For those who don't advocate full squats

[dookie1481]

Another money lift is the full squat. A lot of athletes and coaches shy away from full squatting, instead using shallow one-fourth squats. This is solely motivated by ego —wanting to lift more weight to impress others. They justify their method by saying that full squats are bad for the knees. As most T-mag readers already know, this is hogwash!

In case you need some ammo defending full squats to the ego-squatters, here's why they're actually safer than partial squats:

• The deceleration path is longer during the full squat. Thus the deceleration is slower during the full squat. The faster the deceleration, the greater the risk of injury.

• It's been established that the most unstable knee angle is 900. Does it make sense to stop (in a rapid manner) and change direction at the most unstable knee angle? It makes about as much sense as hitting the breaks of your car and trying for a 180 degrees turn as you hit a patch of ice! (For most of you, a squat where your knee angle is 900 equates to about a 1/4 squat.)

• Full squatting can actually strengthen the tendons of the knees, making the articulation more stable.

• Full squatting leads to balanced lower body development, while shallow squatting can lead to quad dominance which is the cause of many injuries.

• In the shallow squat you use more weight (that's why it's an ego lift). If you can't full squat a weight, you have no business quarter-squatting it! Your structures (bones, tendons, ligaments) aren't well adapted enough to sustain the load and you risk injury.

• Full back squats can make more difference in sport performance than any other exercise. Notice that I advocate a close-stance full squat with an upright trunk. This is the only way an athlete should squat.



From http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=229mon

[Big Nes]

yep. it's been argued to death on these boards.

nice post tho. ASS TO GRASS, baby!

[ed073]

bumporama!

[dookie1481]

Originally posted by Big Nes
yep. it's been argued to death on these boards.

nice post tho. ASS TO GRASS, baby!

Yes, but this is the same forum where you get 42 questions about bi workouts a day. I figured I'd help with something worthwhile

[hyp3r3xt3nsion]

Originally posted by Big Nes
yep. it's been argued to death on these boards.

nice post tho. ASS TO GRASS, baby!

[wildman536]

Originally posted by Big Nes
yep. it's been argued to death on these boards.

nice post tho. ASS TO GRASS, baby!

[rurkster]

Full range of motion = full results.

Partial range of motion = partial results.

Simple as that.

[John AK]

As a future physical therapist, and knowing exactly what happens to tendons and ligaments when you do full squats, I thoroughly refuse to recommend them.

They may be best for development, yes, but best for development isn't always best for health. Anabolic roids anyone?

I bodybuild and strength train, along with cardio, agility training, balance training, and speed training to increase my health and prolong my life. If it's counterproductive to that, it's useless to me.

Doing something that harms your body in the long run just to get big faster is the ultimate ego-lift.

[SavesTheMuscle]

Question for John,

Why don't you recommend them? Is there a thread you could point me in to save you the typing .

I would like to hear both sides of the arguement, you know? Be well informed and then make a descion.

[hyp3r3xt3nsion]

Originally posted by John AK
As a future physical therapist, and knowing exactly what happens to tendons and ligaments when you do full squats, I thoroughly refuse to recommend them.

.

i think you should re-study your course material, lol

[John AK]

Here is a good place to start:

http://www.dynomed.com/encyclopedia/...ment_Tear.html


A certain part to note is this quote:

"Measuring about the size of a finger, the ACL (Anterior Cruciate Ligament) is a large, dense cord that can take up to 500 pounds of pressure before it will tear."

Also:

"Ruptures of the anterior cruciate ligament happen when the tibia moves too far forward, or when the knee is hyper extended. If the knee is twisted violently, such as in a clipping injury in football, the ACL may not be the only ligament torn."

^ Those are all forces being applied during a squat, excepting the twist of course.

OK, say you're squatting 275. Now add the weight of your body from the knee up - at least another 120 - 140 lbs (and I'm being GENEROUS there...it's probably more in reality). So so far, just from the weight involved, we've got at least 395 lbs above the knee.

Now, let's bend the leg to a full flexion. That 395 lbs is wrapped at a greater than 90 degree angle (ass to grass, about 130 - 140 degrees). Are you familiar with how force dynamics change when using pullies?

Basically a flexed knee turns the ACL into a two stage pulley, mean that force applied to one side is roughly doubled. Even in a controlled movement, with a load bearing weightlifters strengthened joints, and with other muscles, ligaments, and tendons in between the fulcrum and the weight area regulating and reducing forces, 790lbs of applied force is tempting fate.

When it comes to ass to grass squats, the physics do not add up, if you want the nut shell version.


Hyperextension - no thank you. I know my course material quite well. Listen, you can take what I'm saying into account or not - it's really no skin off my back (knees) if you don't. After all, it's not my knees that will come apart by age 40...

[dookie1481]

Originally posted by John AK
Here is a good place to start:

http://www.dynomed.com/encyclopedia/...ment_Tear.html


A certain part to note is this quote:

"Measuring about the size of a finger, the ACL (Anterior Cruciate Ligament) is a large, dense cord that can take up to 500 pounds of pressure before it will tear."

Also:

"Ruptures of the anterior cruciate ligament happen when the tibia moves too far forward, or when the knee is hyper extended. If the knee is twisted violently, such as in a clipping injury in football, the ACL may not be the only ligament torn."

^ Those are all forces being applied during a squat, excepting the twist of course.

OK, say you're squatting 275. Now add the weight of your body from the knee up - at least another 120 - 140 lbs (and I'm being GENEROUS there...it's probably more in reality). So so far, just from the weight involved, we've got at least 395 lbs above the knee.

Now, let's bend the leg to a full flexion. That 395 lbs is wrapped at a greater than 90 degree angle (ass to grass, about 130 - 140 degrees). Are you familiar with how force dynamics change when using pullies?

Basically a flexed knee turns the ACL into a two stage pulley, mean that force applied to one side is roughly doubled. Even in a controlled movement, with a load bearing weightlifters strengthened joints, and with other muscles, ligaments, and tendons in between the fulcrum and the weight area regulating and reducing forces, 790lbs of applied force is tempting fate.

When it comes to ass to grass squats, the physics do not add up, if you want the nut shell version.


Hyperextension - no thank you. I know my course material quite well. Listen, you can take what I'm saying into account or not - it's really no skin off my back (knees) if you don't. After all, it's not my knees that will come apart by age 40...

Let me guess, you won't hesitate to use Leg Extensions and the tremendous shearing forces that they produce? How is it that Olympic Weightlifters, whose asses just about touch the ground, are injured less often than BBer's and PLer's?

[John AK]

Originally posted by dookie1481
Let me guess, you won't hesitate to use Leg Extensions and the tremendous shearing forces that they produce?

I haven't done leg extensions since I started lifting free weight three years ago.

(in other words, I stopped doing them when I learned better.)

[dookie1481]

Most interesting to me is the problem with what is usually recommended as "safe": squatting to parallel. At parallel (where the thigh is parallel to the floor, higher than the depth of a full squat by about 30 degrees), the compressive forces on the patella (kneecap) are actually at their highest (Huberti & Hayes, Journal of Bone Joint Surgery, 1984: 715-724). Decelerating, stopping, and reversing direction at this angle can inspire significant knee pain in even healthy people, whereas full squats present no problem. Another exercise which is supposedly "safer" is the leg extension, even though patellar tension and shear forces on the knee joint are demonstrably higher with such an exercise (see sidebar).

It is worthwhile at this point to comment on the things that do cause knee injury. The primary causes of knee injury involve:

a) twisting under a load

b) too much load (for example, I heard of a guy who boasted that he could squat 800 lbs. He had never done it before, and couldn't even full squat half that much, but he decided that 800 was a good round number, and he was going to attempt to quarter squat it. Long story short, knee ligaments did not agree with his assessment)

c) landing unevenly from a jump, especially with straightened rather than bent legs (this is a big problem for folks like basketball and volleyball players)

d) being in a situation where one part of the leg is held stationary while the other is moving (for example, stepping in a gopher hole while running: shin stays in place while the thigh keeps moving)

e) impact to the knee (such as a hit from the side or front in football)

f) squatting in a Smith machine which does not allow proper shifts in weight through the movement, and results in shear on knee and spine

In other words, knee injury usually results from varus or valgus force (twisting of the joint in either direction), inappropriate loading, or forcible shear across the joint. It does not occur simply from taking the knee joint through a full range of motion, using correct technique, and using a weight which is appropriate to the abilities of the trainee.
why are leg extensions hard on the knee joint?

To understand why this is, it is helpful to understand the concept of shear. Shear in this case just refers to a horizontal force on the joint. Imagine two cans stacked on top of one another, and imagine that a piece of masking tape joins them. Then, imagine what happens if you hold the top can still while you push the bottom can to one side. Eventually that tape will snap. This is a simplistic description of what happens to the knee joint in a leg extension.



Here is a simple diagram that attempts to explain the difference between the squat and the leg extension. The black lines represent the thigh bone, shin bones, and knee joint (black circle). In a squat, as shown in the figure on the left, your feet are on the ground (hopefully), and the force of the load is transmitted downwards, along the length of the bones. In a leg extension machine, there is a pad against the front of your shin or ankle, and you press against it to move the weight. The foot swings upward in an arc. Thus, as you can see in the figure on the right, the pressure is coming across the shin bones, not along their length. This creates the problem in the knee joint as the shin is pressed backwards.

Leg extensions do have their place, usually in rehab. If the leg extension machine is used, it is wise to use a smaller range of motion, perhaps the top third of the movement (from slightly bent to fully straight leg), and light weight.

This is not to say that everyone can immediately leap into full squatting. It is essential to learn to squat in a way that meets your individual needs, and I'll discuss that in Part 3. It is common to have difficulty with a full range of motion in the beginning. If knee pain is felt during the squatting motion, there are a few possible reasons. First, it is important to rule out existing pathology. Some people may indeed have knees that are so damaged that they are unable to squat, but this is rare (and these people are probably walking with a cane). In particular, full squatting is contraindicated for someone with an acute posterior cruciate ligament (PCL) injury, but these types of injuries are uncommon and usually result from something like a car accident. Someone who has rehabilitated a PCL injury can attempt full squats with light loading, and see how it goes. With correct loading and technique, anterior cruciate ligaments (ACL) and medial cruciate ligament (MCL) injuries generally don't present a problem. I know someone who is even missing an ACL on one knee, and has a reconstructed ACL on the other, and she squats quite happily.

From http://www.stumptuous.com/weights.html

[John AK]

Originally posted by dookie1481

inappropriate loading,

What exactly, sir, do you think all that math I just worked so laboriously to type up demonstrated? Puffy cotton barbells?


Remember loading isn't just how much weight is on you - it's how it's applied as well.

Look, there are always going to be arguments on both sides of the issue - and one can find a link to anything on the internet. Debate is good and whatnot, but I prefer to go with the advice and evidence of my medically educated, properly certified instructors.

The information I provide here is for your benefit, or not. Think what you will of it. Like I said...it's no skin off my back if you disregard it.

Anyway, I'm done here. I've said my piece, and have nothing further to add at the moment.

[dookie1481]

Originally posted by John AK
What exactly, sir, do you think all that math I just worked so laboriously to type up demonstrated? Puffy cotton barbells?

So if, you only weighed 20 pounds, then it would be safe to go ass to grass? I have a nice, motivational pic of Idalberto Arranda doing a triple w/ 290 KILOS, and he could wipe his butt on the platform. He had just about set a WR in the C & J in his weight class 12 hrs. before that. So how is it that those guys don't have synthetic ACLs?

[John AK]

Originally posted by dookie1481
So if, you only weighed 20 pounds, then it would be safe to go ass to grass? I have a nice, motivational pic of Idalberto Arranda doing a triple w/ 290 KILOS, and he could wipe his butt on the platform. He had just about set a WR in the C & J in his weight class 12 hrs. before that. So how is it that those guys don't have synthetic ACLs?

I said tempting fate, not certain death.

See above.

[dookie1481]

Originally posted by John AK
What exactly, sir, do you think all that math I just worked so laboriously to type up demonstrated? Puffy cotton barbells?


Remember loading isn't just how much weight is on you - it's how it's applied as well.

Look, there are always going to be arguments on both sides of the issue - and one can find a link to anything on the internet. Debate is good and whatnot, but I prefer to go with the advice and evidence of my medically educated, properly certified instructors.

The information I provide here is for your benefit, or not. Think what you will of it. Like I said...it's no skin off my back if you disregard it.

Anyway, I'm done here. I've said my piece, and have nothing further to add at the moment.

You bring up good points. I just happen to disagree. Going w/ what you said, doctors 30 yrs. ago wrote studies saying that steroids didn't work. I felt pain in my knees when I didn't go all the way down, but since I starting going to the floor, my knees have felt wonderful. Anyway, thank you for having a civil discussion. Most people act as if you just said that Jesus Christ never existed.

[dookie1481]

Originally posted by John AK
I said tempting fate, not certain death.

See above.

I know, but the point is that these guys do this for years and years, and you rarely hear of OLer's w/ knee injuries.

[rent-a-lambo]

Originally posted by dookie1481
I know, but the point is that these guys do this for years and years, and you rarely hear of OLer's w/ knee injuries.

Not according to Bob Chick

[dookie1481]

Originally posted by rent-a-lambo
Not according to Bob Chick

Yes, I forgot. The biomechanist.

[hyp3r3xt3nsion]

Originally posted by dookie1481
Yes, I forgot. The biomechanist.

w/ a phD in nuclear physics

[dookie1481]

Originally posted by hyp3r3xt3nsion
w/ a phD in nuclear physics

And two McLaren F1's!

[rent-a-lambo]

And hier to the british throne

[hyp3r3xt3nsion]

Originally posted by rent-a-lambo
And hier to the british throne

and being a director!

[rent-a-lambo]

Bob has quitethe imagination. What'll he come up with next? Nobel peace prize? A Pulitzer for his work with FLEX?

[HoosierBoy]

Nice post, although it's worth mentioning that for some of us with certain physical dimensions, a parallel squat basically is ATG.

[dookie1481]

Originally posted by HoosierBoy
Nice post, although it's worth mentioning that for some of us with certain physical dimensions, a parallel squat basically is ATG.

To what are you referring? Huge hammys or calves?

[th3 gr34t3st]

Originally posted by John AK
Here is a good place to start:

http://www.dynomed.com/encyclopedia/...ment_Tear.html


A certain part to note is this quote:

"Measuring about the size of a finger, the ACL (Anterior Cruciate Ligament) is a large, dense cord that can take up to 500 pounds of pressure before it will tear."

Also:

"Ruptures of the anterior cruciate ligament happen when the tibia moves too far forward, or when the knee is hyper extended. If the knee is twisted violently, such as in a clipping injury in football, the ACL may not be the only ligament torn."

^ Those are all forces being applied during a squat, excepting the twist of course.

OK, say you're squatting 275. Now add the weight of your body from the knee up - at least another 120 - 140 lbs (and I'm being GENEROUS there...it's probably more in reality). So so far, just from the weight involved, we've got at least 395 lbs above the knee.

Now, let's bend the leg to a full flexion. That 395 lbs is wrapped at a greater than 90 degree angle (ass to grass, about 130 - 140 degrees). Are you familiar with how force dynamics change when using pullies?

Basically a flexed knee turns the ACL into a two stage pulley, mean that force applied to one side is roughly doubled. Even in a controlled movement, with a load bearing weightlifters strengthened joints, and with other muscles, ligaments, and tendons in between the fulcrum and the weight area regulating and reducing forces, 790lbs of applied force is tempting fate.

When it comes to ass to grass squats, the physics do not add up, if you want the nut shell version.


Hyperextension - no thank you. I know my course material quite well. Listen, you can take what I'm saying into account or not - it's really no skin off my back (knees) if you don't. After all, it's not my knees that will come apart by age 40...

i had an ACL reconstruction 6 months ago and my pt completely forbade leg extensions but said when im fully healed to squat all the way down b/c it protects the knee.

[dookie1481]

Originally posted by th3 gr34t3st
i had an ACL reconstruction 6 months ago and my pt completely forbade leg extensions but said when im fully healed to squat all the way down b/c it protects the knee.

Sounds like you have one who knows what they're doing.