My theory on god. Do you agree?

[KMCthrice]

Itt op just watched prometheus

[lookiamapollo]

In response to OP:

A traditional and still popular notion is that the world is so complex that it needed God to create it. Our origins fascinated even ancient societies and various myths described creation. Monotheists started from ancient times to claim God was necessary as the Creator. This has continued through Thomas Aquinas and William Paley even to Antony Flew who eventually converted to theism because he came to see a need for a creator God as designer of our world.

However the notion that a sophisticated world needs God as its Creator and designer is logically fallacious in two major ways.

Even the most famous design argument and analogy, that of William Paley (1743-1805) who wrote just as a sophisticated watch (unlike a rock) implies a watchmaker, a complex world implies a Creator who is God, has this fallacy. Suppose, as Paley did, that a watch implies a watchmaker, that watchmaker is not God and is not immortal. Likewise even supposing the world has a Creator, that Creator need be neither God nor even immortal. Furthermore, unlike in Paley’s day we are aware not just of evolutionary processes but also of robotic manufacture and artificial computer-like intelligences. Yes, there is a mystery concerning our ultimate genesis, but God is not needed as the solution.

The other fallacy is if one claims the world required a more sophisticated being, God, to create it, one is attempting to solve a problem by creating a yet greater problem. If we are in need of a creator God who is more powerful and greater than us to bring us into existence, that greater God being more wondrous than us would be even more in need than us of some Creator to create and explain it! Indeed as, unlike us, God would be immortally God, it could not develop nor evolve to its present glory over time but must be from the very beginning omnipotent and omniscient – an extraordinary phenomenon, far more inexplicable than even us. Far from solving or explaining the problem of our ultimate origin, the concept of God is actually massively enhancing the problem.

So the notion that God is needed to or even can satisfactorily explain existence as we see it is logically fallacious.

/thread

[eriksatie]

"Everything must have a creator" is an observation limited to space and time. If there is a god and he is outside of space and time then who says that the same rules apply? Outside of space and time, would laws of motion still apply? So why would that?

If god exists then I'm sure that our finite minds wouldn't be able to comprehend it as it would be infinite.

[iceypain]

Though I disagree with which is more credible, believe it or not you and I are on the same page here.

fair enough. do you also believe that testimony is stronger evidence than first hand experience?

[Treeling]

What the fuk.

Really? Everything? There are plenty of things physicists are not sure about. A single subject could have hundreds of different physicists groups defending a different position.

This new wave of "atheist religious" *******s piss me off. People like you make real atheists and agnostics have a bad image. Please stay out of these subjects if you have no idea about what you are talking about.

Everything I talked about(the 3 points I made) is understood. But there is plenty of stuff that physicists don't understand and can't come to consensus on(quantum physics interpretations for example). You misread the quote.
I just stated to not ask unanswerable questions and don't answer them with God. I didn't even say if I believe in God you moron. Strong deduction skills/10

[TradesBrah]

I was thinking last night that if there really is some all knowing creator, how do we know that the universe and all of the planets, stars and galaxies in it aren't the brain cells (or some kind of equivalent) of this god being?

[nzgs]

I believe something created the creator. And something created the creators creator, and so on. Which, I admit, is my brain trying to make sense of it all. I understand your view, but how can the universe just be there though? I honestly would like to know your explanation, because my brain just can't grasp that concept.

You believe that everything must have a creator, this is an unfounded assumption. You have this assumption because you WANT to believe in it. Hence validating your beliefs. If you cared about the truth you would remove this assumption and examine whether events need a "creator". We know this is not the case in the biological world.

[cresros]

You misread the quote.

That is possible. English is not my main language, so that could've been it.

I'm sorry if that was the problem.

[retiredrunner]

Why does everything need to have a creator? For a brain that cannot fathom the concept of infinity, that's a pretty bold assertion.

[KyDrumGuns]

That would be true if faith wasn't made by everything you were thought until this day. Would you have faith if you didn't even know what god was, if no one ever told you what religion is, what whatever else your "faith" covers? You think you would just simply think of that and started believing in it even if there were absolutely no other things stimulating you to have "faith"? You think you'd be the first? If so, that makes sense. If not, it doesn't. Of course you can choose any answer to post in here, but just think about it yourself. I'm not saying that christians are wrong, I am just arguing about something they preach. I could be wrong too, it is just my opinion (I feel the need to point that out because some people get pretty angry about what you think, I'm just trying to have a nice, enlightning conversation that could teach us all something in here, but that's pretty rare)

I truly am taking in what you are saying with an open mind. Having conversations like this are so rare, so I thank you for actually trying to converse rather than attack.

Now to what you said, the idea that somebody could have faith even if they weren't introduced to God: I honestly do not know. What I can tell you is that I honestly believe that if I were raised Christian and spent all my life without experiencing things that give me something to base my faith on, that I wouldn't be in this thread telling you that I am a Christian. This may be vague to you but I can't think of a better way to answer.

Teaching faith is the groundwork, experiencing what is taught is what truly strengthens faith.

[Treeling]

That is possible. English is not my main language, so that could've been it.

I'm sorry if that was the problem.

It's ok, rereading it the "everything" wasn't properly followed by a subject(the 3 things I mentioned). But all good.

[truthhurts]

"engineered us" ???

may want to do some studying on evolution.

Its a very human way of thinking to assume there has to e a 'creator' , which is exactly what the problem is.

[CannibalJester]

"engineered us" ???

may want to do some studying on evolution.

Its a very human way of thinking to assume there has to e a 'creator' , which is exactly what the problem is.

truth hurts

[KyDrumGuns]

fair enough. do you also believe that testimony is stronger evidence than first hand experience?

That is a very good question. I'm no philosopher or Christianity buff, but I believe that they work hand-in-hand. I realize that this is probably not the either/or answer that you were looking for, but I have never really given it that much thought.

[LurkingSince09]

I just want to state that I've absolutely enjoyed this thread. It's a joy to discuss these sort of things with people of opposing viewpoints. It always makes you rethink what you may have thought you knew. I for one am sitting here rethinking my theory. Maybe there is no creator. But that creates more questions in my mind. How did it all happen? Where did it all start? Our universe is expanding. How can something that is infinite be expanding?

[SwoleJoseph]

I agree with you and your "alien" theory.. Someone somewhere down the line changed our DNA .. Therefore creating us..

not srs

[KyDrumGuns]

I just want to state that I've absolutely enjoyed this thread. It's a joy to discuss these sort of things with people of opposing viewpoints. It always makes you rethink what you may have thought you knew. I for one am sitting here rethinking my theory. Maybe there is no creator. But that creates more questions in my mind. How did it all happen? Where did it all start? Our universe is expanding. How can something that is infinite be expanding?

Having an honest discussion that provokes thought rather than attempting to win a debate is always a refreshing thing.

[KyDrumGuns]

"engineered us" ???

may want to do some studying on evolution.

Its a very human way of thinking to assume there has to e a 'creator' , which is exactly what the problem is.

Problem? Believing that there is a creator is a problem?

[VinMichael]

If anything, I believe Jesus Christ is the son of God. Beyond that, I have no idea.

[Tune5k]

wizard on the duncan trussell vid^^

check this one out:

[SilverSpork]

I'm not going to argue with anyone because it is pointless in this type of discussion, but I will chime in.

I am starting to come to terms with that there may in fact be a creator. I have spent a lot of time listening to both sides of the argument. I will admit that most of the 'creationist's' (Christians) arguments are flawed. For example, irreducible complexity, global flood, and the crock of **** about how the Grand Canyon formed rapidly. There are many more.

I've spent most of my life learning about geology, it's an interest of mine (and my occupation), as well as having a strong interest in all natural sciences. Looking back, I think I read all of these books, watched all of these video, with the wrong perspective. I had the perspective of someone who holds a narrow view of creationism - basically the Christian God. I would absorb all of this new information, and because it conflicted with what the Bible has said, or at least what the most popular interpretations of it are, I would laugh and throw the entire notion of a creator out of the window.

Science can't and will not ever be able to explain everything. I could go on and on but basically I think science goes hand in hand with the existence of a creator. Evolution is the mechanism that was created, stars creating elements, etc. We cannot fully comprehend the concept a creator, just as we cannot fully comprehend the notion of infinity. They could be one and the same.

The key is to have an open mind. I see and hear a lot of people with their minds made up and ignoring information, or reviewing it initially with a bias. Lot off butthurt Christians running around, and a lot of butthurt Atheists as well.

[Benny_Lava]

This is a fuking retarded post. Just because your stupid ass brain can't comprehend how the universe started, based on your life experience with earth sized events (not microscopic or macroscopic (quantum effects and relativity)) (what our brains have evolved to understand), does not give your opinion based on nothing any merit whatsoever

nor yours


and OP.. who created the creator? something had to come from nothing at some point in time. thats the flaw I see in your argument. OR, the universe just always was, thus not requiring a creator. while i agree with that twat that I quoted, I don't need to be a gigantic ass about it. just because your mundane, minuscule, inferior, infantile, and insignificant mind (no insult that goes for anyone on this planet) can't wrap your head around it, doesn't mean you need to believe in a "God" for it all to make sense. thats precisely why there are religions. because people need to know, and come up with an imaginary friend to fill that void. being one of those people is giving up.

[KyDrumGuns]

I'm not going to argue with anyone because it is pointless in this type of discussion, but I will chime in.

I am starting to come to terms with that there may in fact be a creator. I have spent a lot of time listening to both sides of the argument. I will admit that most of the 'creationist's' (Christians) arguments are flawed. For example, irreducible complexity, global flood, and the crock of **** about how the Grand Canyon formed rapidly. There are many more.

I've spent most of my life learning about geology, it's an interest of mine (and my occupation), as well as having a strong interest in all natural sciences. Looking back, I think I read all of these books, watched all of these video, with the wrong perspective. I had the perspective of someone who holds a narrow view of creationism - basically the Christian God. I would absorb all of this new information, and because it conflicted with what the Bible has said, or at least what the most popular interpretations of it are, I would laugh and throw the entire notion of a creator out of the window.

Science can't and will not ever be able to explain everything. I could go on and on but basically I think science goes hand in hand with the existence of a creator. Evolution is the mechanism that was created, stars creating elements, etc. We cannot fully comprehend the concept a creator, just as we cannot fully comprehend the notion of infinity. They could be one and the same.

The key is to have an open mind. I see and hear a lot of people with their minds made up and ignoring information, or reviewing it initially with a bias. Lot off butthurt Christians running around, and a lot of butthurt Atheists as well.

I admire your open-mindedness and thought. Would rep measlies if I wasn't out. Great post.

[Benny_Lava]

Itt op just watched prometheus

I got really baked after I watched prometheus while listening to Adagio in D minor and shed a tear. How insignificant and minuscule we are is just mind shattering. Was a good tear.

[SilverSpork]

Weird **** like that which you prolly can't even imagine but everything is explained and physicists understand it.

Even the top Physicists themselves will admit they hardly understand anything. There is a saying, 'if you think you understand Quantum Mechanics, you don't understand Quantum Mechanics.'

[Benny_Lava]

Even the top Physicists themselves will admit they hardly understand anything. There is a saying, 'if you think you understand Quantum Mechanics, you don't understand Quantum Mechanics.'

^^^ This

nobody on this planet is even scratching the surface yet.

[jon1995]

False dichotomy. You ignore the most likely possibility; that the universe was created via natural processes analogous to the creation of complex life. Your "theory" has a load of unfounded assumptions in it and is inherently biased towards there being a creator. You aren't actually interested in the truth, you just want to validate your own superstitions.

what made those natural processes analogous

inb4 they are natural, do you not know what natural means

I agree with you and your "alien" theory.. Someone somewhere down the line changed our DNA .. Therefore creating us..

I agree with this

I think there are all sorts of lesser gods. Like bosses at work.

Think about it. if you want to call in sick or have a flat tire, you dont call the guy who created the company, you call your supervisor. They are in charge of a handful of people and report to other bosses.

Every aspect of society has this structure so we had to have gotten it from some place. Why would gods be any different?

This is why some people say they dont get their prays answered. Just like your boss has to deal with certain people more then others. Ever notice how that one girl can always come in late and they never say anything? same thing with gods.

Some people for whatever reason have their ear and other people dont.

Interesting (srs)

Or perhaps we're in a simulation. Or a simulation within a simulation. I like Nick Bostrum's 'theory' or thought experiment.

I have thought about this as well

I am surprised no one has mentioned we might live in a multiverse with scientific theories such as infinite universes, parallel universes, bubble universes, mathematical universes, and daughter universes[

[Purplekoolaid]

nor yours


and OP.. who created the creator? something had to come from nothing at some point in time. thats the flaw I see in your argument. OR, the universe just always was, thus not requiring a creator. while i agree with that twat that I quoted, I don't need to be a gigantic ass about it. just because your mundane, minuscule, inferior, infantile, and insignificant mind (no insult that goes for anyone on this planet) can't wrap your head around it, doesn't mean you need to believe in a "God" for it all to make sense. thats precisely why there are religions. because people need to know, and come up with an imaginary friend to fill that void. being one of those people is giving up.

If you go stating an opinion, and you know nothing about religion OR the proposed theory on how the universe is started.... well..... Better to Remain Silent and Be Thought a Fool than to Speak and Remove All Doubt

Grats to you if you can stomach his lamentable ignorance

I am surprised no one has mentioned we might live in a multiverse with scientific theories such as infinite universes, parallel universes, bubble universes, mathematical universes, and daughter universes[

This is about 20 IQ points above anyone in this thread, and something OP has most likely never even heard of

[SilverSpork]

I am surprised no one has mentioned we might live in a multiverse with scientific theories such as infinite universes, parallel universes, bubble universes, mathematical universes, and daughter universes[

Was going to mention M Theory. Crazy stuff, anything that can happen, any possibility, has happened......is happening, and will happen all in separate universes co-existing with one another.

I guess technically they wouldn't co-exist, dunno lol. Right now I am sitting here typing this, having buttsex with three Asian women, and walking through a solid brick wall, all at this moment in different universes. My mind goes to all **** about now.

[TreyTrey]

stupidest post i've ever read OP, srs

if god or some sort of omnipotent being exists, 'it' is both watching and not watching everything all at once.