Friend wants me to try Vegan

[gainmusclefast]

friends says i will thank him
says i need to try it for atleast 2 months
is it hard to make the transition to vegan?

[desslok]

friends says i will thank him
says i need to try it for atleast 2 months
is it hard to make the transition to vegan?

Depends how easily you can get brainwashed into pointless things.

[Gxp23]

Why does he want you to try vegan?

Why bother just because your friend wants you to?

[BeauFlexington]

Ask if you can buy back your introduction to him.

[gainmusclefast]

Why does he want you to try vegan?

Why bother just because your friend wants you to?

just for fun i guess, i am up to trying it just to see if it does in fact make me feel really good or like crap

[necon76]

Find better friends.

[Flagaba]

My guess is that it will be harder than simply switching to a vegetarian diet. I find it much easier and convenient to get protein from animal sources like meat and dairy, I think vegetarians can do pretty well when it comes to fitness (which I assume you have as an interest) but vegans may have to check their diet much more.

Why does your friend say you'll thank him? In fact, why does he want you to try it in the first place? What are his arguments in favor of a vegan diet?

EDIT: Just read that it's probably just for fun and to see if you'll like it...I guess you can stop whenever you want but I think two months can pass by pretty slowly if you have a diet that could possibly make you feel awful.

[hwa12]

I don't think there's anything wrong with trying a new thing, but I would advise you to take extra caution to get adequate nutrients, especially protein and vitamins/minerals commonly found in animal products. A multivitamin and something like pea protein supplement may be advisable.

[Mdenatale]

just for fun i guess, i am up to trying it just to see if it does in fact make me feel really good or like crap

Do you feel bad now? If not then why take on such a restrictive diet?

[gainmusclefast]

Do you feel bad now? If not then why take on such a restrictive diet?

no i feel fine, no real reason.

[XinApoK]

1. cook bacon
2. throw cooked bacon at friend
3. invoke 5 second rule and enjoy pork at its finest

[UltimateWarrior]

Tell him you want him to eat meat for two months once you've tried his diet for two months. Friendship is a two way street.

[ironmaniac508]

No its not hard, here are some suggestions I have if you are actually going to follow through with it.

1. Slowly transition into the diet
2. Take a B12 vitamin pill
3. Consider taking a plant based, generally algae, EPA/DHA pill
4. Consume a large variety of plant based protein sources to get all your essential amino acids

These are some of the basics, PM me if you have any specific questions related to this topic.

[hwa12]

3. Consider taking a plant based, generally algae, EPA/DHA pill

Why though? EPA/DHA aren't necessary; hopefully his diet should be providing ample ALA, which is the only essential omega-3, and can be converted into DHA/EPA as needed. I'm aware EPA/DHA have several claimed benefits but is it really worth supplementing (algal supplements are normally expensive) when there's no proven benefit over ALA.

I'm probably just overly skeptical of marketing hype over EPA/DHA/fish oil.

[yoojungl]

I tried going vegan but it was so hard >< Being vegan made it so hard to get protein into my diet

[jinkty]

Why though? EPA/DHA aren't necessary; hopefully his diet should be providing ample ALA, which is the only essential omega-3, and can be converted into DHA/EPA as needed. I'm aware EPA/DHA have several claimed benefits but is it really worth supplementing (algal supplements are normally expensive) when there's no proven benefit over ALA.

I'm probably just overly skeptical of marketing hype over EPA/DHA/fish oil.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/res...n-adults.html/
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/a-p...y-fats-part-2/

Negged. EPA and DHA are certainly necessary and relying on your body to convert ALA to EPA/DHA as your sole source is dangerous and stupid.
Not going to go into LA being converted to AA from a lack of animal product (and peanut oil) but people that don't eat animal product should get regular bloodwork until they have their diet sorted.

No proven benefit to eating EPA/DHA in your diet over a diet that lacks it??? That's straight up lies mang.

[hwa12]

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/res...n-adults.html/
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/a-p...y-fats-part-2/

Negged. EPA and DHA are certainly necessary and relying on your body to convert ALA to EPA/DHA as your sole source is dangerous and stupid.
Not going to go into LA being converted to AA from a lack of animal product (and peanut oil) but people that don't eat animal product should get regular bloodwork until they have their diet sorted.

No proven benefit to eating EPA/DHA in your diet over a diet that lacks it??? That's straight up lies mang.

See articles
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/omega-3/
http://alanaragon.com/fish-oil.html

As a side note, there’s a widespread belief that ALA from flaxseed is worthless for increasing EPA/DHA since the conversion is inefficient. However, Harper’s team recently saw 3g ALA/day (from 5.2g flaxseed oil) raise plasma EPA levels by 60% at the end of a 12-week trial [22].

My current interpretation of the science is that ALA is important to nutrition because it is an essential fatty acid, and that at least part of its benefits come from its conversion to EPA and DHA. I don’t advocate that vegans take n-3 supplements if they are getting ALA from vegetable oils, vegetables, walnuts, and other vegetarian sources as described above.

Neither EPA nor DHA are essential fatty acids. This is a fact of human physiology; consult a textbook if you do not believe me. ALA and LA are the only two essential fatty acids. There's no evidence that definitively shows DHA/EPA supplementation to be necessary or beneficial in the context of sufficient ALA intake.

In fact, in Alan's article there is even evidence discussed of excess DHA/EPA supplementation having negative effects

Thies and colleagues examined the 12-week effect of various fatty acid supplement mixes on healthy subjects [19]. Various blends of placebo oil and oils rich in ALA, GLA, AA, DHA, or EPA (720mg) + DHA (280mg) were compared. Total fat intake from the 9-capsule dose was 4 g/d. The EPA/DHA treatment was the only one that had a negative effect on immunity, significantly decreasing natural killer cell activity by 48%. This effect was reversed after 4 weeks of ceasing intake of the supplement.

Next time ask before you neg -- there may be more to the story that what you've heard.

[jinkty]

Did you even bother to peep my links? I never said they were essential fats, in fact I was talking about them being synthesized from ALA which is why they're not essential. EPA/DHA is essential to healthy functioning, which is what I was getting at by saying it's essential.
I haven't got the will to read through the first study you linked, but there were no changes in DHA at all, only EPA. (it goes ALA>EPA>DHA if you didn't know)
Even supplementing with EPA barely raises DHA levels. Your body is not as self-sustaining as you're insinuating.

The fact you're even talking about "sufficient ALA intake" as if it's even possible to do that when you're hitting your fat minimum is one thing, but you keep saying there's no evidence than an increase in EPA/DHA is beneficial. I'm not even going to link you any studies because there are soooooo many studies in favour of what I'm saying. Can you show me studies that show ALA directly helps the body outside of it's metabolisation to EPA?

[Mrpb]

Negged.

Hwa12 is engaging in a rational debate and supplying arguments for his view. You may disagree with him but that's not what the neg function is for.

[hwa12]

Did you even bother to peep my links? I never said they were essential fats, in fact I was talking about them being synthesized from ALA which is why they're not essential. EPA/DHA is essential to healthy functioning, which is what I was getting at by saying it's essential.
I haven't got the will to read through the first study you linked, but there were no changes in DHA at all, only EPA. (it goes ALA>EPA>DHA if you didn't know)
Even supplementing with EPA barely raises DHA levels. Your body is not as self-sustaining as you're insinuating.

The fact you're even talking about "sufficient ALA intake" as if it's even possible to do that when you're hitting your fat minimum is one thing, but you keep saying there's no evidence than an increase in EPA/DHA is beneficial. I'm not even going to link you any studies because there are soooooo many studies in favour of what I'm saying. Can you show me studies that show ALA directly helps the body outside of it's metabolisation to EPA?

There's no real point in responding to this other than saying to read over the articles we've both referenced thoroughly.

I did look at your articles, and I'll say that I think the two articles I referenced provide a more orthodox, comprehensive understanding; it's not the first time I've seen one of Lyle's articles voice an anomalous or unorthodox stance, for example when he recommends 1.5g/lb protein suggesting intakes of 300-400g per day for strength athletes ( http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/mus...athletes.html/ )

I think reading through both of the links would just about answer the other questions you posed here, but you say you don't have the will to.

[hwa12]

I will give some of your points a go anyway.

I never said they were essential fats, in fact I was talking about them being synthesized from ALA which is why they're not essential. EPA/DHA is essential to healthy functioning, which is what I was getting at by saying it's essential.

I was responding to your statement

EPA and DHA are certainly necessary and relying on your body to convert ALA to EPA/DHA as your sole source is dangerous and stupid.

Necessary implies essential.

As a thinking point, there have been countless individuals and cultures without access to seafood (the main source of EPA/DHA) that have thrived throughout human history.

Can you show me studies that show ALA directly helps the body outside of it's metabolisation to EPA?

Whether or not ALA's benefit is due only to its conversion to EPA or to other factors is irrelevant -- that fact remains that it is able to be converted to the body if needed, and the study referenced by Alan Aragon shows that more EPA/DHA is not necessarily better. Further as mentioned in the Harvard reference , the current evidence seems to point to all omega-3s and omega-6s having protective cardiovascular properties, despite older ideas that a high ratio of 6s to 3s might negatively impact health.

The fact you're even talking about "sufficient ALA intake" as if it's even possible to do that when you're hitting your fat minimum is one thing, but you keep saying there's no evidence than an increase in EPA/DHA is beneficial.

I think it's more than possible if not easy to reach sufficient ALA intake with a normal diet without supplementation. A single 1oz serving of walnuts, for example, exceeds the USDA's established RDA of 1.7g ALA/day. Several vegetable foods provide smaller amounts, and some provide more.

I'm also not saying that EPA/DHA cannot be beneficial in and of itself; I am saying that for a healthy individual there is no proven benefit to supplementing EPA/DHA on top of adequate ALA.

I also want to point out that my original post regarding this was in reference to buying an expensive algal supplement -- I was saying it's not worth the cost to spend a lot of money on something that will not necessarily provide benefit over what can be attained with a normal diet.

The point of the nutrition forum is sharing and gaining knowledge. People can disagree. It does not mean people should disrespect each other.

[Mrpb]

For an interesting article that challenges the acclaimed benefits of omega 3 supplementation: http://chriskresser.com/when-it-come...-is-not-better

PS. I don't think Chris Kresser is generally a very reliable source but he makes a couple of good arguments in this article in my opinion.

[hwa12]

For an interesting article that challenges the acclaimed benefits of omega 3 supplementation: http://chriskresser.com/when-it-come...-is-not-better

PS. I don't think Chris Kresser is generally a very reliable source but he makes a couple of good arguments in this article in my opinion.

Thanks for providing the info. I think an implication behind these articles is that while there may be benefit to fish oil (and this benefit depends on context), there is also a lot of hype.

[respawn]

Would love it if Lyle Posted in here. Him and Alan are great.

[jinkty]

Hwa12 is engaging in a rational debate and supplying arguments for his view. You may disagree with him but that's not what the neg function is for.

I didn't neg him for any of his replies to me, I negged him for saying EPA/DHA aren't necessary.

Necessary implies essential.

I literally explained the second thing you quoted in the first quote. I didn't say they were essential fatty acids in that quote either, I said they're necessary. If they're not necessary that would make ALA redundant. I already explained the difference between essential and not - just because something isn't essential, doesn't mean it's not essential to healthy functioning, and you're foolish to expect your body can provide itself optimal amounts.

Whether or not ALA's benefit is due only to its conversion to EPA or to other factors is irrelevant

wat

that fact remains that it is able to be converted to the body if needed

hurr durr why eat carbs when gluconeogenesis exists, your body will convert whats needed

the study referenced by Alan Aragon shows that more EPA/DHA is not necessarily better.

Who would have guessed too much is bad for you???

Further as mentioned in the Harvard reference , the current evidence seems to point to all omega-3s and omega-6s having protective cardiovascular properties, despite older ideas that a high ratio of 6s to 3s might negatively impact health.

Link went into that so I cbf commenting. I don't know why you felt the need to bring this up but you're spot on here.

I think it's more than possible if not easy to reach sufficient ALA intake with a normal diet without supplementation. A single 1oz serving of walnuts, for example, exceeds the USDA's established RDA of 1.7g ALA/day.

Did you misread me? I was saying it's practically impossible to be insufficient in ALA if you're hitting your fat minimum.

I'm also not saying that EPA/DHA cannot be beneficial in and of itself; I am saying that for a healthy individual there is no proven benefit to supplementing EPA/DHA on top of adequate ALA.

Except that's exactly what you said.. "There's no evidence that definitively shows DHA/EPA supplementation to be necessary or beneficial in the context of sufficient ALA intake"
You still haven't addressed the gap between converting ALA to EPA which we're decent at and converting EPA to DHA which we barely even do. You keep hammering on about ALA being converted to EPA and haven't even addressed DHA. Show me a study showing DHA levels increasing from ALA/EPA/anything other than DHA itself.

The point of the nutrition forum is sharing and gaining knowledge. People can disagree. It does not mean people should disrespect each other.

Agreed, and I see no disrespect in disagreeing with someones opinion. If you're going to disregard studies and say "there's no proof to x" when there's ample, and discourage something that could improve someones health based on a shaky hypothesis-
I feel it would actually be disrespectful of me to just let information I see to be wrong taken on by people, yourself included.

[Antz1980]

Getting off topic here guys....

OP, give it a go, but do your own research....constantly do research. Don't just listen to your friends "advice" only, learn about it everyday. Things like Calcium and Iron need to be monitored too, at least in the first few weeks/months but also know what both enhance and inhibit absorption.

Enjoy the ride mayne

[necon76]

I didn't neg him for any of his replies to me, I negged him for saying EPA/DHA aren't necessary.

Negging for a difference of opinion is not how things are done. Carrying on like an ass on the other hand....

[Mrpb]

I didn't neg him for any of his replies to me, I negged him for saying EPA/DHA aren't necessary.

But they aren't necessary in the diet.

Lyle's opinion is that they're necessary for optimal health, which is another discussion.

And yes I think it would be wise to have a rational discussion before you (ab)use the neg function.

[rhadam]

Can we please get back to laughing at vegans? Thanks.

[coconuttree2009]

It's not very hard to transition to vegan diet if you don't mind put some effort as extra planning is needed. Going out for meals becomes more difficult as most places offer vegetarian option but not vegan. Plus you would probably need to rely on vegan protein supplements to get your protein requirements.