Gay children?

[Brackneyc]

But anyways, this thread was serious. What would you guys over 35+ do if your child/adult child did come out and tell you they were gay?

Only those who have been there can answer that.

[gottobeme]

How would you handle a child being gay?

Same as would with a child who's heterosexual - with love.

[pharmamarketer]

I would not care.

[GuyJin]

IMO, you have it backwards. The man who "identifies as a woman" is pretending to be something they are not in order to match their body with their image of appropriate gender roles. If you are a man with feminine traits, then why not just accept it? Why pretend to be something you are not (a woman)? Acceptance of who you are seems (to me) like a healthier course of action then chopping off body parts and undergoing a lifetime of questionable hormone treatments.

--
Actually, I think you have it the wrong way. The transgendered woman, in his mind, is not pretending. They are simply identifying themselves as females. Not all gay guys (from my very limited understanding) identify that way. They are men who happen to find other men attractive in the physical and psychological sense, but they have no wish to become women. A transgendered person, OTOH, in my opinion (layperson's view) sees themselves as the opposite sex.

Your other statement of a man who has feminine traits accepting their 'role' (for lack of a better term) again begs the question: Who is this acceptable to? To society at large which from time immemorial has shunned that which is different in a sexual and (sometimes) racial/religious sense, or to the individual who is forced to live that way?

As for surgery and hormone treatments, to you it may seem unwise and unnecessary, but not for the person who willingly accepts the risks--and there ARE some very real risks associated with that treatment--of becoming what they wish to be.

[tobymax123]

I'd like to provide a detailed reply to your post because you touched on a number of different things, but alas, I am on my phone and will therefore comment on just the quoted portion. I think you may be misunderstanding what I am saying. I don't think anybody should pretend to be something they are not, but I have yet to hear a satisfying answer about what it means to "feel like a woman".....other than simply identifying with societal male/female roles. So IMO, you have it backwards. The man who "identifies as a woman" is pretending to be something they are not in order to match their body with their image of appropriate gender roles. If you are a man with feminine traits, then why not just accept it? Why pretend to be something you are not (a woman)? Acceptance of who you are seems (to me) like a healthier course of action then chopping off body parts and undergoing a lifetime of questionable hormone treatments.

There are all kinds.

Johnny Weir is a perfect example of someone you describe; a man with feminine traits who just accepts it and doesn't pretend to be anything else. Did you see him doing coverage of the Kentucky Derby? Wow, what a hoot. I got a kick out of him being unabashedly who he is. But he (apparently) sees himself and identifies as a man, and as far as I know has not expressed any desire to be a woman.

On the other hand, the one person I actually know who made the surgical transition from male to female was not very feminine as a man. Now, after 19 years as a woman, she still is not very feminine. She tries, oh how she tries with the makeup and clothes, but she just doesn't have a fashion sense, and she does not walk or move in a typical feminine manner. But she is infinitely more happy now and has a wonderful joyous sensibility about life.

I can't explain or understand the whys/whats/hows of the whole transgender issue, and that's fine. Since I'm not transgender I don't need to understand it. I just need to take transgender people at their word that this is the way they are. Personally, as a gay man, I have ZERO desire to be, or dress like, or act like a woman.

[Karl_Hungus]

--
Actually, I think you have it the wrong way. The transgendered woman, in his mind, is not pretending. They are simply identifying themselves as females.
.

Not being disrespectful ... but I don't think you are following the crux of my argument. What does it MEAN to "feel like a woman"? Or "identify as a female"? Aside from your societally-induced perception of what a woman is? I don't think you can divorce the two ...and if you can, I'd like to hear how they are different. Given that masculine/feminine feelings are widely represented in both sexes, and there are no traits exclusive to the other -- what is the difference between "feeling like a man" vs "feeling like a woman"? This is why I think the whole "transgendered" thing is a little flakey....and shouldn't really be lumped in with being gay or lesbian.

I think of it as being in the same category as "body integrity identity disorder", where one manifestation is to perceive oneself as being without limbs. They identify themselves as amputees. They feel like their arms and legs are not part of them, and they have a strong desire to cut them off. One solution is to indulge them, and allow them to cut off all of their limbs in order to bring their body in line with their mental image of themselves . They may be significantly happier if allowed to do that ... but I still view it as a psychological problem whose first course of action is psychological treatment rather than surgery.

On the other hand, the one person I actually know who made the surgical transition from male to female was not very feminine as a man. Now, after 19 years as a woman, she still is not very feminine. She tries, oh how she tries with the makeup and clothes, but she just doesn't have a fashion sense, and she does not walk or move in a typical feminine manner. But she is infinitely more happy now and has a wonderful joyous sensibility about life.

^^ But this also kind of makes my point. He wants to affect characteristics associated with a "woman". He WANTS to be feminine, but just isn't very good at it. What defines being a woman other than an identification with traditionally female traits?

[Oceanside]

What defines being a woman other than an identification with traditionally female traits?

a vagina

[Karl_Hungus]

a vagina

^^ This...lol. But what makes a man? Is it being prepared to do the right thing ... no matter the cost?

[superman713]

It has nothing to do with "pop culture". You can try to sideline the question and belittle those who are gay all you want, but "pop culture" has nothing to do with it. I don't watch television, nor do I stay up to date on the latest trash/music that comes out of Hollywood, but here I am, gay as can be, and it can't be attributed to this "pop culture" you speak of. You're doing no one any good comparing things as you have.

Wait... You come to the ov35 and ask a question. I'm assuming you understand that you are going to receive responses that will align with your thinking and some that differ. No where in his post did he "belittle" anyone.

Obviously this is a topic that you hold close because you are in fact gay. Understandable. I myself would not love my children any less for any choice they make in life or for their sexual identity. I think the consensus is that we would love them the same either way.

As far as the civil rights thing... How is it equality if somebody beats the **** out of me its assault, if somebody beats the **** out of you its a hate crime and hold a stiffer penalty? That's not equal rights, that is total inequality. You can have a gay pride parade and it is celebrated, If there was a straight Christian pride parade it would be labeled intolerant and hateful. I think what he was trying to say about the "pop culture" aspect is that IT IS being brought to the forefront and is being exploited by media and entertainment. Gay men in movies and TV "pop culture" are represented by a cookie cutter personification of a flamboyant diva. I own a high end modern furniture store and work closely with gay men quite often... They are not represented in media correctly by any stretch of the imagination.

[GuyJin]

Not being disrespectful ... but I don't think you are following the crux of my argument. What does it MEAN to "feel like a woman"? Or "identify as a female"? Aside from your societally-induced perception of what a woman is? I don't think you can divorce the two ...and if you can, I'd like to hear how they are different. Given that masculine/feminine feelings are widely represented in both sexes, and there are no traits exclusive to the other -- what is the difference between "feeling like a man" vs "feeling like a woman"? This is why I think the whole "transgendered" thing is a little flakey....and shouldn't really be lumped in with being gay or lesbian.

I think of it as being in the same category as "body integrity identity disorder", where one manifestation is to perceive oneself as being without limbs. They identify themselves as amputees. They feel like their arms and legs are not part of them, and they have a strong desire to cut them off. One solution is to indulge them, and allow them to cut off all of their limbs in order to bring their body in line with their mental image of themselves . They may be significantly happier if allowed to do that ... but I still view it as a psychological problem whose first course of action is psychological treatment rather than surgery.

---
To me, identifying oneself as a female is not only a mindset based on feminine attributes, but also a psychological state of 'being' for lack of a better word. In the case of a transgendered man, he is physically born a man with all the male attributes--penis, testicles, etc.--but has the mindset of a woman in that he believes he IS a woman. Many times (according to the literature and the testimonies of those who are transgendered) they have often said they were "stuck/born into the wrong body" or "trapped in the wrong body".

I realize this doesn't quite answer your question. I'd have to agree with you insofar as "feeling like a woman" and "identifying oneself as a woman (or man)" is largely a social construct. Where we differ is your claim that this is a mental illness in the manner of BIID. I don't think it is, per se. Could it be a chemical imbalance in the brain making the transgendered think as they do? Perhaps. Could it be a structural change in the brain, something which happened during gestation? This is one theory and falls in line with my earlier statement of them being wired differently. Honestly, I can't tell you, but to me, if you start with the premise that transgenderism is a mental illnesss, then this is a very slippery slope to head toward.

With respect to your earlier post, you mentioned mutilation. I suggested that feminine breast augmentation, liposuction, piercings in the clitoris (or penis for men) could also be seen as a form of mutilation. BIID is certainly indicative of that, but I might argue that some surgical procedures...even being addicted to surgery ("surgical addiction") is just as injurious and demonstrates a destructive mindset as opposed to transgender surgery which can be viewed as having a more constructive mindset. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on that.

My original thoughts on all this are unchanged. Why should someone who identifies as a member of the opposite sex be forced to live a lie and not be allowed to undergo a procedure which makes them happier as individuals? Again, from all the literature I've read, transgendered women (far more than transgendered men, if the stats are right) suffer more socially when forced to live as men, effeminate men. Perhaps in your mind, they should be satisfied. But you are not they and you (and I) don't know how they truly feel. Should we be deciding for them? It's very easy for anyone to say "Yeah, let 'em dress like girls, let 'em believe they are, just don't come near me with that kinda thing" while shunting them to one side...but as for them achieving personal happiness...not a concern.

Sorry for the long post. Have to go out now to work, got my thoughts down as much as possible.

[Karl_Hungus]

---
To me, identifying oneself as a female is not only a mindset based on feminine attributes, but also a psychological state of 'being' for lack of a better word. In the case of a transgendered man, he is physically born a man with all the male attributes--penis, testicles, etc.--but has the mindset of a woman in that he believes he IS a woman.

But what does the bolded mean apart from social constructs?

I realize this doesn't quite answer your question. I'd have to agree with you insofar as "feeling like a woman" and "identifying oneself as a woman (or man)" is largely a social construct. Where we differ is your claim that this is a mental illness in the manner of BIID. I don't think it is, per se.

How are they different?

With respect to your earlier post, you mentioned mutilation. I suggested that feminine breast augmentation, liposuction, piercings in the clitoris (or penis for men) could also be seen as a form of mutilation. BIID is certainly indicative of that, but I might argue that some surgical procedures...even being addicted to surgery ("surgical addiction") is just as injurious and demonstrates a destructive mindset as opposed to transgender surgery which can be viewed as having a more constructive mindset. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on that.

Well -- Taken to an extreme (e.g. extreme body modification), I believe it is mutilation -- But where the above "enhancements" differ is that you aren't destroying functional parts of the human body in order to feel "complete". I think there is something psychologically wrong if you need to chop off arms, legs, or penises to be at peace with your body.

My original thoughts on all this are unchanged. Why should someone who identifies as a member of the opposite sex be forced to live a lie and not be allowed to undergo a procedure which makes them happier as individuals?

I didn't say any of that -- I just disagree that they are "living a lie"....any more than a person with BIID is "living a lie" if they don't chop off their arms and legs. I believe in both cases, there are similar underlying psychological issues. I'm not saying ban them from having surgery ... I just believe it to be a psychological issue and therefore not in the same ballpark as being gay/lesbian.

[lemeseethem]

If my son grows up gay I'll still love him but if he's going to be suckin dink in college then he will pay his own rent.


I wouldn't pay my son's rent if all he was doing was fukkin sloots si no biggie lol

[JediRN]

An interesting case study in gender identity that's semi-relavent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John/Joan_case

cliffs
John is an identical twin
John has a botched circumcism.
John has his junk surgically modified to be a girl.
john is renamed Joan and raised as a girl and not told the truth.
Joan realizes in "her" teens that something is terribly wrong. she doesn't feel like a girl. Thinks she should be a guy.

Conclusion: People are born who they are and although "nurture" plays a role "nature" prevails.

[GuyJin]

An interesting case study in gender identity that's semi-relavent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John/Joan_case

cliffs
John is an identical twin
John has a botched circumcism.
John has his junk surgically modified to be a girl.
john is renamed Joan and raised as a girl and not told the truth.
Joan realizes in "her" teens that something is terribly wrong. she doesn't feel like a girl. Thinks she should be a guy.

Conclusion: People are born who they are and although "nurture" plays a role "nature" prevails.

--

In this case, David Reimer, the person who had the botched circumcision and was designated for sexual reassignment surgery, was, IMHO, used as a pawn by the doctor. The operation happened at the age of seven months. He was then forced by the doctor whom I believe was dead wrong to live a life as a gender he did NOT identify with. This was a tragedy for all concerned. And I'd agree. This is a case of nature being fukked with. A pity he got improper care...and I wouldn't even call it care.

[GuyJin]

But what does the bolded mean apart from social constructs?
ME--It means what it says it means. By that, he identifies with acting like a woman in the sense of how women act in society. He sees his gender as that of being a woman. To the transgendered woman, my opinion, FWIW, is that whether it's a social construct or not, he believes that he is female. (Poor choice of words...I plead lack of sleep).


How are they different?
ME.--If you're talking about comparing BIID, you're talking about, I believe, a genuine psychological malady which involves destruction of bodily tissue that would make one fully functional (i.e. moving around) in everyday life. In the case of gender reassignment surgery, there is no deliberate loss of functionality. True, the penis is cut off and the testicles are removed in the case of many (not all) transgendered women, but that doesn't limit them in what they can do in today's world or getting around. BIID, taken to extremes, can and will limit mobility.


Well -- Taken to an extreme (e.g. extreme body modification), I believe it is mutilation -- But where the above "enhancements" differ is that you aren't destroying functional parts of the human body in order to feel "complete". I think there is something psychologically wrong if you need to chop off arms, legs, or penises to be at peace with your body.

ME--There is, to me, a huge difference in cutting off your limbs to feel better about your life as opposed to undergoing gender reassignment surgery. The key word here is "psychological". Whereas those with BIID are genuinely in need of counseling IMO, those with gender dysmorphia need counseling to ascertain whether they truly fit the criteria for hormonal treatment and surgery (should they wish it) and whether they are truly suffering from gender identity issues. I think many people here are channeling Buffalo Bill (not saying you are one of them) and somehow associating that fictional character with those who are truly in distress over their inability to be perceived as they wish to be perceived.


I didn't say any of that -- I just disagree that they are "living a lie"....any more than a person with BIID is "living a lie" if they don't chop off their arms and legs. I believe in both cases, there are similar underlying psychological issues. I'm not saying ban them from having surgery ... I just believe it to be a psychological issue and therefore not in the same ballpark as being gay/lesbian.

---ME. Fair enough. Let's agree to disagree on this.

---Karl, see above, please.

[Demonchylde]

Been a while since I posted. (Work, Gym, eating...rinse repeat...little time) I have been lurking.

Sorry...I have to go into religion here because it's the only argument that I see as a common protest to homosexuality. I will keep it more based on fact, and this is not an attack.

I have been on FB and other media as part of my job recently and I see a polarization between people on this topic. Religion being a very common argument. However religion has changed and evolved in almost all but this specific topic. Even then the bible does a poor job of stating anything about it, and Jesus never mentioned it once.

My personal take is that they are your children. Your flesh and blood. if I felt a persons sexuality was a choice then obviously arguments could be made, but since I do believe it is genetic, and not environmental or learned behaviour, I would have to say that I would love my child regardless.

The religious argument I hear constantly seems to only apply with gay people, but lets not forget that Women were a target as well. There are a lot of very outspoken religious women out there, who if they were following their own religion would not be able to speak at all. In true and fair fact, in some religions today female infanticide is still practiced because religious sects prefer a son. While not likening female infanticide to someone loving their gay child, one needs to look at the aspect of abandonment. If I choose to ignore or disown my gay son or daughter, I am essentially killing that relationship based on how they were born. But there is a lot to be said about abandoning your child due to sexuality or as mentioned gender.

There was a time when women or men might be disowned for being in interracial marriages/relationships, and yet now we see that as socially acceptable and deplorable when others attack said union. There are those that would still attack it, and make it vocal. Now interracial relationships are very common. You were born your race, and you could not control it, and you can't control who you fall in love with and choose to marry.

The younger generation for the most part, who have access to social media, apps on their phone, and more importantly information beyond what they are taught by the older generation, will eventually make up their mind. Concepts like interracial dating, women's rights and gay rights will eventually be exposed to them, and acceptance of these topics will grow and eventually become acceptable. Eventually this will not be a topic. Our kids...kids will love their kids regardless of their orientation.

So would I love my gay kid? Yes! I would also probably also know if they were.

They are my flesh and blood, they have good role models, excellent education, and amazing people in their life. If they happen to be gay, then I know it was not a choice or a phase. I know that it is honestly who they are, and as long as they are happy, able to take care of themselves, and healthy, then I will support them to ensure that they are even more happier. Anything that you love so much right from the womb is just something I can't fathom not loving after it tells me who it might love in the future.

Peace!

D

[jthm]

I think children have a hard time distinguishing a romantic relationship from a friendship, but the media and agenda is pushing them in a certain direction which forces them to identify. If it were my son, Id spend more time with him and help guide him in the right direction.

[jtroster]

I have two gay children. My love for them has not changed from when they were born.

[demike]

I don't have kids but I hope to one day when I find the right girl. I just want my kids to be born safe and healthy and for the mom (future soul mate I hope) to also be safe and healthy. I am an Uncle and I'd do anything in my power for my nieces so I can only imagine how I will feel about my own kids someday. I wouldn't care if they tell me they are gay as long as they are happy. I rather them be gay and happy than be unhappy.

[Oceanside]

it's better to find out that your kid is gay when he's younger than when he's older, because when you find out he's gay when he's younger, there's still time to look on the internet and find him an exorcist or maybe even sign him up for pop warner football (or something)- Oceanside

[onmyway01]

Wait... You come to the ov35 and ask a question. I'm assuming you understand that you are going to receive responses that will align with your thinking and some that differ. No where in his post did he "belittle" anyone.

Obviously this is a topic that you hold close because you are in fact gay. Understandable. I myself would not love my children any less for any choice they make in life or for their sexual identity. I think the consensus is that we would love them the same either way.

As far as the civil rights thing... How is it equality if somebody beats the **** out of me its assault, if somebody beats the **** out of you its a hate crime and hold a stiffer penalty? That's not equal rights, that is total inequality. You can have a gay pride parade and it is celebrated, If there was a straight Christian pride parade it would be labeled intolerant and hateful. I think what he was trying to say about the "pop culture" aspect is that IT IS being brought to the forefront and is being exploited by media and entertainment. Gay men in movies and TV "pop culture" are represented by a cookie cutter personification of a flamboyant diva. I own a high end modern furniture store and work closely with gay men quite often... They are not represented in media correctly by any stretch of the imagination.

I'll agree with your first point, I do hold a different perspective since I myself have had to suffer through this. But as to the bold, you are not pointing out causes pushed because people are gay, simply causes pushed by the liberal wing in American politics. I don't think you should face stiffer penalties because you attacked a gay man verses an old women. I don't think you should be able to sue your employer over their choosing to terminate you based on being gay, or anything else other than poor work ethic. And I don't think the "pop culture" you speak of represents gay people any more than it does heteros. Everyone has an agenda, and the left in this county has manipulated the gays the same way the right has the religious. Don't confuse a political movement with individuals they claim to represent.

[onmyway01]

Been a while since I posted. (Work, Gym, eating...rinse repeat...little time) I have been lurking.

Sorry...I have to go into religion here because it's the only argument that I see as a common protest to homosexuality. I will keep it more based on fact, and this is not an attack.

I have been on FB and other media as part of my job recently and I see a polarization between people on this topic. Religion being a very common argument. However religion has changed and evolved in almost all but this specific topic. Even then the bible does a poor job of stating anything about it, and Jesus never mentioned it once.

My personal take is that they are your children. Your flesh and blood. if I felt a persons sexuality was a choice then obviously arguments could be made, but since I do believe it is genetic, and not environmental or learned behaviour, I would have to say that I would love my child regardless.

The religious argument I hear constantly seems to only apply with gay people, but lets not forget that Women were a target as well. There are a lot of very outspoken religious women out there, who if they were following their own religion would not be able to speak at all. In true and fair fact, in some religions today female infanticide is still practiced because religious sects prefer a son. While not likening female infanticide to someone loving their gay child, one needs to look at the aspect of abandonment. If I choose to ignore or disown my gay son or daughter, I am essentially killing that relationship based on how they were born. But there is a lot to be said about abandoning your child due to sexuality or as mentioned gender.

There was a time when women or men might be disowned for being in interracial marriages/relationships, and yet now we see that as socially acceptable and deplorable when others attack said union. There are those that would still attack it, and make it vocal. Now interracial relationships are very common. You were born your race, and you could not control it, and you can't control who you fall in love with and choose to marry.

The younger generation for the most part, who have access to social media, apps on their phone, and more importantly information beyond what they are taught by the older generation, will eventually make up their mind. Concepts like interracial dating, women's rights and gay rights will eventually be exposed to them, and acceptance of these topics will grow and eventually become acceptable. Eventually this will not be a topic. Our kids...kids will love their kids regardless of their orientation.

So would I love my gay kid? Yes! I would also probably also know if they were.

They are my flesh and blood, they have good role models, excellent education, and amazing people in their life. If they happen to be gay, then I know it was not a choice or a phase. I know that it is honestly who they are, and as long as they are happy, able to take care of themselves, and healthy, then I will support them to ensure that they are even more happier. Anything that you love so much right from the womb is just something I can't fathom not loving after it tells me who it might love in the future.

Peace!

D

reps for an excellent and well thought out post!

[onmyway01]

An interesting case study in gender identity that's semi-relavent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John/Joan_case

cliffs
John is an identical twin
John has a botched circumcism.
John has his junk surgically modified to be a girl.
john is renamed Joan and raised as a girl and not told the truth.
Joan realizes in "her" teens that something is terribly wrong. she doesn't feel like a girl. Thinks she should be a guy.

Conclusion: People are born who they are and although "nurture" plays a role "nature" prevails.

I always find it interesting, if not weird, how a discussion about the rights of people who are attracted to the same sex inevitably turns into a discussion about people who want to be the opposite sex, as if they had anything in common.

[Oceanside]

I always find it interesting, if not weird, how a discussion about the rights of people who are attracted to the same sex inevitably turns into a discussion about people who want to be the opposite sex, as if they had anything in common.

I got an idea there "sunshine" !

why don't you take your freaking drama to a therapist where it belongs

[so-tex]

I got an idea there "sunshine" !

why don't you take your freaking drama to a therapist where it belongs

Or sign up for a pop Warner football league.

[Fishman15]

Or sign up for a pop Warner football league.

welcome back tex! I think OS needs to get in touch with his softer side...

[so-tex]

welcome back tex! I think OS needs to get in touch with his softer side...

Thanks. OS doesn't have a soft side.

[GuyJin]

Thanks. OS doesn't have a soft side.

---

Only when he's mooning the camera and sending noodz to CBB.

[onmyway01]

I got an idea there "sunshine" !

why don't you take your freaking drama to a therapist where it belongs

Why the hostility sir? Did I say something that upset you? If so, that was not my intention and I apologize.

[onmyway01]

Or sign up for a pop Warner football league.

Sometimes sarcasm is called for, other times it is not.