRASE, use your mouse cursor and SEARCH(this time) for the ingredient panel and look at the ingredients responsible for NO !!!!!

HINT : It ain't L-arg/AAKG or CEE

If oral arginine in HEALTHY HUMANS doesn't increase NO, doesn't affect hemodynamics and doesn't increase insulin which could indirectly give you a pump, it's not given anyone a pump.

[TMac26]

Are you serious ? Have you been reading previous posts ? AAKG is in there because it provides a PUMP !!!!!! The market/consumer DEMANDS the PUMP they get from L-Arginine/AAKG.

Google PHARMACODYNAMICS OF L-ARGININE. And see what/how l-arginine works once inside the body.

I will REPHRASE, use your mouse cursor and SEARCH(this time) for the ingredient panel and look at the ingredients responsible for NO !!!!!

HINT : It ain't L-arg/AAKG or CEE

:Facepalm:

Proprietary Blend BETAph™ 3504mg **
Arginine Alpha-Ketoglutarate (A-AKG), Beta-Alanine, Creatine Ethyl Ester (CEE), Citrulline Malate, L-Arginine, L-Norvaline


So the stuff that actually works (for a pump) in that blend are 4th in the list and 6th in the list. So, 2 out of 6 things in the blend are worth anything (for a pump). BA (isn't for a pump)


Why should the consumer pay for 3 other things that are worthless junk?

[Lucky_ROA]

If arginine doesn't increase NO, doesn't affect hemodynamics and doesn't increase insulin which could indirectly give you a pump, it's not given anyone a pump.

You think people don't know how it does not translates into muscle hypertrophy ? RIGHT. THE CONSUMER LIKES what HE FEELS on L-Arg./AAKG.

[Lucky_ROA]

:Facepalm:

Proprietary Blend BETAph™ 3504mg **
Arginine Alpha-Ketoglutarate (A-AKG), Beta-Alanine, Creatine Ethyl Ester (CEE), Citrulline Malate, L-Arginine, L-Norvaline


So the stuff that actually works (for a pump) in that blend are 4th in the list and 6th in the list. So, 2 out of 6 things in the blend are worth anything (for a pump). BA (isn't for a pump)


Why should the consumer pay for 3 other things that are worthless junk?

When did I say BA is for pumps ? lol C.M is junk ? LOL L-norvaline is junk ?!?!?!?!? Please explain I would love to hear what you have to say on this one.

This my last post PLG.

P.S so much for your last post :P way to stick to your word

[-MSR9889-]

Hey TMAC, so you rated NO-Beta a 4/10 based on taste.....I didn't know tablets had a taste. This is why ratings like yours get deleted.

:Facepalm:

Proprietary Blend BETAph™ 3504mg **
Arginine Alpha-Ketoglutarate (A-AKG), Beta-Alanine, Creatine Ethyl Ester (CEE), Citrulline Malate, L-Arginine, L-Norvaline


So the stuff that actually works (for a pump) in that blend are 4th in the list and 6th in the list. So, 2 out of 6 things in the blend are worth anything (for a pump). BA (isn't for a pump)


Why should the consumer pay for 3 other things that are worthless junk?

havent you seen the bulging biceps challenge? 10 sets for your biceps in 2 minutes and no beta will give you the best pump ever

[rhizome]

Google PHARMACODYNAMICS OF L-ARGININE. And see what/how l-arginine works once inside the body.

Arginase is upregulated which means more arginine is metabolized. But the arm chair interpreters and broscientists cherry pick their data and overlook the reality of integrated metabolism

[Lucky_ROA]

Arginase is upregulated which means more arginine is metabolized. But the arm chair interpreters and broscientists cherry pick their data and overlook the reality of integrated metabolism

Sorry I value scientific data over your broscience

LOL @ cherry picking

[jordansrt]

This is going no where, Double t Please stay out of this thread

[TMac26]

When did I say BA is for pumps ? lol C.M is junk ? LOL L-norvaline is junk ?!?!?!?!? Please explain I would love to hear what you have to say on this one.




P.S so much for your last post :P way to stick to your word

I figured it was ok as long as it wasn't personal, which you seem to enjoy making sure it is.


I said TWO of the ingredients in the product are worth ANYTHING (CM and L-Norv). I ASKED WHY the CONSUMER should PAY for the OTHER THREE ingredients which SCIENCE has said ARE JUNK.

So why should a consumer pay for L-Arg, AAKG, and CEE which are all confirmed by Science to be a waste of space?

[Lucky_ROA]

I figured it was ok as long as it wasn't personal, which you seem to enjoy making sure it is.


I said TWO of the ingredients in the product are worth ANYTHING (CM and L-Norv). I ASKED WHY the CONSUMER should PAY for the OTHER THREE ingredients which SCIENCE has said ARE JUNK.

So why should a consumer pay for L-Arg, AAKG, and CEE which are all confirmed by Science to be a waste of space?

Nope, not making it personal T It's funny how people turn quickly on their word !!! My mistake on reading your post wrong, I am replying to simultaneous posts at once so cut me some slack

L-Arginine is NOT deemed junk by science. Do you know of its benefits ? That is why I asked you to google PHARMACODYNAMICS OF L-ARGININE ! And see what the benefits are Not a lengthy read, as a matter of fact it presents two sides of the coin !

The consumer pays for it because he likes it !!! CEE is NOT confirmed to be a waste of space. The comparision of CEE with other forms is ANOTHER TOPIC/DISCUSSION. However if your going to say that CEE is enitrely junk and is a waste of space is JUNK that is not true; for that refer to all the negative data against CEE which makes valid points on the absorption aswell.

[TMac26]

Nope, not making it personal T It's funny how people turn quickly on their word !!! My mistake on reading your post wrong, I am replying to simultaneous posts at once so cut me some slack

L-Arginine is NOT deemed junk by science. Do you know of its benefits ? That is why I asked you to google PHARMACODYNAMICS OF L-ARGININE ! And see what the benefits are Not a lengthy read, as a matter of fact it presents two sides of the coin !

The consumer pays for it because he likes it !!! CEE is NOT confirmed to be a waste of space. The comparision of CEE with other forms is ANOTHER TOPIC/DISCUSSION. However if your going to say that CEE entirely is JUNK that is not true; for that refer to all the negative data against CEE.

Looked it up. Found this on L-Arg.

ntravenous or dietary (oral) administration of relatively large doses of L-arginine has been shown to result in enhanced NO formation in subjects with impaired endothelial function at baseline. In several controlled clinical trials, long-term administration of L-arginine has been shown to improve the symptoms of cardiovascular disease. However, in other trials L-arginine was not beneficial, and in a recent study, the authors reported higher mortality of subjects receiving L-arginine than those receiving placebo.

Journal Article; Research Support, Non-U.S. Gov't; Review
Title: The Journal of nutrition Volume: 137 ISSN: 0022-3166 ISO Abbreviation: J. Nutr. Publication Date: 2007 Jun

http://www.biomedsearch.com/nih/phar.../17513442.html

Key word there, IMPAIRED ENDOTHELIAL FUNCTION. IN OTHER TRIALS IT WAS NOT BENEFICIAL.


Here is one on CEE.

Furthermore, it appears that the skeletal muscle uptake of creatine ethyl ester uptake was not significant enough to increase skeletal muscle creatine levels without significant degradation to creatinine occurring.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2649889/

[Lucky_ROA]

Looked it up. Found this on L-Arg.

ntravenous or dietary (oral) administration of relatively large doses of L-arginine has been shown to result in enhanced NO formation in subjects with impaired endothelial function at baseline. In several controlled clinical trials, long-term administration of L-arginine has been shown to improve the symptoms of cardiovascular disease. However, in other trials L-arginine was not beneficial, and in a recent study, the authors reported higher mortality of subjects receiving L-arginine than those receiving placebo.

Journal Article; Research Support, Non-U.S. Gov't; Review
Title: The Journal of nutrition Volume: 137 ISSN: 0022-3166 ISO Abbreviation: J. Nutr. Publication Date: 2007 Jun

http://www.biomedsearch.com/nih/phar.../17513442.html

Key word there, IMPAIRED ENDOTHELIAL FUNCTION. IN OTHER TRIALS IT WAS NOT BENEFICIAL.


Here is one on CEE.

Furthermore, it appears that the skeletal muscle uptake of creatine ethyl ester uptake was not significant enough to increase skeletal muscle creatine levels without significant degradation to creatinine occurring.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2649889/

Did you read the references made to the l-arg's second study and searched it on PUBMED and have you seen the dosage used in that study ?

*FACEPALM* After you do that please refer to THIS from that study :

Doses of 3-8 g/d appear to be safe and not to cause acute pharmacologic effects in humans.

After reading that study did you realize how l-arginine reduces asymmetric dimethylarginine and normalizes the ratio ? LOL and you consider it junk ?

Do you realize the potential disadvantage of asymmetric dimethylarginine over actual Nitric Oxide in the body ?

Here is one on CEE.

Furthermore, it appears that the skeletal muscle uptake of creatine ethyl ester uptake was not significant enough to increase skeletal muscle creatine levels without significant degradation to creatinine occurring.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2649889/

It is a pre-workout product. You know how it is designed to be used in conjunction with CreaDyl ?

HOWEVER with the topic in hand considering how recent studies showed the amount of creatine necessary; NO Beta should have no problem delivering.

[rhizome]

After reading that study did you realize how l-arginine reduces asymmetric dimethylarginine and normalizes the ratio ? LOL and you consider it junk ?

IN people with ENDOTHELIAL DYSFUNCTION. More Arginine = More Arginase! Google it

[MBSowards]

Wow at thread.

[TMac26]

Did you read the references made to the l-arg's second study and searched it on PUBMED and have you seen the dosage used in that study ?

*FACEPALM* After you do that please refer to THIS from that study :


After reading that study did you realize how l-arginine reduces asymmetric dimethylarginine and normalizes the ratio ? LOL and you consider it junk ?

Do you realize the potential disadvantage of asymmetric dimethylarginine over actual Nitric Oxide in the body ?




It is a pre-workout product. You know how it is designed to be used in conjunction with CreaDyl ?

HOWEVER with the topic in hand considering how recent studies showed the amount of creatine necessary; NO Beta should have no problem delivering.

1. How does ANY of that have to do with Exogenous L-Arg supplementation? I posted a study on that, but I'll post again.


1: J Nutr Biochem. 2008 Aug 15. [Epub ahead of print]
Liu TH, Wu CL, Chiang CW, Lo YW, Tseng HF, Chang CK.
No effect of short-term arginine supplementation on nitric oxide production, metabolism and performance in intermittent exercise in athletes.

Arginine supplementation has been shown to alleviate endothelial dysfunction and improve exercise performance through increasing nitric oxide production in patients with cardiopulmonary diseases. In addition, arginine supplementation could decrease accumulations of lactate and ammonia, metabolites involved in development of muscular fatigue. The aim of this study was to investigate the effect of short-term arginine supplementation on performance in intermittent anaerobic exercise and the underlying mechanism in well-trained male athletes. Ten elite male college judo athletes participated with a randomized crossover, placebo-controlled design. The subjects consumed 6 g/day arginine (ARG trial) or placebo (CON trial) for 3 days then performed an intermittent anaerobic exercise test on a cycle ergometer. Blood samples were collected before supplementation, before and during exercise and 0, 3, 6, 10, 30 and 60 min after exercise. ARG trial had significantly higher arginine concentrations than CON trial at the same time point before, during and after exercise. In both trials, nitrate and nitrite concentration was significantly higher during and 6 min after exercise comparing to the basal concentration. The increase in nitrate and nitrite concentration during exercise in both trials was parallel to the increase in plasma citrulline concentrations. There was no significant difference between the 2 trials in plasma nitrate and nitrite, lactate and ammonia concentrations and peak and average power in the exercise. The results of this study suggested that short-term arginine supplementation had no effect on nitric oxide production, lactate and ammonia metabolism and performance in intermittent anaerobic exercise in well-trained male athletes.


In HEALTHY HUMANS it doesn't do squat.


2. Don't even try to defend CEE.


It is concluded that creatine ethyl ester is a pronutrient for creatinine rather than creatine under all physiological conditions encountered during transit through the various tissues, thus no ergogenic effect is to be expected from supplementation.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19660433

This study indicates that the half-life of CEE in blood is on the order of one minute, suggesting that CEE may hydrolyze too quickly to reach muscle cells in its ester form.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19524547

conclusion, when compared to creatine monohydrate, creatine ethyl ester was not as effective at increasing serum and muscle creatine levels or in improving body composition, muscle mass, strength, and power. Therefore, the improvements in these variables can most likely be attributed to the training protocol itself, rather than the supplementation regimen.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19228401

[Lucky_ROA]

IN people with ENDOTHELIAL DYSFUNCTION. More Arginine = More Arginase! Google it

Homeboy completely missed the point of the statement ! Off topic but nonethless YOU should be googling and tell me do people with endothelial dysnfunction benefit from other *n.o* therapy ? Apparently no............

BACK TO TOPIC.

[rhizome]

Homeboy completely missed the point of the statement ! Off topic but nonethless YOU should be googling and tell me do people with endothelial dysnfunction benefit from other *n.o* therapy ? Apparently no............

BACK TO TOPIC.

We ARE talking about HEALTHY HUMANS here Quit trying to change the topic with irrelevant data

[Starkk]

Extremely high doses of niacin can also cause niacin maculopathy, a thickening of the macula and retina, which leads to blurred vision and blindness.

I think this explains a lot of what I'm seeing here.

[gymrat53]

It has to do with the fact that the ingredients in question are being delegitimized for their benefits are being blown out of the scene whereas the ingredients known for NO are not even brought up that ARE actually included in NO Beta

LOL c'mon stephanie we have been through this before, you have no idea what under-dosed MEANS to begin with Otherwise you wouldn't be stating ill opinions ignorantly.

You wonder why the ingredients are delegitimized when you admit you put in an ingredient for feeling instead of muscle growth. To an uneducated feeling a pump means its working. cool.

You think people don't know how it does not translates into muscle hypertrophy ? RIGHT. THE CONSUMER LIKES what HE FEELS on L-Arg./AAKG.

Do you realize the potential disadvantage of asymmetric dimethylarginine over actual Nitric Oxide in the body ?


It is a pre-workout product. You know how it is designed to be used in conjunction with CreaDyl ?

HOWEVER with the topic in hand considering how recent studies showed the amount of creatine necessary; NO Beta should have no problem delivering.

So the AAKG isn't in NO Beta for an increase in nitric oxide?

Its a preworkout so what. Doesn't mean it can't contain proven dosages of ingredients. You say it isn't underdosed yet should be stacked with Creadyl. And the creatine in NO Beta is good enough on its own? I find that hard to believe with 6 ingredients tiny 3500 mg prop blend where the first ingredient is aakg.

Widely accepted doses or what was used in studies

Creatine 5 grams
Beta Alanine 3.2 grams +
Citrulline 6-10 grams
Norvaline 100mg per serving is the is dose I see used in most products Ice +, Slin Sane,
ect.

No way your product comes close to those doses.

[iForce Dave]

Are you serious ? Have you been reading previous posts ? AAKG is in there because it provides a PUMP !!!!!! The market/consumer DEMANDS the PUMP they get from L-Arginine/AAKG.

awesome

I wanted the lulz and bb.com delivered

[maxrx]

I'm finally understanding the dynamic of forum interaction - I don't want to see one more DTS REP in this or threads like it. Their is nothing constructive about anything in this or other threads like it. You learn a lot about people watching the way they disagree particularly when their is a lot of distance between them. Enough!

[Surive123]

I'm finally understanding the dynamic of forum interaction - I don't want to see one more DTS REP in this or threads like it. Their is nothing constructive about anything in this or other threads like it. You learn a lot about people watching the way they disagree particularly when their is a lot of distance between them. Enough!

Perhaps not constructive towards your sales - however, in general, steering people away from under dosed products with less than ideal ingredients can be deemed constructive to the general population.

Also, it is "there" not "their"

[WIULifter]

Perhaps not constructive towards your sales - however, in general, steering people away from under dosed products with less than ideal ingredients can be deemed constructive to the general population.

Also, it is "there" not "their"

grammer champ?

[Starkk]

I'm finally understanding the dynamic of forum interaction - I don't want to see one more DTS REP in this or threads like it. Their is nothing constructive about anything in this or other threads like it. You learn a lot about people watching the way they disagree particularly when their is a lot of distance between them. Enough!

Wait, you don't want Double-T reps in threads about Double-T products?

[Joe D]

Wait, you don't want Double-T reps in threads about Double-T products?

not when science is being discussed.

[INGENIUM]

in on 5 star thread.