Interesting/Newly discovered ingredients that are not yet being used in formulas?

[Mr.Cooper69]

Terminalia Arjuna
Salacia Reticulata

Thanks, there goes our next product

95% of companies consider R&D as having someone look at Pubmed in hopes of finding something. There is almost zero money spent towards actual product/ingredient innovation. The current mindset for companies is to create products that have an end production costs of less than 6-7 dollars. This allows them to hit the magical 29.99 price point and run constant specials on websites for Buy 1 Get X free. Look at the history of the industry. There has never been a time when so much stuff is on sale. That's because the cost of the items being sold went down. Not because of raw material prices dropping, but companies make crap ball formula's sprinkled with ingredients. Efficacious is a word few understand. The market is currently about what can be put on sale. They are formulating off a price point, not what works.

The few raw material companies that invest in studies will product 1-2 ingredients per year. Theacrine is an example. It was one of the only new raw materials to come out in the past 6-12 months, so everyone will throw it in their product. This wasn't developed by a supplement company, but a raw material supplier. If they don't innovate there will be no new materials. Companies don't invest in R&D. They invest in marketing, that's it. There is some good data on new ingredients in the market place currently. The problem most companies have is cost. Once you've setup a model of giving your **** away every week on bb.com you can't exactly change the model. These companies have to keep things on sale in order to keep volume up. There is only price demand for the product, not actual demand. If they stop putting it on sale, the sales fall through the floor. Ever wonder why the same brands on sale here 24/7? It's a nasty cycle. They can't make a product that can stand on its own merit. You know why Quest doesn't run a sale? They don't have to, they have real pull through demand. Not push demand, which is driven by low price.

The only innovation I would expect from most companies is typical bull**** we always see. Referencing some random study that has nothing to do with real world application and claiming they reinvented the wheel. They'll spend exactly 0 dollars to prove their new gadget does anything. Isn't it amazing how some companies are always "innovating" yet refuse to spend 50-100k to actually prove that in a real world setting? Don't worry, they're good "bro's".

All of that said, we have a ton of things coming out. We've spent 4 years funding all types of research. The culmination of which will be seen over the next 8-9 months as we do new product releases. Around end of year we will release the most effective intraworkout that exists, period. There will be real data, with real humans, doing real work. Such a novel concept. The question will be, do consumers actually care or will they chase the same crap that's always on sale that has zero data. Guess we'll find out .

Not to mention our joint product is going to blow every other one out of the water. Which we've already seen with all the logs from our testing. Science and Innovation, Scivation

My, how wrong you are about theacrine. We had it sourced, synthesized, and tested years ago, back when the very first interesting study came out. We didn't run with it because it was hit or miss and the price point over caffeine just couldn't be justified.

[Mr.Cooper69]

We have not funded any studies ASFAIK. That's really what Mike was pointing out, R&D should include funding studies and what not.

$$ is the reason for many companies here (obviously not talking about the big ones). I would LOVE to conduct trials on some of this stuff.

The new marketing is to avoid the science and just say it tastes good. Ignore the fact the product is insanely under dosed, that taste brahhhhhh. Well, no wonder it tastes good, there is no active in it. Oh, it's on sale every week for b1g1 b1g2. Can't imagine why?

Now this I can agree with. Shame really.

From what I understand silicon is good for blood vessels and preventing atherosclerosis, which is why arginine silicate (nitrosigine) is supposed to be a promising remedy for such. So maybe citrulline silicate would be more potent? I'm hoping that BPI can elaborate.

There's nothing to silicate unfortunately. You get it through everything, and megadosing won't do anything.

So my grandpa has debilatating shot knees, will this provide appreciable relief?

The vast majority of "debilitating" arthritic knees will have zero response to an anti-inflammatory. Even cortisone injections and visco-supplementation won't work in advanced stage arthritis.

Regardless, there's nothing novel about an anti-inflammatory. The first line for joint pain for the last 5 decades has been, yup...anti-inflammatories (NSAIDs). Virtually all effective anti-inflammatories will inhibit COX-2 to accomplish this (there are other less effective pathways like nF-KB with curcumin, etc), and virtually all oral anti-inflammatories are not site-specific, so hypertrophy will theoretically be diminished regardless of the compound. It's not so much that this approach is novel because it's actually the exact opposite, it's redundant with what's been used medically for decades. Rather, it's novel in that it's not the glucosamine chondroitin crap with iffy data.

[fahdalsheheata]

Shoot me in the head if that's what I come out with. Like I said in the post, we're going after totally different mechanisms, which is why we had over 50% of testers see results in 10 days.

ok but when are you going to release it ?

[ahawk01]

From an enhanced version of -epi which i ran a controlled log on with the only other supplement i used was caffeine. Coming out of a reverse diet, I noticed increased endurance, recovery between sets, recovery between workouts, enhanced pumps and leaning while increasing calories (direct result of increased workout energy expenditure through greater frequency and volume moved).

Im not trying to pimp the following product at all, cause there are multiple similar products on the market, but if you scroll down to the bottom you can see my week 1 and week 4 pics:

http://www.suppreviewers.com/ep1c-unleashed/

Noticed they used green tea plus soy lecithin to make this.. Not sure if it's ground breaking..

[neuron]

Objectivism always knew NMT was complete bunk.

http://hightowerpharmacology.blogspo...ltyramine.html

[noaddedhormones]

Noticed they used green tea plus soy lecithin to make this.. Not sure if it's ground breaking..

You noticed that ey? You also noticed how the -epi was extracted?

[noaddedhormones]

The vast majority of "debilitating" arthritic knees will have zero response to an anti-inflammatory. Even cortisone injections and visco-supplementation won't work in advanced stage arthritis.

Regardless, there's nothing novel about an anti-inflammatory. The first line for joint pain for the last 5 decades has been, yup...anti-inflammatories (NSAIDs). Virtually all effective anti-inflammatories will inhibit COX-2 to accomplish this (there are other less effective pathways like nF-KB with curcumin, etc), and virtually all oral anti-inflammatories are not site-specific, so hypertrophy will theoretically be diminished regardless of the compound. It's not so much that this approach is novel because it's actually the exact opposite, it's redundant with what's been used medically for decades. Rather, it's novel in that it's not the glucosamine chondroitin crap with iffy data.

Thanks for the info. So what you are basically saying is, most potential treatments are moot when arthritis has developed far enough?

[Mr.Cooper69]

Thanks for the info. So what you are basically saying is, most potential treatments are moot when arthritis has developed far enough?

Correct, at that point (bone on bone), only a knee replacement can save you

[NEBinAK]

ok but when are you going to release it ?

Should be about 6 weeks out if I recall correctly, will be longer for it to come here

[punksurfer024]

From an enhanced version of -epi which i ran a controlled log on with the only other supplement i used was caffeine. Coming out of a reverse diet, I noticed increased endurance, recovery between sets, recovery between workouts, enhanced pumps and leaning while increasing calories (direct result of increased workout energy expenditure through greater frequency and volume moved).

Im not trying to pimp the following product at all, cause there are multiple similar products on the market, but if you scroll down to the bottom you can see my week 1 and week 4 pics:

http://www.suppreviewers.com/ep1c-unleashed/

Just FYI, this is not a controlled log if there are other aspects of your life that changed in addition to the introduction of a new supplement (diet, training volume, etc.)

[noaddedhormones]

Just FYI, this is not a controlled log if there are other aspects of your life that changed in addition to the introduction of a new supplement (diet, training volume, etc.)

Alright man. Take a chill pill. Did you want me to lock myself up in a room for four weeks. I said it was controlled becuase i did in fact control for as many major factors as possible. This included diet, training and supplementation.

Unfortunantly i wasnt able to control for air quality, global warming and my uncanny ability to answer your response as a smart arse.

[Tristan95]

I hear these peptide fracture derived from mexican sweet potatoes in the early 1900s are pretty good

[Outside backer]

lots of advertising in here lol

[aaronuconn]

Thanks, there goes our next product

I don't think people are ready for an endurance enhancer + carb blocker all-in-one product yet anyways.

[Mike McCandless]

$$ is the reason for many companies here (obviously not talking about the big ones). I would LOVE to conduct trials on some of this stuff.

No. One, they aren't that expensive to do. It's a fractional cost compared to the sales and marketing companies do. Two, they don't do them because the products won't create a worthy response. Why spend the money on the chance it doesn't work out when you can just claim something is better without proving it? The number of structure function claim violators is insane. These people just haven't had the joy of an FDA/ftc visit.

You have to willing to say you are wrong to do studies. Just like me spending a fortune on some novel protein Supplements that didn't pan out. Didn't stop other companies from releasing similar products. Why do all that when you can just run sales every week.

If you had something novel enough to study I'm sure a study would be done. The only reason not to is fear it wouldn't work, period. The expense excuse doesn't hold these days. I've funded over 10 studies, I'm far from a 100 million dollar company. My model is not one most will follow and I get it. Much easier to make under dosed products, lots of marketing fluff and trolls supporting. It's a short term model, which is why company turn over is so high right now.

[Mike McCandless]

Should be about 6 weeks out if I recall correctly, will be longer for it to come here

Waiting on sample tabs to be real to confirm production ability. It's not an easy product to run. Sadly, might be a November release.

[afi140]

95% of companies consider R&D as having someone look at Pubmed in hopes of finding something. There is almost zero money spent towards actual product/ingredient innovation.

The only innovation I would expect from most companies is typical bull**** we always see. Referencing some random study that has nothing to do with real world application and claiming they reinvented the wheel. They'll spend exactly 0 dollars to prove their new gadget does anything. Isn't it amazing how some companies are always "innovating" yet refuse to spend 50-100k to actually prove that in a real world setting? Don't worry, they're good "bro's".

All of that said, we have a ton of things coming out. We've spent 4 years funding all types of research. The culmination of which will be seen over the next 8-9 months as we do new product releases. Around end of year we will release the most effective intraworkout that exists, period. There will be real data, with real humans, doing real work. Such a novel concept. The question will be, do consumers actually care or will they chase the same crap that's always on sale that has zero data. Guess we'll find out .

kind of like when primaforce released dendorbium because of the immediate craze bandwagon?

i like scivation and primaforce but it's all about money in the end.

[NEBinAK]

Waiting on sample tabs to be real to confirm production ability. It's not an easy product to run. Sadly, might be a November release.

Ouch that bumps it back quite a bit, noted

[Mike McCandless]

kind of like when primaforce released dendorbium because of the immediate craze bandwagon?

i like scivation and primaforce but it's all about money in the end.

It's a commodity with no claims attached to it. To compare that to a multi ingredient formula with inaccurate and incorrect claims on it, totally different animal. Our Dendrobium had no amphetamine in it so it was not a commercial success.

[compan]

It's a commodity with no claims attached to it. To compare that to a multi ingredient formula with inaccurate and incorrect claims on it, totally different animal. Our Dendrobium had no amphetamine in it so it was not a commercial success.

It's comical how much truth the bold has.

[afi140]

It's a commodity with no claims attached to it. To compare that to a multi ingredient formula with inaccurate and incorrect claims on it, totally different animal. Our Dendrobium had no amphetamine in it so it was not a commercial success.

agreed completely-however, it was released with zero R&D (although there was anecdotal feedback from your team iirc) on the sole basis of making money-which is what you say all companies are doing today. I understand the difference between single ingredient vs multi ingredient formulas etc. i know it was sold at a very low cost and probably sold very little. My point is that it was released with in the same manner in which you are criticizing these companies-even if it was a single ingredient low cost product. most of the companies today have one "new" ingredient like dendrobium and the rest of the formula is a clone to thousands of other products out there (and i agree with your criticism completely and cant wait for the new scivation products backed with studies-it just seems a little pot calling kettle-just being honest)

[Vinny82]

agreed completely-however, it was released with zero R&D (although there was anecdotal feedback from your team iirc) on the sole basis of making money-which is what you say all companies are doing today. I understand the difference between single ingredient vs multi ingredient formulas etc. i know it was sold at a very low cost and probably sold very little. My point is that it was released with in the same manner in which you are criticizing these companies-even if it was a single ingredient low cost product. most of the companies today have one "new" ingredient like dendrobium and the rest of the formula is a clone to thousands of other products out there (and i agree with your criticism completely and cant wait for the new scivation products backed with studies-it just seems a little pot calling kettle-just being honest)

Everyone at the end of the day has to make money. Scivation/Primaforce aren't the bad guys here, look at their line-ups, Alcar, BA, Agmatine, Caffeine, all standard, for the most part, proven ingredients. They aren't making outrageous claims like a lot of the companies out there today. They aren't releasing useless herbal extracts and claiming they are the next big thing. I mean we have companies like AS putting out Amentoflavone which IMO doesn't do chit after using it for 2 months over this winter, countless other reviewers agree, yet they and the companies associated with them are still praised as innovators and everyone loves their products, yet not a single real study was seen. Its the supplement industry, at the end of the day you have to make money to stay afloat, I think Mike is doing it in the most ethical way possible, in an industry full of snakes.

[afi140]

K sooooo amento and dendrobium- call it a wash? Idk if you're bashing or comparing them to PES or what? I appreciate what both companies do and they're means in bringing new products to the forefront-but to act like scivation/primaforce hasn't done the exact same thing they're bashing simply isn't true.

[Vinny82]

K sooooo amento and dendrobium- call it a wash? Idk if you're bashing or comparing them to PES or what? I appreciate what both companies do and they're means in bringing new products to the forefront-but to act like scivation/primaforce hasn't done the exact same thing they're bashing simply isn't true.

Plenty of companies came out with Dendrobium, it was in literally every new pre-workout on the market last year and Scivation was one of a handful who sold it as a standalone ingredient. They also didn't bring it to the market and claim it did anything, simply just sourced and sold it. If you look at the rest of their line up its all mostly proven ingredients, they aren't trying to sell you snake oil, that's all I was saying.

[JohnBraithwaite]

could someone sum up the thread maybe kdd or coop seem to have a handle on this stuff, i've been on holiday & haven't the time to have followed the thread

1. what to look out for upcoming that'll work?

2. when will it be brought to market?

[Vinny82]

could someone sum up the thread maybe kdd or coop seem to have a handle on this stuff, i've been on holiday & haven't the time to have followed the thread

1. what to look out for upcoming that'll work

2. when will it be brought to market

You didn't really miss anything, just turned into truth on companies funding studies, ect. No real ingredients of promise were named, or at least from what I can tell because no one elaborated on what they do.

[Mike McCandless]

agreed completely-however, it was released with zero R&D (although there was anecdotal feedback from your team iirc) on the sole basis of making money-which is what you say all companies are doing today.

I surely didn't start a business to lose money.

I understand the difference between single ingredient vs multi ingredient formulas etc. i know it was sold at a very low cost and probably sold very little. My point is that it was released with in the same manner in which you are criticizing these companies-even if it was a single ingredient low cost product. most of the companies today have one "new" ingredient like dendrobium and the rest of the formula is a clone to thousands of other products out there (and i agree with your criticism completely and cant wait for the new scivation products backed with studies-it just seems a little pot calling kettle-just being honest)

These are two totally different things. One was released without claims and consumers can decide if they want to buy it. That's a far cry from intentionally selling under dosed products and making claims off different doses. The consumer gets to decide their dose when buying a commodity. You can say that dendrobium did nothing for you, but shockingly we sold a decent amount, but not enough for me to keep it long term.

I have issues when companies CLAIM something is superior, better, amazeballs because their high school formulator found something new on pubmed. They hope it's actually in the product but they have no QC so to be honest, they have no idea. I have ZERO issue with a company releasing ANY commodity with no claims on it. Letting the consumer decide what they want to take in what dose.

If you're going to claim you just produced the most amazing product ever, put some money behind it to see.

[JohnBraithwaite]

You didn't really miss anything, just turned into truth on companies funding studies, ect. No real ingredients of promise were named, or at least from what I can tell because no one elaborated on what they do.

so on par the the majority of threads about here, much ado about nothing

[ScivationLead]

I surely didn't start a business to lose money.

Mind=Blown

[afi140]

I have issues when companies CLAIM something is superior, better, amazeballs.....


If you're going to claim you just produced the most amazing product ever, put some money behind it to see.

Kind of like the psycho claims in "stage 3" I mean. It says the product is ANCHORED to dendrobium. That is quite a claim on what your formula is centered around. I'm not arguing so I'll just leave this here.



STAGE 3: POSSESSED COGNITIVE BLEND
Possessed Cognitive Blend performs a commonly overlooked critical function: the interplay between mental and physical performance. Without over-relying on the crutch of stimulants, Scivation Psycho exploits a modest amount of caffeine by anchoring it to ample mental enhancers like Dendrobium nobile extract and Sceletium tortuosum, with the resultant cognitive cocktail cast into the vascular torrent created by the Blow-Up Blend. By not only providing straight-line acceleration, but handling and mind-muscle connectivity as well, the Possessed Cognitive Blend brooms away your pre-workout cobwebs and delivers focus, sustained mental energy, and “over-clocks” your neurons to stretch any workout to its full potential. The Possessed Cognitive Blend is a harsh, full-fingered slap to the face coupled to a keenly focused, skin-crawling rage giving you the drive to execute your workout like a true Scivation Psycho. Scivation Psycho instills the only mindset that allows you to dismantle any and every training obstacle in your way. So scoop it up, strap it on, push through the door and check yourself in. Scratch or scrawl your name on the list with an elite few who train with the mindset of a psycho.