When CAN Cops Shoot a Perp?

[US_Ranger]

They were. One cop had been on the force for less than a year, the other for two. They were relative newbies. And clearly in the wrong for shooting him 20 times. 20!!

That's why there's such an uproar about it all.

Shoot the guy in the leg/arm. Once. Not 20 times on a suspicion that he may have a gun.

You're normally a decent poster but you're 100% retarded here.

You've obviously never fired a weapon. Until you do so, you need to stop having an opinion on shooting someone in the arm/leg or any other nonsense (srs)

[KurtMussell]

as someone living in Sacramento and my family has had all of our vehicles broken into or damaged multiple times im glad scums gonna scum ****s out of control over here not super uncommon see people sprinting through the court through my yard and over a wall that leads to apartments

You should buy some bear traps.

[PeaceWithin]

They were. One cop had been on the force for less than a year, the other for two. They were relative newbies. And clearly in the wrong for shooting him 20 times. 20!!

That's why there's such an uproar about it all.

Shoot the guy in the leg/arm. Once. Not 20 times on a suspicion that he may have a gun.

You lost me at "shoot him in the arm/leg"

Just LOL

[fleeceitout]

They were. One cop had been on the force for less than a year, the other for two. They were relative newbies. And clearly in the wrong for shooting him 20 times. 20!!

That's why there's such an uproar about it all.

Shoot the guy in the leg/arm. Once. Not 20 times on a suspicion that he may have a gun.

You think getting shot once in the arm or leg is going to stop someone firing on you? Here’s a novel idea, don’t run from police, ignore commands & then advance towards them when they’ve got their weapons drawn on you.

Some might say this is Darwinism at work.

[Iczer]

At what point do they just make it standard procedure for uncooperative parties to be tased. Put an end to the situation and most likely end the situation without a death. I say most likely because there is no guarantee that the perp will not die from the shock. But these type of situations go on for so long, trying to talk down guys who will not listen. Or use non lethal rounds more frequently. Get to the point where you know you're going to be hurt and not killed for not complying and force it.

In the end, if you comply and you're not doing anything wrong. Then you have nothing to worry about.

[MuzzieChik786]

You're normally a decent poster but you're 100% retarded here.

You've obviously never fired a weapon. Until you do so, you need to stop having an opinion on shooting someone in the arm/leg or any other nonsense (srs)

You lost me at "shoot him in the arm/leg"

Just LOL

It's correct, I don't have experience with guns.

But in this case, we have to look at the other side too. That kid was shot 20 times. If you watch the video, they start shooting shortly after commanding him to freeze. The argument from the protester's side is that they did not allow enough time for Stephon to comply before opening fire. And once they did - they shot him 20 times. 20!

That IS excessive.

Here’s a novel idea, don’t run from police, ignore commands & then advance towards them when they’ve got their weapons drawn on you.

I agree. But the argument from the other side is that Stephon did not know who was barking commands at him because of the light from the flashlights blinding him. They're arguing that the cops never identified themselves as the cops and because he couldn't see them - he reacted as he did (ignoring the commands).

Again, it's a he said / she said situation until the investigation is complete.

The other thing that is baffling the police chief himself is WHY was the audio turned off after the shooting. You can see it in the video where the cop instructs his partner to mute the video. Why was the video muted?

[meenman83]

You know how hard it is to hit someone in the leg or arm? LOL it is why people are trained center mass.

It is Sac town/Stockton not much to see there as it has and will always be the arm pit of California. Every time I went there as a kid I was horrified by the degenerates that lived there and chit I saw.

[arn710]

They repeatedly told him to stop & show his hands, which he ignored, then they shot him when he started advancing towards them holding a black object in his hand which later turned out to be a cell.

If you’re peering around a corner at someone who you expect is armed & has continually ignored you commands to show is hands, what are you going to do if he starts advancing towards you? Let him just walk up on you, or maybe risk getting shot in the head? I know I’m putting him down.

Why would you have an expectation this guy is armed? Legitimately asking. Nothing I saw claimed the guy was armed

I understand your perspective. I just don't agree

These situations are tough. Some of the public has this expectation that the cops are always going to make the right decision in a split second and that's realistically never going to happen.

This guy likely should not have been shot. Maybe the cops that shot him need to be punished. That doesn't take any of the responsibility away from this idiot that put himself in that situation to begin with

[fleeceitout]

Why would you have an expectation this guy is armed? Legitimately asking. Nothing I saw claimed the guy was armed

I understand your perspective. I just don't agree

These situations are tough. Some of the public has this expectation that the cops are always going to make the right decision in a split second and that's realistically never going to happen.

This guy likely should not have been shot. Maybe the cops that shot him need to be punished. That doesn't take any of the responsibility away from this idiot that put himself in that situation to begin with

Because he ignored commands to show his hands prior, was holding an object (which turned out to be his cellphone) and they’re in a sketchy ass neighbourhood where violence is prevalent. I’m assuming the worst if I’m in that situation & not waiting to find out the hard way.

The reports I saw said the police believe he was armed.

[Cleveland33]

I’m assuming the worst if I’m in that situation & not waiting to find out the hard way.

This is important as this is what is taught to the police.

They are taught to err on the side of their and the public's safety, not the alleged perp.
There have been cops that have given the person the benefit of the doubt or hesitated to shoot and paid the price for it.

[Cleveland33]

They were. One cop had been on the force for less than a year, the other for two. They were relative newbies. And clearly in the wrong for shooting him 20 times. 20!!

That's why there's such an uproar about it all.

Shoot the guy in the leg/arm. Once. Not 20 times on a suspicion that he may have a gun.

There is no shoot to injure for police, they are taught - for a reason - to shoot until the threat is neutralized. An injured person can very quickly raise their arm and shoot back. And being shot most often does not equal instant death, it takes time to bleed out. They aren't supposed to shoot once. So 20 shots across three officers is only 7 each.

[Cleveland33]

At what point do they just make it standard procedure for uncooperative parties to be tased. Put an end to the situation and most likely end the situation without a death. I say most likely because there is no guarantee that the perp will not die from the shock. But these type of situations go on for so long, trying to talk down guys who will not listen. Or use non lethal rounds more frequently. Get to the point where you know you're going to be hurt and not killed for not complying and force it.

In the end, if you comply and you're not doing anything wrong. Then you have nothing to worry about.

Tazers have a limited range and are not always effective. There was a shooting a few weeks ago where the guy was tazed multiple times and walked right through it - and he wasn't on PCP.

[Dave22reborn]

I've been following this closely (I own property in Sacramento).

It's a massive mess! Here's a link to an article on what's happening there today:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/stephon...ay-2018-03-27/

Cliffs:

- dude's brother interrupted city council meeting, causing them to adjourn early because the protesters were banging on the windows and yelling/threatening
- protesters blocked people from going into a basketball game at the arena shouting "either you join our protest, or you don't go in"
- car of lady smashed as she confronted protesters blocking the road

It's absolutely crazy.

My problem with all this: the people aren't even letting the police complete their investigation before acting like monkeys in the streets.

Might want to edit your post, don't know if it's because you're foreign, but you want to get rid of "monkey," we all know what you mean though.

[Dave22reborn]

It's correct, I don't have experience with guns.

But in this case, we have to look at the other side too. That kid was shot 20 times. If you watch the video, they start shooting shortly after commanding him to freeze. The argument from the protester's side is that they did not allow enough time for Stephon to comply before opening fire. And once they did - they shot him 20 times. 20!

That IS excessive.



I agree. But the argument from the other side is that Stephon did not know who was barking commands at him because of the light from the flashlights blinding him. They're arguing that the cops never identified themselves as the cops and because he couldn't see them - he reacted as he did (ignoring the commands).

Again, it's a he said / she said situation until the investigation is complete.

The other thing that is baffling the police chief himself is WHY was the audio turned off after the shooting. You can see it in the video where the cop instructs his partner to mute the video. Why was the video muted?

If three officers fired half of their clips, then that would amount to over 20 shots.

There was a job where a domestic offender hid under his sheets, and the three cops entered the room to talk to him. He started firing, and they emptied their entire magazine into him. He was shot 48 times.

Is 48 times too much?

[Dave22reborn]

You lost me at "shoot him in the arm/leg"

Just LOL

It's okay, many people share her opinion. Also, don't expect people to be crack shots in split second situations. This isn't Fallout 3.

[Gayle1]

A bails bondsman can shoot you in the back while you climb out a window

[CaliSuperSport]

It's correct, I don't have experience with guns.

But in this case, we have to look at the other side too. That kid was shot 20 times. If you watch the video, they start shooting shortly after commanding him to freeze. The argument from the protester's side is that they did not allow enough time for Stephon to comply before opening fire. And once they did - they shot him 20 times. 20!

I believe the police fired 20 times but certainly didn't hit him with each bullet. However the victim being "shot 20 times" is making the rounds on the news as a tagline.

When you're under stress, your sympathetic nervous system goes into overload and hand shaking or trembling will ruin your accuracy even at close ranges. There's videos of police getting in short range gunfights and both parties missing each other completely for this reason, as well as the target's movement or obstacles. Hitting any given point is hard enough on a paper target in a quiet, air conditioned gun range when you're calm. Trying to hit certain body parts (or anything at all) is waaaay more difficult under physical and mental stress in a dimly lit area.

To commit property damage, and then evade police in dark yards/alleyways while holding an object... well that's just gambling for the worst tbh. If you're chasing a hostile, I can totally understand how you could mistake a cell phone for the top of a gun slide in a dark area. I think the Alton Sterling shooting was much more controversial than this. But Black Lives Matter decided to turn their gaze onto it and voila, national headlines. Also that charade at the Kings arena.

Relevant:

@ 0:54

[bigcat3655]

It's correct, I don't have experience with guns.

But in this case, we have to look at the other side too. That kid was shot 20 times. If you watch the video, they start shooting shortly after commanding him to freeze. The argument from the protester's side is that they did not allow enough time for Stephon to comply before opening fire. And once they did - they shot him 20 times. 20!

That IS excessive.



I agree. But the argument from the other side is that Stephon did not know who was barking commands at him because of the light from the flashlights blinding him. They're arguing that the cops never identified themselves as the cops and because he couldn't see them - he reacted as he did (ignoring the commands).

Again, it's a he said / she said situation until the investigation is complete.

The other thing that is baffling the police chief himself is WHY was the audio turned off after the shooting. You can see it in the video where the cop instructs his partner to mute the video. Why was the video muted?

I gotta agree, normally you're a well thought poster, but you're talking out your rear end on this one.

This idiot displayed violent behavior in smashing a car window. When confronted by police with guns drawn, he comes at them, completely irrational behavior. He approaches said officers with guns pointed at him with an object in his hand, stupid decision number 3. Officers get killed hesitating in these situations and these officers didn't hesitate.

At what point would you say he got himself into a body bag instead of blaming the police? Each side has things they needed to do to go home that day. Unfortunately the guy decided to do none of those things. You say 20 shots is excessive, how many were shot by each officer? After how many was he still advancing? You say it's because the officers were too new to do the right thing. I think they did exactly the right thing. They responded appropriately to the bad choices the guy made.

As for that video of the activist going through the police training, that's awesome that he had the stones to try to see things from the other viewpoint. Something all of the armchair quarterbacks (muzziechik) should consider doing.

[Iczer]

Tazers have a limited range and are not always effective. There was a shooting a few weeks ago where the guy was tazed multiple times and walked right through it - and he wasn't on PCP.

I'm with you there. Just brainstorming out loud.

[repos]

we definitely should develop some technology so that cops can know if a person has a gun or not, this would put a dent in these crazy killings of cellphone holders. Maybe develop something non-lethal but stronger than a tazer as well.

There doesn't seem to be a market for making policing safer aside from go-pro's on these dudes chest. Possibly to encourage innovation govt offer research grants/awards.

[Cleveland33]

we definitely should develop some technology so that cops can know if a person has a gun or not, this would put a dent in these crazy killings of cellphone holders. Maybe develop something non-lethal but stronger than a tazer as well.

There doesn't seem to be a market for making policing safer aside from go-pro's on these dudes chest. Possibly to encourage innovation govt offer research grants/awards.

Why? Why shouldn't we just encourage the idea of a) don't run from the cops and b) if you are caught - drop what's in your hands and put them up

[ichBinBerliner]

So, a guy smashes car windshields, runs through backyards to get away, it’s dark, and he has a cell phone in his hand. He gets shot by the cops and the family screams murder and riots and protests break out (Sacramento).

How many here would take the chance that he really didn’t have a gun? He was unarmed’ moo the media. The grandma is crying, “They murdered my baby!”

Seriously...what the farking fack?

They should be shot when getting their ID out of the car. it might be a gun.

[arn710]

Why does it matter how many times someone was shot?

All shooters are taught to shoot until the threat is neutralized. More often than not that's going to result in death. Its pretty reasonable to expect death anytime a trigger is pulled. The amount of times its pulled seems irrelevant

[CaliSuperSport]

we definitely should develop some technology so that cops can know if a person has a gun or not, this would put a dent in these crazy killings of cellphone holders. Maybe develop something non-lethal but stronger than a tazer as well.

There doesn't seem to be a market for making policing safer aside from go-pro's on these dudes chest. Possibly to encourage innovation govt offer research grants/awards.

Outside of Iron Man's suit equipped with J.A.R.V.I.S., I'm not sure what they can do.

[ichBinBerliner]

Why? Why shouldn't we just encourage the idea of a) don't run from the cops and b) if you are caught - drop what's in your hands and put them up

Problem is cops kill you no matter what you do. Follow orders? Get shot. Dont have a gun? Get shot.

[Cleveland33]

Problem is cops kill you no matter what you do. Follow orders? Get shot. Dont have a gun? Get shot.

Sometimes, yes. But not common by any means.

[CaliSuperSport]

They should be shot when getting their ID out of the car. it might be a gun.

This might be the first post you've made that isn't potato. Yes that cop is a genuine retard. Protocol of piss.

Problem is cops kill you no matter what you do. Follow orders? Get shot. Dont have a gun? Get shot.

And that one too: "DON'T FUK UP OR WE'LL SHOOT YOU! CROSS YOUR LEGS AND CRAWL TOWARDS ME!" That cop was stupid af.

[fleeceitout]

Problem is cops kill you no matter what you do. Follow orders? Get shot. Dont have a gun? Get shot.

Find an outlier, push it as the norm.

Libtard “debating” 101.

[MuzzieChik786]

Might want to edit your post, don't know if it's because you're foreign, but you want to get rid of "monkey," we all know what you mean though.

Huh? O_o

If three officers fired half of their clips, then that would amount to over 20 shots.

There was a job where a domestic offender hid under his sheets, and the three cops entered the room to talk to him. He started firing, and they emptied their entire magazine into him. He was shot 48 times.

Is 48 times too much?

Again, I'm not an expert at guns, so please excuse any information relevant to that.

I gotta agree, normally you're a well thought poster, but you're talking out your rear end on this one.

This idiot displayed violent behavior in smashing a car window. When confronted by police with guns drawn, he comes at them, completely irrational behavior. He approaches said officers with guns pointed at him with an object in his hand, stupid decision number 3. Officers get killed hesitating in these situations and these officers didn't hesitate.

I think you're misinformed - I'm not a Stephon Clark advocate. I'm only presenting what I've heard from the other side.

At what point would you say he got himself into a body bag instead of blaming the police?

I'm not blaming the police. I'm merely stating what the other side is presenting as the basis for all the protests.

Each side has things they needed to do to go home that day. Unfortunately the guy decided to do none of those things. You say 20 shots is excessive, how many were shot by each officer? After how many was he still advancing? You say it's because the officers were too new to do the right thing. I think they did exactly the right thing. They responded appropriately to the bad choices the guy made.

Again, it's debatable. Watch the video again, the clip shows the officers commanding him to stop with flashlights pointed in his face.

The argument, again, from the other side can be broken down into these three points:

1) Clark was never running from anyone - he was trying to get into his own grandparents house and the police mis-judged him for being some perp breaking into cars earlier that night.
2) Because of the flashlights pointed in his face, Clark was unable to discern who was commanding him to do things because the cops never identified themselves.
3) Cops did not allow sufficient time for Clark to comply before he was shot.
4) Emptying the clips was excessive.

AGAIN - these are not my views. These are the arguments presented by the protesters. I don't agree with their perception of the problem as I stated above.

As for that video of the activist going through the police training, that's awesome that he had the stones to try to see things from the other viewpoint. Something all of the armchair quarterbacks (muzziechik) should consider doing.

Eh? If you can debate in a respectful manner - I'll just start ignoring you.

I believe the police fired 20 times but certainly didn't hit him with each bullet. However the victim being "shot 20 times" is making the rounds on the news as a tagline.

When you're under stress, your sympathetic nervous system goes into overload and hand shaking or trembling will ruin your accuracy even at close ranges. There's videos of police getting in short range gunfights and both parties missing each other completely for this reason, as well as the target's movement or obstacles. Hitting any given point is hard enough on a paper target in a quiet, air conditioned gun range when you're calm. Trying to hit certain body parts (or anything at all) is waaaay more difficult under physical and mental stress in a dimly lit area.

To commit property damage, and then evade police in dark yards/alleyways while holding an object... well that's just gambling for the worst tbh. If you're chasing a hostile, I can totally understand how you could mistake a cell phone for the top of a gun slide in a dark area. I think the Alton Sterling shooting was much more controversial than this. But Black Lives Matter decided to turn their gaze onto it and voila, national headlines. Also that charade at the Kings arena.

Relevant:

@ 0:54

Ah, a local Sacramentan.

Tell us - do you think the protests are justified?

IMO, every person who is misbehaving (vandalism, obstruction, etc.) in the streets under the guise of "protesting injustice" should be arrested.

[repos]

Why? Why shouldn't we just encourage the idea of a) don't run from the cops and b) if you are caught - drop what's in your hands and put them up

yah educational videos will fix it