Is Satan really the bad guy?

[TNCEKM]

Yes he does he rejects anyone who follows Christ

He works extra hard to get them...no reject them.

God rejects no one people reject God, Satan gives them no chance but to serve him and his purposes.

And God isn't doing the same? Do as I say, or be an outcast of heaven?

Again God rejects no one they reject him.

He rejects anyone who is not a slave to him.

Adam and Eve picked this path themselves not God

Kind of a ****ty deal.

See that nice juice apple over there! Yeah, that one! The best one in the whoooole garden...MmmMmM...looks tasty, right? Well....YOU CAN'T EAT IT! Why? Well...because I said so. That's why. Its uhh....a test...yeah, a test. I'm not going to test you two on how well you get along, and how you treat each other, but rather, if you eat that apple I told you not to, all who follow you will be subject to disease, phamon, sin and all kinds of horrible things.

<-- This is why I reject the literal Bible. It makes no damn sense. I don't reject God, I reject the bible, the quran, etc.

...
Again the Egyptians picked this path not God.

The first borns didn't have much say in it did they? Not a fair trade, IMO. If your father did something to someone, and that person told them in advance that if he did that, he'd kill YOU if you were ever born, would that really be fair? your father did something that got you murdered at birth...mmm...nope..not fair.

[JBDW]

16 And he said, When ye do the office of a midwife to the Hebrew women, and see them upon the stools; if it be a son, then ye shall kill him: but if it be a daughter, then she shall live.

A little unfair to the newborns, don't you think? What about not visiting the sins of the father upon his children?

And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go. 22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn: 23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.

Care to explain the part in bold to me? I read this before and I never really understood it, because it sounds to me as if God was simply setting Pharoah up to get his ass kicked, by directly interfering.

One last thing, the Lord's prayer goes '..and lead us not into temptation'. Is this not somehow contradictory to the story of Adam and Eve?

But fair enough, thanks for reminding me of the warning part.

[majortrepak]

A little unfair to the newborns, don't you think? What about not visiting the sins of the father upon his children?

This verse is what the Egyptians did to the Jews long before Moses was born.


(the jews grew in numbers in Egypt and the Egyptians went back on the deal they had with the jews in genesis and decide to enslave them. The Jews continue to grow in number and strength so the Egyptians make there lives harder and kill the jewish newborn males.
So the jews went through some very bad times before God decided to take the drastic measures he did.
Note the Egyptians decided as a nation to do these things and they were punished as a nation. )

Exodus 1
7 And the children of Israel were fruitful, and increased abundantly, and multiplied, and waxed exceeding mighty; and the land was filled with them. 8 Now there arose up a new king over Egypt, which knew not Joseph. 9 And he said unto his people, Behold, the people of the children of Israel are more and mightier than we: 10 Come on, let us deal wisely with them; lest they multiply, and it come to pass, that, when there falleth out any war, they join also unto our enemies, and fight against us, and so get them up out of the land. 11 Therefore they did set over them taskmasters to afflict them with their burdens. And they built for Pharaoh treasure cities, Pithom and Raamses. 12 But the more they afflicted them, the more they multiplied and grew. And they were grieved because of the children of Israel. 13 And the Egyptians made the children of Israel to serve with rigour: 14 And they made their lives bitter with hard bondage, in morter, and in brick, and in all manner of service in the field: all their service, wherein they made them serve, was with rigour. 15 And the king of Egypt spake to the Hebrew midwives, of which the name of the one was Shiphrah, and the name of the other Puah: 16 And he said, When ye do the office of a midwife to the Hebrew women, and see them upon the stools; if it be a son, then ye shall kill him: but if it be a daughter, then she shall live.

Care to explain the part in bold to me? I read this before and I never really understood it, because it sounds to me as if God was simply setting Pharaoh up to get his ass kicked, by directly interfering.

God knew that Pharaoh wouldn't let the Jews go but I don't believe he made Pharaoh do or not do anything

One last thing, the Lord's prayer goes '..and lead us not into temptation'. Is this not somehow contradictory to the story of Adam and Eve?

What is found in the new or Old Testament does not apply to the Garden of Eden. There was a completely different covenant with God and humans then.

[majortrepak]

He works extra hard to get them...not reject them.

No, he rejects them untill they turn to him

And God isn't doing the same? Do as I say, or be an outcast of heaven?

No, its not you don't have to be Gods slave, here is an example of how the devil enslaves people.
Mark 5
2 And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit, 3 Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains: 4 Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him. 5 And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones (sounds like its fun to follow satan). 6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him, 7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not. 8 For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit. 9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many. 10 And he besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country. 11 Now there was there nigh unto the mountains a great herd of swine feeding. 12 And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them. 13 And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand and were choked in the sea. 14 And they that fed the swine fled, and told it in the city, and in the country. And they went out to see what it was that was done. 15 And they come to Jesus, and see him that was possessed with the devil, and had the legion, sitting, and clothed, and in his right mind: and they were afraid.(sounds like Jesus made a real slave out of him huh)

He rejects anyone who is not a slave to him.

see above

Kind of a ****ty deal.

See that nice juice apple over there! Yeah, that one! The best one in the whoooole garden...MmmMmM...looks tasty, right? Well....YOU CAN'T EAT IT! Why? Well...because I said so. That's why. Its uhh....a test...yeah, a test. I'm not going to test you two on how well you get along, and how you treat each other, but rather, if you eat that apple I told you not to, all who follow you will be subject to disease, phamon, sin and all kinds of horrible things.

Genesis 2
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. (evil God telling them death will enter the world if they eat the fruit)
Genesis 3
16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. 17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;(They eat the fruit and death enters the world WHAT thats not fair he didn't give fair warning oh wait he did)

The first borns didn't have much say in it did they? Not a fair trade, IMO. If your father did something to someone, and that person told them in advance that if he did that, he'd kill YOU if you were ever born, would that really be fair? your father did something that got you murdered at birth...mmm...nope..not fair.

They Egyptians enslaved the jews
Then they took extra measures to make their lives harder
More measures
Then the Egyptians decide to kill every male newborn of the Jews

Sounds like more then fair punshment of the Egyptains to me

[mp0646]

i think everyone here is making good points and this topic is definitely one in which each person needs to make their own individual conclusion. The one thing that i am disagreement is that everyone seems to be sounding like God does not want us to go to heaven. the other thing i am getting from this thread is that God is a very strict and harsh God which i do not agree with. I have studied this topic at the college level for some time now and i recently went to a lecture by an author in which he said "i believe God has very low standards, and will take practically anyone". i agree; God created us in his image and likeness, he would do everything in his power for us to get to Heaven and only until we reject God will we go to hell. Ultimately the fate of our afterlives lies in our hands and what we do here on earth throughout our lives. The other thing i would like to say is the Bible was written in such a way that it was supposed to shock us and make us think and i believe it is doing a pretty good job considering all of the posts in this thread!

[Mrs Grudge]

Quick question here,

did God say he'd kill the Pharoahs first born

or the EYGPTIANS first born?


I'm pretty sure it's the 2nd one, but that's a pretty sickening thought and I hope i'm wrong.

[TNCEKM]

Quick question here,

did God say he'd kill the Pharoahs first born

or the EYGPTIANS first born?


I'm pretty sure it's the 2nd one, but that's a pretty sickening thought and I hope i'm wrong.

The "Egyptians" could be "Egyptian's" in reference to a person, but its still a sickening though.

And, IMO, God didn't say this....some douche bag wrote it "for God", while not being representative "of God".

It was written by man there for it is............."of man". Not very Godly, eh?

[TNCEKM]

No, he rejects them untill they turn to him

Isn't that what I said? Turning to him, by the Bible and the Quran's standard, means being a slave to him. IF not in words, the actions are blatantly similar to slavery.

No, its not you don't have to be Gods slave, here is an example of how the devil enslaves people.
Mark 5
2 And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit, 3 Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains: 4 Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him. 5 And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones (sounds like its fun to follow satan).

As I said earlier, this was written by a follower of God, by the hand of an imperfect "man", so how can you take any of it as truth? As far as we know, the Devil didn't make said person do what he did.

6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him, 7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not. 8 For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit. 9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many. 10 And he besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country. 11 Now there was there nigh unto the mountains a great herd of swine feeding. 12 And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them. 13 And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand and were choked in the sea. 14 And they that fed the swine fled, and told it in the city, and in the country. And they went out to see what it was that was done. 15 And they come to Jesus, and see him that was possessed with the devil, and had the legion, sitting, and clothed, and in his right mind: and they were afraid.(sounds like Jesus made a real slave out of him huh)

Jesus is a slave, too.

His father turned his back on Jesus did he not?

see above

Genesis 2
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. (evil God telling them death will enter the world if they eat the fruit)

Yeah...isn't that what i said?

He teased them with the apple...if she wasn't supposed to eat it, why put the tree there?

Genesis 3
16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. 17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;(They eat the fruit and death enters the world WHAT thats not fair he didn't give fair warning oh wait he did)

Oh..and our loving God is sexist, too, eh?

They Egyptians enslaved the jews
Then they took extra measures to make their lives harder
More measures
Then the Egyptians decide to kill every male newborn of the Jews

Sounds like more then fair punshment of the Egyptains to me

It would be fair for the Jews to do to the Egyptians...an eye for an eye..i've got no problem with it. BUT, God shouldn't have killed new born children.

[bryan361]

I say "the Bible declares" because I personally don't believe a book written by man is representative of Gods will. If God wanted, he would write his own damn book. Think about it guys...why would he have the power to create this universe, yet, leave the writing of His book to men? Its non-sensical.

G-d did write his own book. G-d spoke and Moses took dictation.

Care to explain the part in bold to me? I read this before and I never really understood it, because it sounds to me as if God was simply setting Pharoah up to get his ass kicked, by directly interfering.

Upto that point the Israelites, during their slavery, didn't know of G-d. Moses didn't even know of G-d until G-d spoke to him through the burning bush. G-d wanted pharaoh to not let the Israelites go instantly because he wanted them (the Israelites) to witness His power. Had pharaoh simply let the Israelites go it would appear that pharaoh was benificient and let the people go out of kindness of his heart and the Israelites wouldn't have believed G-d had anything to do with it. G-d tells to the Israelites to remember what they witnessed in Egypt and to teach it to their children.

[AntonToo]

What if you spent your intellectual energy on something productive.

Are theists in proper position to say that? I kid I kid.

[AntonToo]

G-d did write his own book. G-d spoke and Moses took dictation.

You're contradicting youself - did God write it - or Moses?

And why does god need to write anything at all? - if he wanted to give us a book - he'd give us a book - a proper one.

[TNCEKM]

You're contradicting youself - did God write it - or Moses?

And why does god need to write anything at all? - if he wanted to give us a book - he'd give us a book - a proper one.

Exactly!

It makes no sense that a god who can create this entire universe would need moses to write his book--obviously a god who could do that is an incredibly knowledgeable and intelligent and logical god.

[Jackadise]

Crack dealers don't turn anyone away either THEY MUST BE GREAT PEOPLE!

[JBDW]

Upto that point the Israelites, during their slavery, didn't know of G-d. Moses didn't even know of G-d until G-d spoke to him through the burning bush. G-d wanted pharaoh to not let the Israelites go instantly because he wanted them (the Israelites) to witness His power. Had pharaoh simply let the Israelites go it would appear that pharaoh was benificient and let the people go out of kindness of his heart and the Israelites wouldn't have believed G-d had anything to do with it. G-d tells to the Israelites to remember what they witnessed in Egypt and to teach it to their children.

So he was setting up the Pharoah to be the fall guy. Is that right? Sounds pretty manipulative to me...

[JBDW]

This verse is what the Egyptians did to the Jews long before Moses was born.


(the jews grew in numbers in Egypt and the Egyptians went back on the deal they had with the jews in genesis and decide to enslave them. The Jews continue to grow in number and strength so the Egyptians make there lives harder and kill the jewish newborn males.
So the jews went through some very bad times before God decided to take the drastic measures he did.
Note the Egyptians decided as a nation to do these things and they were punished as a nation. )

Exodus 1
7 And the children of Israel were fruitful, and increased abundantly, and multiplied, and waxed exceeding mighty; and the land was filled with them. 8 Now there arose up a new king over Egypt, which knew not Joseph. 9 And he said unto his people, Behold, the people of the children of Israel are more and mightier than we: 10 Come on, let us deal wisely with them; lest they multiply, and it come to pass, that, when there falleth out any war, they join also unto our enemies, and fight against us, and so get them up out of the land. 11 Therefore they did set over them taskmasters to afflict them with their burdens. And they built for Pharaoh treasure cities, Pithom and Raamses. 12 But the more they afflicted them, the more they multiplied and grew. And they were grieved because of the children of Israel. 13 And the Egyptians made the children of Israel to serve with rigour: 14 And they made their lives bitter with hard bondage, in morter, and in brick, and in all manner of service in the field: all their service, wherein they made them serve, was with rigour. 15 And the king of Egypt spake to the Hebrew midwives, of which the name of the one was Shiphrah, and the name of the other Puah: 16 And he said, When ye do the office of a midwife to the Hebrew women, and see them upon the stools; if it be a son, then ye shall kill him: but if it be a daughter, then she shall live.

Two wrongs don't make a right. Why the hell do the newborns need to come into the picture?

God knew that Pharaoh wouldn't let the Jews go but I don't believe he made Pharaoh do or not do anything

Isn't it explicitly stated in the verse that he would harden Pharoah's heart?

[IceDragon]

Two wrongs don't make a right. Why the hell do the newborns need to come into the picture?

You won't get an answer on that, never. Basically, they can't defend something that's written in black and white. Would be nice if someone did try to answer it though.

Isn't it explicitly stated in the verse that he would harden Pharoah's heart?

That's really starting to sound like a set-up, kind of like Adam and Eve - set-up deliberately so that he would get the outcome he wanted and punish them accordingly.

I'm really starting to dislike the bible, you know? Sorry if I'm sounding an @sswipe here, but it's true. Everything I'm hearing about it, with the scriptures and everything included from that, not just MY interpretation of them is making me think more and more that this isn't a kind, benevolent god. Sad as that is.

[JBDW]

You won't get an answer on that, never. Basically, they can't defend something that's written in black and white. Would be nice if someone did try to answer it though.

Yeah...I'm hoping to get one...

That's really starting to sound like a set-up, kind of like Adam and Eve - set-up deliberately so that he would get the outcome he wanted and punish them accordingly.

That's what it sounds like to me too...

[Derock]

God:

- Rejects people from entering heaven if they don't believe in him

- Made woman suffer by giving them the pain and suffering of child birth, as a result of seeking knowledge by eating the fruit (knowledge must be badddd)

- Ordered man to labor by tilling the fields after the whole fruit fiasco

- Created a global flood that killed millions and millions of people and animals

- Killed all first born Egyptian children

- Condones rape and killing of women throughout the bible

- Approves of slavery thoughout the bible

- Sent plagues to kill people

- Kills those who worship the wrong god or those who hate him



.... Maybe god was the evil one who was trying to fool people from reaching satan??????

I'm not one to usually get involved these arguements as they usually lead nowhere. I'll just add some views to what has already been mentioned.

First, people reject God, not the other way around. If you're not in heaven, it is because you rejected God. Now I'm not the one to take the belief that every single person who dies and isn't a Christian is in Hell. No doubt, many would agree never hearing of Jesus, or simply failing to be raised in a family that taught you "the truth" is guaranteed to send you to Hell. If a person chooses to not be with God by turning away from Him, being the loving God He is, He grants their wish.

By the way, this isn't much different our society. Some say God should never have put us in the situation. Yet, what do we do on earth? We tell people they should or shouldn't do something for their own good. They may not always understand it, but if they disobey the laws or rules, we punish them in order to protect them and others so they know better. In order for us to truly love God, we have to have free will in order to choose that love. We as humans in general create whatever suffering or problems occur. This whole thing about "how bad God is" is an attempt to take the blame from ourselves and place it on God.

Second, God can kill who He wants. If he is the author of life, certainly He should be able to do as He wishes with His creation. I take it the people being punished probably knew better or else they wouldn't be punished. God isn't the type to severely punish someone for doing something they did NOT know was wrong.

I'm not sure where you get that God condones raping and killing other than possibly some twisted misinterpretation.

The whole Adam and Eve thing is simple. Whether it was a matter of literally eating an apple or not, the point is they turned away from God. That is the message. Its simple. They chose against God and that is the "moral" of the story. They made that choice for themselves and they knew better. Yet, despite this, God in His love still does what He can for people and gives them a chance. No matter how many times we fail, we can still repent and God will take us in. There is no single person in this world that loving, so if God is the evil one, than we all must be really evil.

Finally, I've heard some comments about how great Hell must be and how boring Heaven is, therefore, Hell is probably the better place. I understand this is coming largely from people who don't usually believe the two places, and some may use this just to stir up the religious. So, I'm just gonna hope these comments aren't serious. Heaven and Hell aren't earthly places with earthly activities. It won't be rock music and parties in Hell and church music and singing hymns in Heaven in the way we think of these on earth. It's either eternal happiness or eternal pain. If parties make you happy then heaven seems like the better place. If on the other hand you associate parties with suffering, then yes, Hell would seem like a big party.

[AntonToo]

First, people reject God, not the other way around. If you're not in heaven, it is because you rejected God.

But the problem is - we are having difficulty telling God from satan - if God is someone/thing that sends souls to eternal suffering simply for being rational and fully sanctions slavery - then he/it could as well be Satan.

[IceDragon]

But the problem is - we are having difficulty telling God from satan - if God is someone/thing that sends souls to eternal suffering simply for being rational and fully sanctions slavery - then he/it could as well be Satan.

And that leads right back to Christianity's pagan roots...god and satan being two halves of the same coin and thus the same entity.

[drstrangepimp]

Satan:

- Doesn't reject anyone from joining him

- Welcomes the people that god rejects, giving them a chance

- Accepts kind and loving people (people of different beliefs and atheists)

- Doesn't request that people bow down to him

- Has never killed anyone for not believing in him


God:

- Rejects people from entering heaven if they don't believe in him

- Made woman suffer by giving them the pain and suffering of child birth, as a result of seeking knowledge by eating the fruit (knowledge must be badddd)

- Ordered man to labor by tilling the fields after the whole fruit fiasco

- Created a global flood that killed millions and millions of people and animals

- Killed all first born Egyptian children

- Condones rape and killing of women throughout the bible

- Approves of slavery thoughout the bible

- Sent plagues to kill people

- Kills those who worship the wrong god or those who hate him



.... Maybe god was the evil one who was trying to fool people from reaching satan??????

That's the kind of thinking that gets you kicked out of the garden.

[drstrangepimp]

Adam and Eve were warned what would happened if they partake of the tree. I think G-d was being compassionate by not killing them instantly and just start all over again.

Substitute the word "Sadaam Hussein" for "God" and "Shiites" for "Adam and Eve" in the statement above.

[drstrangepimp]

Again God rejects no one they reject him.

Substitute the word "Castro" for God and you get the picture.

[Health&vigor]

Two wrongs don't make a right. Why the hell do the newborns need to come into the picture?

Isn't it explicitly stated in the verse that he would harden Pharoah's heart?

You won't get an answer on that, never. Basically, they can't defend something that's written in black and white. Would be nice if someone did try to answer it though.

Pharoah was not obeying the Lord, also the people who did obey the Lord, death “passed over” and spared the newborns lives.

Yes it is explicity stated but the Bible also states:
Matthew 5:30
And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell

Each verse has a specific meaning and can not always being taken at face value. That is where all the confusion comes into play.

That's really starting to sound like a set-up, kind of like Adam and Eve - set-up deliberately so that he would get the outcome he wanted and punish them accordingly.

God does not want robots, that is why the forbidden fruit existed.
Also I believe that if Adam & Eve owned up to their mistake and took responsibility for it God would not have punished them.

Eve, blamed the serpent:
“ AND THE LORD GOD SAID UNTO THE WOMAN, WHAT IS THIS THAT THOU HAST DONE? AND THE WOMAN SAID, THE SERPENT BEGUILED (or deceived) ME, AND I DID EAT-Gen 3:13. The Lord God asked the woman, WHAT IS THIS THAT THOU HAST DONE? The woman did not answer His question. She did not confess that she had tempted her husband and caused him to sin. She did not confess that she had eaten fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. She seemed to have little or no concern for her guilt, but rather, she wanted to shift the blame. She did not seem to have godly sorrow for what she had done. Rather, without admitting what she had done, she made an excuse and tried to justify herself. She immediately blamed the serpent, saying that he had BEGUILED (or deceived) her. The woman was afraid. Perhaps, she thought, by blaming the serpent, she might escape the judgment of God. Did she confess her sin, or fall down before a merciful Lord God and ask for forgiveness? Did she repent? She did none of these things. She did not want to take responsibility for what she had done. She ate of the fruit and then tempted her husband, a servant of the Lord God, to sin. Even today people may say, "The devil, he made me do it." We need to remember Lk 18:13,14-AND THE PUBLICAN, STANDING AFAR OFF, WOULD NOT LIFT UP SO MUCH AS HIS EYES UNTO HEAVEN, BUT SMOTE (or beat) UPON HIS BREAST, SAYING, GOD BE MERCIFUL TO ME A SINNER. I TELL YOU, THIS MAN WENT DOWN TO HIS HOUSE JUSTIFIED.”

Adam blamed the women:
“ AND THE LORD GOD CALLED UNTO ADAM, AND SAID UNTO HIM, WHERE ART THOU? AND HE (Adam) SAID, I HEARD THY VOICE IN THE GARDEN, AND I WAS AFRAID, BECAUSE I WAS NAKED; AND I HID MYSELF-Gen 3:9,10. Adam did not say he was afraid, because he disobeyed God. Adam was afraid, because he was naked. He was naked, because he had disobeyed God. Here is the beginning of bondage to fear. Here is a picture of Adam hiding from God but God seeking for Adam. Here is the beginning of man hiding from God because of sin, but a loving God seeking for man. Adam did not immediately admit he sinned. He only admitted he was naked, which was the result of his sin.
AND HE (the Lord God) SAID, WHO TOLD THEE THAT THOU WAST NAKED? HAST THOU EATEN OF THE TREE, WHEREOF I COMMANDED THEE THAT THOU SHOULDEST NOT EAT?-Gen 3:11. The Lord God first addresses the man. He asks the man two questions. WHO TOLD THEE THAT THOU WAST NAKED? Adam either chose not to answer the first question, or the Lord God continued on with the second question, coupling them together. The first question leaves only two possibilities. Either someone had told Adam that he was naked, or he had disobeyed God. The second question was, HAST THOU EATEN OF THE TREE, WHEREOF I COMMANDED THEE THAT THOU SHOULDEST NOT EAT? Adam needed to be confronted with his sin. Note the directness of the Lord God’s question, "HAST THOU EATEN?" As part of the question, the Lord God also confronted Adam directly with His command not to eat of the tree by, saying, "WHEREOF I COMMANDED THEE THAT THOU SHOULDEST NOT EAT?"
Adam initially should not have hid. At this point, he should have immediately confessed his sin with godly sorrow and without excuse. He should have sought the Lord God for His great mercy and forgiveness—but he did not. He did not come humbly to the Lord God in repentance. AND THE MAN SAID, THE WOMAN WHOM THOU GAVEST TO BE WITH ME, SHE GAVE ME OF THE TREE, AND I DID EAT-Gen 3:12. Adam blamed his wife and also blamed God. THE MAN SAID, THE WOMAN...SHE GAVE ME OF THE TREE. Sin also causes division. Here sin divided Adam from his wife. THE MAN SAID...SHE GAVE ME. He did not blame himself but sought to lay the blame on someone else. Adam had tried to justify himself by making an excuse. Adam was afraid. Perhaps, he thought that by blaming someone else, he might escape the judgment of the Lord God. How hard it is, for us to admit we sin and are at fault. How hard it is, for us to assume responsibility for our own sin and disobedience. How hard it is, to be totally open, and transparent, and honest. It seems we always want to plead innocent, even when we are guilty. And if we are guilty, we want to make an excuse, thus, laying the blame for our sin and disobedience on someone or something else.

Adam also blamed God. Note the words: THE WOMAN WHOM THOU GAVEST TO BE WITH ME, SHE GAVE ME OF THE TREE, AND I DID EAT. Adam seems to be saying, "God, I sinned because "You" gave me the woman who tempted me. If You had not given me the woman, I would not have sinned." Perhaps Adam, in his fear, thought he might escape the judgment of the Lord God, by showing God it was also His fault. We can envision the serpent in the background, prompting us to accuse others for our sin. Satan is called THE ACCUSER-Rev 12:10.”

[TNCEKM]

Two wrongs don't make a right. Why the hell do the newborns need to come into the picture? ...

EXACTLY!

When a human gets revenge, its human! And, its to be expected for survival's sake.

But, why does God need to kill newborns? <-- he doesn't need to, and he shouldn't. IMO, he didn't b/c the bible is some book written by "man". Obviously a god capable of creating our intricate universe is capable of writing a book, is he not?

[theredshirt]

EXACTLY!

When a human gets revenge, its human! And, its to be expected for survival's sake.

But, why does God need to kill newborns? <-- he doesn't need to, and he shouldn't. IMO, he didn't b/c the bible is some book written by "man". Obviously a god capable of creating our intricate universe is capable of writing a book, is he not?

yea why did he need to tell moses what to write down. he could have just clicked his fingers, or took "day 8" and make a perfect bible. another flaw

[IceDragon]

Pharoah was not obeying the Lord, also the people who did obey the Lord, death “passed over” and spared the newborns lives.

Quote me one scripture from that bible where he didn't kill these newborns.

Yes it is explicity stated but the Bible also states:
Matthew 5:30
And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell

Each verse has a specific meaning and can not always being taken at face value. That is where all the confusion comes into play.

So basically, do what you like, say "oh bugger, I repent", chop off a part of your body and throw it away and you'll be forgiven? Um...yeh, okay...gives all those murderers something else to do besides embrace Jesus... No confusion here, I take it as someone reads it.

God does not want robots, that is why the forbidden fruit existed.
Also I believe that if Adam & Eve owned up to their mistake and took responsibility for it God would not have punished them.

Eve, blamed the serpent:
“ AND THE LORD GOD SAID UNTO THE WOMAN, WHAT IS THIS THAT THOU HAST DONE? AND THE WOMAN SAID, THE SERPENT BEGUILED (or deceived) ME, AND I DID EAT-Gen 3:13. The Lord God asked the woman, WHAT IS THIS THAT THOU HAST DONE? The woman did not answer His question. She did not confess that she had tempted her husband and caused him to sin. She did not confess that she had eaten fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. She seemed to have little or no concern for her guilt, but rather, she wanted to shift the blame. She did not seem to have godly sorrow for what she had done. Rather, without admitting what she had done, she made an excuse and tried to justify herself. She immediately blamed the serpent, saying that he had BEGUILED (or deceived) her. The woman was afraid. Perhaps, she thought, by blaming the serpent, she might escape the judgment of God. Did she confess her sin, or fall down before a merciful Lord God and ask for forgiveness? Did she repent? She did none of these things. She did not want to take responsibility for what she had done. She ate of the fruit and then tempted her husband, a servant of the Lord God, to sin. Even today people may say, "The devil, he made me do it." We need to remember Lk 18:13,14-AND THE PUBLICAN, STANDING AFAR OFF, WOULD NOT LIFT UP SO MUCH AS HIS EYES UNTO HEAVEN, BUT SMOTE (or beat) UPON HIS BREAST, SAYING, GOD BE MERCIFUL TO ME A SINNER. I TELL YOU, THIS MAN WENT DOWN TO HIS HOUSE JUSTIFIED.”

Adam blamed the women:
“ AND THE LORD GOD CALLED UNTO ADAM, AND SAID UNTO HIM, WHERE ART THOU? AND HE (Adam) SAID, I HEARD THY VOICE IN THE GARDEN, AND I WAS AFRAID, BECAUSE I WAS NAKED; AND I HID MYSELF-Gen 3:9,10. Adam did not say he was afraid, because he disobeyed God. Adam was afraid, because he was naked. He was naked, because he had disobeyed God. Here is the beginning of bondage to fear. Here is a picture of Adam hiding from God but God seeking for Adam. Here is the beginning of man hiding from God because of sin, but a loving God seeking for man. Adam did not immediately admit he sinned. He only admitted he was naked, which was the result of his sin.
AND HE (the Lord God) SAID, WHO TOLD THEE THAT THOU WAST NAKED? HAST THOU EATEN OF THE TREE, WHEREOF I COMMANDED THEE THAT THOU SHOULDEST NOT EAT?-Gen 3:11. The Lord God first addresses the man. He asks the man two questions. WHO TOLD THEE THAT THOU WAST NAKED? Adam either chose not to answer the first question, or the Lord God continued on with the second question, coupling them together. The first question leaves only two possibilities. Either someone had told Adam that he was naked, or he had disobeyed God. The second question was, HAST THOU EATEN OF THE TREE, WHEREOF I COMMANDED THEE THAT THOU SHOULDEST NOT EAT? Adam needed to be confronted with his sin. Note the directness of the Lord God’s question, "HAST THOU EATEN?" As part of the question, the Lord God also confronted Adam directly with His command not to eat of the tree by, saying, "WHEREOF I COMMANDED THEE THAT THOU SHOULDEST NOT EAT?"
Adam initially should not have hid. At this point, he should have immediately confessed his sin with godly sorrow and without excuse. He should have sought the Lord God for His great mercy and forgiveness—but he did not. He did not come humbly to the Lord God in repentance. AND THE MAN SAID, THE WOMAN WHOM THOU GAVEST TO BE WITH ME, SHE GAVE ME OF THE TREE, AND I DID EAT-Gen 3:12. Adam blamed his wife and also blamed God. THE MAN SAID, THE WOMAN...SHE GAVE ME OF THE TREE. Sin also causes division. Here sin divided Adam from his wife. THE MAN SAID...SHE GAVE ME. He did not blame himself but sought to lay the blame on someone else. Adam had tried to justify himself by making an excuse. Adam was afraid. Perhaps, he thought that by blaming someone else, he might escape the judgment of the Lord God. How hard it is, for us to admit we sin and are at fault. How hard it is, for us to assume responsibility for our own sin and disobedience. How hard it is, to be totally open, and transparent, and honest. It seems we always want to plead innocent, even when we are guilty. And if we are guilty, we want to make an excuse, thus, laying the blame for our sin and disobedience on someone or something else.

Adam also blamed God. Note the words: THE WOMAN WHOM THOU GAVEST TO BE WITH ME, SHE GAVE ME OF THE TREE, AND I DID EAT. Adam seems to be saying, "God, I sinned because "You" gave me the woman who tempted me. If You had not given me the woman, I would not have sinned." Perhaps Adam, in his fear, thought he might escape the judgment of the Lord God, by showing God it was also His fault. We can envision the serpent in the background, prompting us to accuse others for our sin. Satan is called THE ACCUSER-Rev 12:10.”

So even though Adam and Eve had no experience of lying, of truth and what the difference between them is, they had no experience of temptation and how to resist it, they had no experience of someone lying TO them and therefore reasoned as children when given the temptation, they were at fault? I don;t think so, it's more that a supposedly kind and loving god was at fault for not giving them a second chance, considering that he could have done, quite easily in fact, since it was the first time they'd disobeyed them.

Does anyone else think that putting a bar of chocolate in front of a young kid and saying "now don't touch that, ever, you can't have it", turning your back and wandering off is fair to the child? Obviously, the child will snatch it up and eat it being a child's nature....as would a remarkably innocent-of-life-experience Adam and Eve. Kids also blame each other..."I didn't start it, he did" "no I didn't, she's lying, she did", "what! I never! You did!" and so on and so forth...actually, does it say anywhere how old they are? They sound like young kids actually, bickering like that...

[Health&vigor]

Quote me one scripture from that bible where he didn't kill these newborns.
So basically, do what you like, say "oh bugger, I repent", chop off a part of your body and throw it away and you'll be forgiven? Um...yeh, okay...gives all those murderers something else to do besides embrace Jesus... No confusion here, I take it as someone reads it.

I was referring to this, God’s people. Pharoah had a choice.
Exodus 12
12For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD.
13And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.

So even though Adam and Eve had no experience of lying, of truth and what the difference between them is, they had no experience of temptation and how to resist it, they had no experience of someone lying TO them and therefore reasoned as children when given the temptation, they were at fault? I don;t think so, it's more that a supposedly kind and loving god was at fault for not giving them a second chance, considering that he could have done, quite easily in fact, since it was the first time they'd disobeyed them.

Does anyone else think that putting a bar of chocolate in front of a young kid and saying "now don't touch that, ever, you can't have it", turning your back and wandering off is fair to the child? Obviously, the child will snatch it up and eat it being a child's nature....as would a remarkably innocent-of-life-experience Adam and Eve. Kids also blame each other..."I didn't start it, he did" "no I didn't, she's lying, she did", "what! I never! You did!" and so on and so forth...actually, does it say anywhere how old they are? They sound like young kids actually, bickering like that...

Whoa that went way over your head, but it is kind of ironic you are making excuses.

He has given mankind a second chance, Jesus Christ!

Yes, now we are getting somewhere, we all have fallen short of the glory of God that is why we need Jesus.

Actually your child analogy falls short. I gave my 3 year old a PEZ dispenser full of candy and told him he could eat it after dinner. You know what? Over three hours later, he did not eat any candy. He waited patiently the whole time, he is a wonderful kid!

[majortrepak]

Two wrongs don't make a right. Why the hell do the newborns need to come into the picture?

Firstborns, not newborns. The Egyptians killed jewish newborns and God killed Egyptian's firstborns. firstborns/=/newborns.
This was the OT and the old covenant God was a God of vengeance not of forgiveness.

Isn't it explicitly stated in the verse that he would harden Pharoah's heart?

In Exodus 1 it states that the entire nation of Egypt conspired to enslave the jews and rely on their labor. Later it states God will hardon Pharoah's heart but as we know God will never force someone to do something everyone has a choice. So while God may have influnced Pharoah, Pharoah still had free will and made his decison.

[majortrepak]

That's really starting to sound like a set-up, kind of like Adam and Eve - set-up deliberately so that he would get the outcome he wanted and punish them accordingly.

How can it be a set up when 2 choices are given