Muscle memory or broscience?

[pbohart]

I joined a gym a year ago but all those pics are from Bowflex. I hate to say that because people are always slamming them, but it worked ok for me. Of course I didn't do the 20 minutes three times a week program

Have you sent those pictures to the marketing guys at Bowflex?

Jared:Subway::Stillfit:Bowflex

[Brackneyc]

I believe there is something to it. This particular case looks to be more about nutrition and hard work than MM.

[FishChris]

Well, I certainly believe muscle memory is real..... and since I was never 10% as swole as I wanted to be.... Doh !
But you should have seen Stillfit at 25 ! (or did you post those ?)

Anyway, a few things I wanted to say > Stillfit looks even bigger / badder in person !

Secondly, dude, take off that stinkin' tank top ! {can you guys believe he is self conscious because he's up from an uber lean 4%, or something crazy, to a whopping 8 or 9% BF ? I wish I were "fat" like that LOL} Dude, you look freaking great !

Oh, and yes, he got back to nearly where he is now on a Bow Flex.... Often my chair when I go over to visit

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Oh hey though, while I do totally believe in muscle memory, as it was mentioned earlier, I think another aspect that factors in to the equasion is, whatever genetics, workouts, etc, that played into you becoming huge before, are still there, and in effect now.

And Still fit, you will never convince me that you have poor genetics for building mass / cutting fat ! You and Zack Kahn too, right ? LOL

Peace,
Fish

[skazclaw]

it's muscle memory if u getting that tank from bowflex, rippetoe mentions this too in SS first few pages.

[pbohart]

Here is a meta-analysis that was done this year.

http://journals.lww.com/acsm-msse/Ab...dy_Mass.8.aspx

The conclusion is kind of obvious - heavy resistance training in older men significantly increased LBM (really?...who would thought it??)

Interesting thing, though, is the last line where they find evidence that LBM gains were most pronounced in individuals who had weight trained earlier in life (i.e. muscle memory)

[bigtallox]

Started training again last January and within 3 months my bench was up to 275 and I was squatting 315 for 5 reps.

IMHO there is muscle memory in terms of performing movements, but it's your brain that remembers not your muscles. If by muscle memory you're referring to remembering the size they used to be, it's broscience.

[bigtallox]

I know that whenever I come back from a break, the last one was for over a year, it doesn't take that long for my lifts to get back to their old levels. My bench and deadlifts are both the best they've ever been and my squats aren't that far behind.

Yes, but it should be called something like "muscle PERFORMANCE memory", which is different than what the OP is suggesting as "muscle SIZE memory". They are different, and one is real and the other isnt.

[induced_drag]

Yes, but it should be called something like "muscle PERFORMANCE memory", which is different than what the OP is suggesting as "muscle SIZE memory". They are different, and one is real and the other isnt.

I hear you....but what is compelling to me is how my body wants to get back to the LBM that I maintained earlier in life through resistance training. Even in spite of caloric deficit, I still gain muscle.

My most recent example is coming back, I dropped 20+lbs of fat while making lean gains of 7-10lbs in 3 months...ON A DEFICIT of 1000 calories.

So you might say...that I am a natural and my body gains mass easily...well not true. It took me 5+ years to gain the mass the first time. I never gained more the 5-7 lbs in a year....let alone 7lbs in three months.

I can only go by what I have experienced and I dont think I am supernatural....

[truthandlife]

Stillfit, you look awesome. I hope you are "natural" and it actually looks like you are. I am sure you have a lot that accuse you of not being.

As for muscle memory, it is "real" as everyone has said. I entered a transformation contest a few years ago from Met-Rx and I did this in 7 months.



A lot of people accusing me of being "chemically enhanced" but I was completely natural during this competition. It was muscle memory and all the years of training for this. Most people cannot make this kind of transformation in a short amount of time unless they have a lot of years of training under their belt.

[JohnnyP122]

muscle memory has to be real cause are mind through experience learns how to cope and adapt to its environment and learns performed actions over experience also. and how we learn is through muscle/mind connections. take a gymnast for example. they exercise for a good 6 hours a day and get 10 plus hours of sleep. reason we need sleep is not just cause of muscle repair but because our brains go over what we did throughout the day a strengthen the connections we made. also by means of bone density and metabolism and water retention i think if your body has been there and done that it will cope much faster

[ArchAngel'73]

I do not believe muscle has memories but I do believe the fascial sheaths that have been stretched before are more readily capable of being stretched to previous experienced outward limits.

[cpatel23]

nice forearms

[Reality_Check]

I do not believe muscle has memories but I do believe the fascial sheaths that have been stretched before are more readily capable of being stretched to previous experienced outward limits.

I don't think anyone in this thread who claims to believe in "muscle memory" believes that muscles have memory. "Muscle memory" is simply a label, a name which we give to the phemomenon - in which when muscles undergo permanent (or at least long term) structural changes from hypertrophy they retain those changes even after they have atrophied and this primes them for more rapid hypertorphy next time. These long term structural changes include what you mention - stretched fascial sheeths but also increased numbers of myonuclei.

Note that in materials physics they use terms like shape memory alloy, smart metal, memory metal, without literally attributing powers of thought to metal, its the same with the term "muscle memory" for muscles.

[Karl_Hungus]

I don't think anyone in this thread who claims to believe in "muscle memory" believes that muscles have memory. "Muscle memory" is simply a label, a name which we give to the phemomenon - in which when muscles undergo permanent (or at least long term) structural changes from hypertrophy they retain those changes even after they have atrophied and this primes them for more rapid hypertorphy next time. These long term structural changes include what you mention - stretched fascial sheeths but also increased numbers of myonuclei.

Note that in materials physics they use terms like shape memory alloy, smart metal, memory metal, without literally attributing powers of thought to metal, its the same with the term "muscle memory" for muscles.

^^ This. I took 10 years off from lifting. When I came back to it, I had attained in about 4-5 months what had taken me 3-4 years to build previously (in terms of strength).

[IronCharles]

... I hope you are "natural" and it actually looks like you are.....

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I am curious as to why you hold this opinion. Why do you "hope" an internet stranger hasn't used PEDs? I'm also curious as to how you can judge "naturalness" by photographs?


As for the topic at hand, I agree with Brian:

I do not believe muscle has memories but I do believe the fascial sheaths that have been stretched before are more readily capable of being stretched to previous experienced outward limits.

I also believe that the myonuclei manufactured in response to hypertrophy training do not just disappear when the muscle tissue is catabolized from atrophy. I believe they are "refilled" when hypertrophic training recommences.

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2010/08/02/0913935107

[christos_swc]

I don't have the slightest doubt that what we call "muscle memory" exists.
I've been involved in many sports in the past, on and off, and any gains I made in muscularity and lost during the off years I regained within a couple of months with ease.
Specific muscles that I had trained a s a youngster through sports or at home for fun and were my pride and joy, exploded back to their old self as soon as they got near a weight.
It's not "bro science", it's how it works.
The body will not go over the same adaptation process twice.
It deliberately atrophies muscles that are not worked because it doesn't want to go through the pain of maintaining them if they are of no use.
The moment you find yourself in some sort of "danger" the body is familiar with from the past, it quickly returns to it's known state.

[induced_drag]

.......Why do you "hope" an internet stranger hasn't used PEDs? I'm also curious as to how you can judge "naturalness" by photographs?

I cant answer the first part because I did not make the statement.....Maybe because some come on here looking for attainable goals and inspiration in reaching them.

As for the second part....although there is no exact science, you can tell a whole lot from pictures. Enhanced trainees have a different look. They get different muscle development where just about everything gets big even muscles that are not often trained....neck as one example. There are also muscles in the body that respond differently to enhancement and those develop quite a bit which you generally dont see in natural trainees.

Here is an excerpt from Kelly Baggett explaining better:

What's also interesting is that the muscle generated from training and the muscle generated from anabolic hormones is somewhat different. Certain muscles groups have a greater preponderance of testosterone receptors and tend to develop disproportionately in men vs women or men on steroids vs natural trainees. These muscle groups include the neck and shoulders.



Additionally, a muscle will generally hypertrophy according to where the mechanical strain is highest (towards the muscle-tendon junction). Using anabolics or pubertal muscle growth will cause a more general hypertrophy however as the mechanism isn't 100% dependent on mechanical strain



If you take a close look at someone who has trained naturally a long time they will often look like a collection of bodyparts probably due in part to this difference. The traps, necks, and deltoids will often appear disproportionately underdeveloped then the quads, chest, etc.

[truthandlife]

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I am curious as to why you hold this opinion. Why do you "hope" an internet stranger hasn't used PEDs? I'm also curious as to how you can judge "naturalness" by photographs?

I am not trying to judge "naturalness." I just think it would be even more impressive if this transformation was all natural with no PED's....

It would inspire a lot of people if it was all natural (w/o PEDs). If PED's are involved then I wouldn't ask how he did it because I personally don't think that is an impressive feat.

[Kreigschwein]

Sports science has an episode confirming muscle memory. Made a basketball player shoot blind folded to see if he can still make his shots. he made 10/10 shots because of muscle memory.

[IronCharles]

If PED's are involved then I wouldn't ask how he did it because I personally don't think that is an impressive feat.

Well, the gentleman stated in an earlier post (which has since been deleted) that he was currently using assistance. So now you're not impressed? And you also said it looked like he was "natural", so I guess you're not really a good judge of that sort of thing, are you?


Oh, and by the way, your own personal transformation is very impressive to me. However, I will not judge you by how you may, or may not have achieved it. It takes hard work to lean out and put on mass. Regardless of your methods.

[induced_drag]

If PED's are involved then I wouldn't ask how he did it because I personally don't think that is an impressive feat.

I have to say that I agree with the above. With the use of certain "supplements" the build and maintain lean muscle balance is really tilted one way. I have seen what this stuff can help others do and in very short periods of time....so I am not all that "impressed" by it.

Now that does not mean that I am against them doing it....heck it is their body and they can do what they want....but as a lifetime natural lifter, I simply can not hope to emulate those type results...so I dont even consider them as legitimate.

In my 20's I struggled as one by one, many of my lifting buddies started "supplementing". They all puffed up huge....and I stayed where I was at....gaining almost nothing. I think I was close to my genetic potential at 195lb @9-10% at 5'9".

In the end, I am glad I made the decision to stay natural. I do not look down on people who dont....I just dont even consider their gains. I think comparing one's self to others accomplishments is a healthy way of motivation. Comparing one's self to altered trainees will not yield much in the way of realistic goals and will only serve as frustration. I can remember a few years back this topic came up with OldSuperman....

[stillfit]

Want to let you all know I also stated that no "suppliments" were used in any of those photos that were posted on this thread. So don't get off track.

[induced_drag]

Want to let you all know I also stated that no "suppliments" were used in any of those photos that were posted on this thread. So don't get off track.

No doubt! I remember you saying that earlier. I dont know what is more impressive...that or that you did it on a bowflex!

Awesome job and fantastic conditioning. To you maintain body comp more through diet alone or is there a lot of cardio in your routine?

[bhffs]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20713720

Abstract: Effects of previous strength training can be long-lived, even after prolonged subsequent inactivity, and retraining is facilitated by a previous training episode. Traditionally, such "muscle memory" has been attributed to neural factors in the absence of any identified local memory mechanism in the muscle tissue. We have used in vivo imaging techniques to study live myonuclei belonging to distinct muscle fibers and observe that new myonuclei are added before any major increase in size during overload. The old and newly acquired nuclei are retained during severe atrophy caused by subsequent denervation lasting for a considerable period of the animal's lifespan.

[Brackneyc]

I wonder if part of "MM" isn't just the trainee "knowing" what works for them, thus cutting out that awkward period (of several years for some) of finding what works for you.

Just a guess

[jayluk4600]

I believe in it. I had one lay off over the last 23 years and it was roughly 2 yr layoff. Without going into too much detail lets just say I drank myself into the gutter and bascially much lived on the street. It was not a pretty sight lol.

Anyhow when I returned to the gym it didnt take me but I would say 3 months to get right back and beyond where I was strength wise. 2 years isn't the longest layoff but its still a period of time in where I abused the living funk out of my body.

Its real.

[stillfit]

I wonder if part of "MM" isn't just the trainee "knowing" what works for them, thus cutting out that awkward period (of several years for some) of finding what works for you.

Just a guess

I am sure this is also a factor.

[christos_swc]

What's your opinion on the work you do in the gym while dieting?
After spending 3 months last year dieting down, I've decided I would not cut again in the following years and so I haven't this year, I don't want to waste any lifting time in the gym.
But does it really go to waste?
I mean not in terms of maintaining as much muscle as possible, you need to train.
I sure lost strength while dieting but very easily hit new PRs once I started eating again.
So while I was training and losing strength, perhaps somehow I was making gains!
I'm curious if the body is registering the training and once you give it the fuel it responds quicker than it would normally do.
So if I were to diet down again and start losing some strength for another 3 months, would I go back to were I was once I start eating or perhaps find that I'm actually even stronger?
Not sure if you're following me here.
I understand that we're talking about a small period of time here, just a few months so I guess people will have to think back to their first years of training to answer this one way or another.
Year after year gains slow down.
Do not want to hijack the thread, I think, if it were true, we'd be talking the same mechanism here probably.

[stillfit]

What's your opinion on the work you do in the gym while dieting?
After spending 3 months last year dieting down, I've decided I would not cut again in the following years and so I haven't this year, I don't want to waste any lifting time in the gym.
But does it really go to waste?
I mean not in terms of maintaining as much muscle as possible, you need to train.
I sure lost strength while dieting but very easily hit new PRs once I started eating again.
So while I was training and losing strength, perhaps somehow I was making gains!
I'm curious if the body is registering the training and once you give it the fuel it responds quicker than it would normally do.
So if I were to diet down again and start losing some strength for another 3 months, would I go back to were I was once I start eating or perhaps find that I'm actually even stronger?
Not sure if you're following me here.
I understand that we're talking about a small period of time here, just a few months so I guess people will have to think back to their first years of training to answer this one way or another.
Year after year gains slow down.
Do not want to hijack the thread, I think, if it were true, we'd be talking the same mechanism here probably.

When I diet down I don't change my workouts other than dropping one set from each exercise because of reduced cal intake. I train as heavy as possible so don't notice a big drop in strength. The slight drop seems to be beneficial for those aches and pains from bulking and pushing harder to heal for the next round. But true the strength comes back quick due to a cal surplus.

[mslman71]

To the original question - I sure as hell hope so. If I can even get back to 75% with my shoulder I intend to capitalize on 20 years of accumulated "memories." I have no anecdotal experience to date with muscle memory. I've never taken an extended break my entire adult life (greater than 12 days).