Shrinking the Prostate

[Bob45]

I wasn't sure where to post this. I did a search on Prostate and it came up most in Supplements and Steroids. Maybe I'll try both. I have been diagnosed with BPH. I have been to Urologists and alternative medicine doctors. I had many tests and there is no cancer. I do urinate 20 - 25 times a day. It's hard to go anywhere. So far I have tried several herbal formula's. None have worked. I tried Proscar for a couple weeks with teribble side effects that lasted for over a year.

The main thing helping now is diet.

Has anyone here successfully rid themselves of BPH and how?

[arms++]

I don't have experience with this, but from what I read, stop eating read meat (beef, etc), saturated fats. The cholesterol in these sources directly converts to testosterone which is thereby converted to DHT int he prostrate (5 AR enzyme) and DHT is the ultimate culprit. Try to get your cholesterol level down (exercise, diet, suppl). How frequently do u ejaculate per week? If it's low u *might* try a little shagging. Read somewhere that regular masturbation/sex will keep the prostrate in good health. Well I must add that I read this in a news article not a study/paper, so try at your own risk! Also, modifying diet can only be preventive and may not be curative...

[Bob45]

Thanks Arms. I haven't been eating much fatty anything for a long time. The shagging I have always done a lot of. Hoping for some miracle pill to come along and cure me.

[souped_up]

Your doctor is an idiot, you need nolva not proscar.

Keep the nolva at low dose though, nothing heavy.

Maybe 10 mg a day should be all you need. Anymore and it might make you feel a little depressed and give you achy joints. But estrogen plays the key role in bph more so then dht.

[Bob45]

Thanks souped_up. Someone else told me that. Just that alone? Anything else to watch out for with side effects?

[Bob45]

Originally posted by souped_up
Your doctor is an idiot, you need nolva not proscar.

Keep the nolva at low dose though, nothing heavy.

Maybe 10 mg a day should be all you need. Anymore and it might make you feel a little depressed and give you achy joints. But estrogen plays the key role in bph more so then dht.

Good point. Everything I've tried is targeted towards DHT.

[souped_up]

Originally posted by Bob45
Thanks souped_up. Someone else told me that. Just that alone? Anything else to watch out for with side effects?

10 mg isn't anything real heavy. I did 50 mg postcycle for 3 weeks then tapered down from there to 10 mg the 4th week because it was starting to make me a little depressed, give me achy joints, acne etc. But keep in mind i was doin 50 mg for 3 weeks.

If you want to do this long term though i wouldn't do more then 10 mg a day.

Oh and if your going to do it, DO NOT use any supplements that interfere with dht as i believe when they used nolva and proscar together it actually made the prostate worse since i guess getting rid of dht and estrogen is not good, but getting rid of estrogen SOLEY is better then getting rid of dht by itself. This is what i got off of some research, can't remember where.

[souped_up]

Originally posted by Bob45
Good point. Everything I've tried is targeted towards DHT.

By the way nolva increases natural test production so your libido should go through the roof(even on 10 mg i would imagine) and you should be emptying that prostate even more allowing for better comfort with your prostate.

[Bob45]

Thanks for all the info. I appreciate it!

[Q-dogg]

I think the medical community is misunderstanding of BPH and DHT.
As you grow older, your test levels decline, right. So wouldn't your conversion to DHT also decline?
But,
As you get older, your estogen levels increase, and in particular bad estrogen. Is this the real problem behind BPH? Cancer?

To improve BPH check and research these supplements:
zinc
beta sitosterol - lots of good stuff about this one!
forskolin
nettle root
lycopene
pygeum
omega 3
gla
rhodiola
DIM - lots of good stuff about this one!

[Bob45]

Q-dogg, It never made sense to me either. The DHT blockers are also not working for me. I am going to keep researching this. I've used most of the Supp's you have listed. I will look into the other one's too. As far as Nolvadex I imagine it wouldn't do much good discussing it with my doctor. They seem to all be set on standards they can't go off of. I'll have to find it on my own.

[souped_up]

Originally posted by Bob45
Q-dogg, It never made sense to me either. The DHT blockers are also not working for me. I am going to keep researching this. I've used most of the Supp's you have listed. I will look into the other one's too. As far as Nolvadex I imagine it wouldn't do much good discussing it with my doctor. They seem to all be set on standards they can't go off of. I'll have to find it on my own.

Trust me nolvadex works. It might take a while to set in since 10 mg is fairly low but if your going to use this long term i wouldn't do much more then that(maybe 15 mg tops everyday).

But i bought mine from the website I listed. Tastes a little nasty but just mix with your protein shake or whatever. They do those warnings because its a prescription drug and not meant to be sold over the counter.

[souped_up]

Originally posted by Bob45
Q-dogg, It never made sense to me either. The DHT blockers are also not working for me. I am going to keep researching this. I've used most of the Supp's you have listed. I will look into the other one's too. As far as Nolvadex I imagine it wouldn't do much good discussing it with my doctor. They seem to all be set on standards they can't go off of. I'll have to find it on my own.

LOL thats because you guys are wrong, dht actually increases as you age due to lower progesterone levels increasing the rate of dht conversion from testosterone.

Regardless estrogen seems to play a bigger role then dht in BPH and if you do use an anti-estrogen im not sure if you should use anything that blocks the conversion of dht.

LOL you would think im an old man with all the knowledgei have(im in the very early 20's), but i guess you can say i know a little bit about everything

[Bob45]

I wonder how long I would have to be off the DHT blockers? I have been taking different formulas. When I read liquid I thought injections on that site. Glad it's oral. Thanks again.

[souped_up]

Originally posted by Bob45
I wonder how long I would have to be off the DHT blockers? I have been taking different formulas. When I read liquid I thought injections on that site. Glad it's oral. Thanks again.

Id guess it would start working right away.


If you use 10 mg a day that iwll last you for a little more then 3 months. Might want to get something to measure out the ml since they only give you a dropper.


After a steroid cycle for short term use where higher dosages are needed short term to getnatural production up 40 to 20 mg is the dosages used for 3 to 4 weeks so thats why i say long term youd probably better off with 10 or so.

If you don't notice it A LOT better after 4 weeks(it takes a while to build up i think) then bump it up to 15 mg everyday.

Watch out for things such as feeling depression or achy joints. IM not sure if those things would be really evident at low dosages but you are thinking of taking it long term. I think 10 mg would be just getting your estrogen levels to how they were in your 20's maybe, who knows....

[Q-dogg]

souped_up

cool!

Explain this dht and bhp thing in relation to dht levels increasing with age, but test decreases. You said something about progesterone levels. I am not too informed on that, just slightly covered it, and I guess I got a little mixed up. Or just link to it!

Bob45,
Have you looked into DIM? Have you tried it? And if so what dose?
Where do you live?
I live in Asheville NC, and the DR up here are getting pretty into supplements and it is cool.

I know about DR's not wanting to go off the standard, and they have good reason....lawsuit. But tell them what your plans are and even if they want prescribe you the stuff, they can at least monitor it to see if it is working. I had a problem that was real rare, and I had to see a sports med specialist, one of the best in the state. He never exactly figured out how I got the condition, and it went away when I lost 20lb of muscle for the surgery. We called off my sugery 3 days before my operation. He basically broke down, in a very cool way, and said: "hey, we are only humans trained to try and treat symptoms, and hope we can help. Most of the time we tell you something, but we dont really know. The human body is way too complex at this point for a DR to know about how exactly it works. We just know kind of how things work and treat symptoms in hopes of improving lift."
That was one cool ****ing Dr to be so honest about med.

[Bob45]

I haven't tried gla,rhodiola, DIM, or forskolin. I am in NY. I am getting psyched with all this new info to check out. This peeing all the time sucks big time!

[souped_up]

Originally posted by Q-dogg
souped_up

cool!

Explain this dht and bhp thing in relation to dht levels increasing with age, but test decreases. You said something about progesterone levels. I am not too informed on that, just slightly covered it, and I guess I got a little mixed up. Or just link to it!

Bob45,
Have you looked into DIM? Have you tried it? And if so what dose?
Where do you live?
I live in Asheville NC, and the DR up here are getting pretty into supplements and it is cool.

I know about DR's not wanting to go off the standard, and they have good reason....lawsuit. But tell them what your plans are and even if they want prescribe you the stuff, they can at least monitor it to see if it is working. I had a problem that was real rare, and I had to see a sports med specialist, one of the best in the state. He never exactly figured out how I got the condition, and it went away when I lost 20lb of muscle for the surgery. We called off my sugery 3 days before my operation. He basically broke down, in a very cool way, and said: "hey, we are only humans trained to try and treat symptoms, and hope we can help. Most of the time we tell you something, but we dont really know. The human body is way too complex at this point for a DR to know about how exactly it works. We just know kind of how things work and treat symptoms in hopes of improving lift."
That was one cool ****ing Dr to be so honest about med.

Progesterone decreases causing the dht and estrogen to convert more if i recall correctly. Teosterone levels also decline so you have a higher estrogen/dht to testosterone ratio.

Now they are saying(with research to back this up) that estrogen plays most of the role in bph. DHT can too but if you block estrogen to a significant neough degree thats all you need for your prostate.

[intv]

Does saw palmetto help at all? It seems to help my ephedra or 1-test induced prostate probs, but maybe it's too weak for BPH? If you go with liquid nolva, you can always order some empty gel caps to drop it into if you don't want to deal with the taste. I can get .5ml (10mg if your nolva is 20mg/ml) into an '0' size cap. Flavored nolva spray is also available now.

[jwmonks]

I've read that large doses of pumpkin seed meal have a prostate shrinking effect. You might also give this a try if you haven't already.

As for saw palmetto I've noticed I have to take lots of it several times a day to get any benefit. You're condition might be to severe for it take effect.

Pat Arnold recently put out an article on the whole estrogen-DHT-BPH phenomena which was quite interesting. Its somewhere on BB.com. It appears blocking estrogen might be the ticket.

[Bob45]

The Pumpkin Seed and Saw Palmetto are in what I take now. It hasn't been helping so far.
The empty gel caps is a good idea. They will be good for measuring.

[Q-dogg]

Forget Saw Palmetto....

beta sitosterol, this is the compound in Saw Palmetto that does the magic. You can buy it in an extract.

[Bob45]

I've been taking 300mg of that a day too. The one Super Prostate Formula has a lot of different things in it.

[pogue]

Beta sitosterol has worked very well for me. I can tell it has been working because the frequency of urination at night has decreased significantly.

Beyond a century has Better Prostate for around $10.

[arms++]

I can't believe you guys are blaming estrogen for BPH. BPH is caused by hypertrophy of the prostrate, and this is supposedly caused by the binding of androgen hormones (DHT) to the adrogen receptors on the prostrate cells!! How could estrogen increase prostrate size when the prostrate has androgen receptors? If testosterone/DHT increase penis size during puberty, and if estrogen increases prostrate size, clits would grow in women during puberty!!

[arms++]

Oh, BTW from what I've read test decreases with age because of conversion of test to DHT. Libido is caused by test rather than DHT

[Bob45]

This is all new to me arms. Just researching the Nolma. Hopefully something is going to work.

[Bob45]

Originally posted by arms++
I can't believe you guys are blaming estrogen for BPH. BPH is caused by hypertrophy of the prostrate, and this is supposedly caused by the binding of androgen hormones (DHT) to the adrogen receptors on the prostrate cells!! How could estrogen increase prostrate size when the prostrate has androgen receptors? If testosterone/DHT increase penis size during puberty, and if estrogen increases prostrate size, clits would grow in women during puberty!!

Arms, I copied and pasted this article I found.

Later in life, there is often a second stage of growth. This growth is deemed benign prostate hypertrophy (BPH) and this growth occurs in a wholly different hormonal environment than that of developmental growth. Evidence is mounting that the existence of a high estrogen/androgen ratio—a condition common in older men—is highly correlated to the development of BPH.

[pogue]

Both estrogens and androgens can play a role in prostate development. You can have too much DHT or too much estrogen and it can cause certain problems in your body when your endocrine system gets out of whack.

Basically, we are starting to think that estrogen is the main culprit, but once the process of prostate growth has started, then testosterone and DHT can cause it to grow further, and thats why we use DHT reducing drugs.

I think windwords7 would be a good person to ask about this, Bob, he posts on Anabolicminds.com and here occasionally. He has gone through hell with his prostate and I believe he has finally found some relief.

Other than that, what I have found is that saw palmetto and all that other stuff they put in prostate formulas is essentially trying to give you high levels of beta sitosterol, because that is the active ingredient in most all of those herbs. The best thing, herbally, for prostate relief is probably going to be stuff with high levels of phytosterols and lignans. That would be flax oil, saw palmetto, beta sitosterol, soy protein, etc.

On the pharmacutical side of it, there are drugs that help sooth the soft muscle of the prostate, and things such as finasteride and tamoxifen which reduce the levels of DHT and estrogen in the body, depending on what is causing the problem.

I would speak with your doctor and have your PSA levels checked, along with talking to an endocronologist and having your testosterone, DHT and estrogen levels checked. Once you have that information, you will know better what to do for your situation.

[ahbroody]

good post pogue.