Back to Chest Ratio: 2 to 1

[BillyBatts]

Both my shoulders suffer from rotator cuff issues. My Chiropractor, who is also a strength coach, suggested that I do two back workouts per week and only one chest workout per week. The rationale offered is that "pulling" motions associated with back workouts assist the shoulders in their recovery because it is a form of therapeutic stretching. The "pushing and pressing" motions associated with chest workouts put more strain on the shoulders.

Anyone have thoughts or experience with working two back days for each chest day?

[Marius_Ursus]

Let me start out by saying I train movements, not bodyparts, so take what I'm about to write in that light.

A little over a year ago I had severe shoulder flexibility issues just like the ones you describe. Under advisement of a couple of people whose expertise in rehab and flexibility far outweighs mine, I started doing more posterior chain movements and cut my upper body pushes in half. A month later I was able to perform overhead squats and full snatches again.

In addition to the posterior chain training (deadlifts, , Romanian deadlifts, rows of all kind, power cleans, and power snatches), I performed chin tucks every day throughout the day and shoulder dislocations twice per week with a hand towel.

If you have any kind of forward roll of the shoulders or other pectoral-related impingement, yes, doubling up on the posterior chain pulls will be the most likely way to correct it.

[cowboybiker]

It seems to be working for me, but i've also incorperated yoga in my routine.

[Smelly bull]

Good Advice.

I had shoulder problems from August '10 till Janaury '11. In January I re-incorporated Rows, facepulls and better warmups exercises. Just like Marius and cowboybiker said, this worked for me.

Also, congrats on finding Chiropractor that gets it.

[lhprop1]

If you have any kind of forward roll of the shoulders or other pectoral-related impingement, yes, doubling up on the posterior chain pulls will be the most likely way to correct it.

THIS.

The main cause of shoulder injuries is poor posture caused by a weak mid-back. This is because everyone wants to be a bench press monkey and doesn't train their back enough. Strength imbalances lead to poor posture which in turn leads to injury.

[Karl_Hungus]

A little over a year ago I had severe shoulder flexibility issues just like the ones you describe. Under advisement of a couple of people whose expertise in rehab and flexibility far outweighs mine, I started doing more posterior chain movements and cut my upper body pushes in half. A month later I was able to perform overhead squats and full snatches again.

Same here. I had shoulder problems myself until I really worked on increasing my upper back strength. Push/pull strength imbalances is one of the most common problems I see in the gym...too bad so many of us have to learn this lesson the hard way.

[mslman71]

Your chiro is right, as are the other posters. I did quite a bit of damage to mine before getting this tidbit of advice, don't make the same mistake. Good luck.

[gbg]

Forgive me but when are people going to realize the importance of training and over training certain musculature?

How many threads and articles do you have to read before this carries over to the brain cells?

There are numerous post's on here about this very subject. Does anyone research an activity before they go ahead and do it? so much of what I see posted can be prevented with some simple steps.

[mslman71]

Forgive me but when are you people going to realize the importance of training and over training certain musculature?

How many threads and articles do you have to read before this carries over to the brain cells?

There are numerous post's on here about this very subject. Does anyone research an activity before they go ahead and do it? so much of what I see posted can be prevented with some simple steps.

Who are "you people?" The ones who are experiencing problems or the ones who are lifting weights? It's easy to know what questions to ask after the fact, and no so easy to know what questions to ask without knowing the question needs to be asked in the first place. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. The reality is that (anecdotally speaking) most people who start lifting simply walk into the gym and learn as they go, especially those of us who were into before there was an internet much less a BB.com full of good experience, science, and the ever popular bro-science, and if I was looking up anything it was only how to get bigger...

Also, you are making the mistake of lumping everyone into a single category -- "how many threads ... do you people need to read ... before it sinks into brain cells." It's not the same people asking the same questions. As far as I know OP has not repeatedly asked this and likely never would have never known this was an issue in the first place.

[gbg]

Who are "you people?" The ones who are experiencing problems or the ones who are lifting weights? It's easy to know what questions to ask after the fact, and no so easy to know what questions to ask without knowing the question needs to be asked in the first place. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. The reality is that (anecdotally speaking) most people who start lifting simply walk into the gym and learn as they go, especially those of us who were into before there was an internet much less a BB.com full of good experience, science, and the ever popular bro-science, and if I was looking up anything it was only how to get bigger...

Also, you are making the mistake of lumping everyone into a single category -- "how many threads ... do you people need to read ... before it sinks into brain cells." It's not the same people asking the same questions. As far as I know OP has not repeatedly asked this and likely never would have never known this was an issue in the first place.

How many lifters do you know of that have some sort of shoulder injury? There are a multitude of posts with people complaining about a similar injury. All I am saying is that with some simple research these injuries can easily be eliminated.

And the majority of questions being asked are indeed very similar and all come down to the same thing.

[BillyBatts]

Forgive me but when are you people going to realize the importance of training and over training certain musculature?

How many threads and articles do you have to read before this carries over to the brain cells?

There are numerous post's on here about this very subject. Does anyone research an activity before they go ahead and do it? so much of what I see posted can be prevented with some simple steps.

Excuse me, but you are coming across like an ass and a snob. Your bio indicates that you are a physical therapist and personal trainer. I'm not. I'm an attorney. Weightlifting for me is a hobby, not a full-time occupation. I hire and consult with people like you as the need arises. I don't have the time nor the expertise to sift through the research available on this Site. I wouldn't know what research is valid or helpful.

[mslman71]

How many lifters do you know of that have some sort of shoulder injury? There are a multitude of posts with people complaining about a similar injury. All I am saying is that with some simple research these injuries can easily be eliminated.

And the majority of questions being asked are indeed very similar and all come down to the same thing.

I've never found launching bolts of lightning from high atop my mountain to be particularly beneficial in educating those who take the time to ask and want to be educated. It just isn't productive and it generally drives people away.

I agree, as would any reasonable person, that it is always a good idea to research an activity before undertaking it, but that ain't how it usually works. As you said, one need only track the injury sub-forum for a week to see the same questions being asked over and over, and hopefully there will be someone there with the experience to point them in the right direction (e.g., to their doctor, to certain exercises, etc.).

[lhprop1]

Forgive me but when are you people going to realize the importance of training and over training certain musculature?

How many threads and articles do you have to read before this carries over to the brain cells?

There are numerous post's on here about this very subject. Does anyone research an activity before they go ahead and do it? so much of what I see posted can be prevented with some simple steps.

I usually respect your posts and opinions, but this whole "overtraining" thing is something that needs to get shoved in a back closet, along with the word "core", and locked away from the general public.

Is overtraining real? Yes, but the amount of training necessary to actually bring about the onset of overtraining is far beyond the scope and volume of training that most people here will do.

Runners run damn near every day, yet they don't overtrain. Soldiers go on marches and do the exact same PT day after day after day and they do it under sleep deprivation, yet they don't overtrain. The Bulgarian system of weightlifting was based on the whole premise of training twice a day at 85-90% of your 1RM for 6 days a week! The result was a dynasty of gold medals. People rehabbing from injuries get a list of exercises from their PT that they're expected to do every single day, sometimes twice a day, yet their injured muscle group doesn't get overtrained.

The point is, most people aren't don't train anywhere near their full capacity and are far from taxing the nervous system to the point of the negative effects of overtraining. Training the back twice a week, especially if it is corrective or preventative in nature, is completely fine and a lot more common than you'd like to believe. When there is imbalance that is causing problems, you have to correct it. Doing a little extra work on the problem area is not going to cause someone's nervous system to shut down.

[gbg]

I usually respect your posts and opinions, but this whole "overtraining" thing is something that needs to get shoved in a back closet, along with the word "core", and locked away from the general public.

Is overtraining real? Yes, but the amount of training necessary to actually bring about the onset of overtraining is far beyond the scope and volume of training that most people here will do.

Runners run damn near every day, yet they don't overtrain. Soldiers go on marches and do the exact same PT day after day after day and they do it under sleep deprivation, yet they don't overtrain. The Bulgarian system of weightlifting was based on the whole premise of training twice a day at 85-90% of your 1RM for 6 days a week! The result was a dynasty of gold medals. People rehabbing from injuries get a list of exercises from their PT that they're expected to do every single day, sometimes twice a day, yet their injured muscle group doesn't get overtrained.

The point is, most people aren't don't train anywhere near their full capacity and are far from taxing the nervous system to the point of the negative effects of overtraining. Training the back twice a week, especially if it is corrective or preventative in nature, is completely fine and a lot more common than you'd like to believe. When there is imbalance that is causing problems, you have to correct it. Doing a little extra work on the problem area is not going to cause someone's nervous system to shut down.

I totally agree with you about overtrainig, the term is way overused! I should have made it more clear. I was referring to how a large percentage of BB are constantly doing chest work and not enough posterior chain work. Their ratio to anterior vs posterior work is just not balanced.

[lhprop1]

I totally agree with you about overtrainig, the term is way overused! I should have made it more clear. I was referring to how a large percentage of BB are constantly doing chest work and not enough posterior chain work. Their ratio to anterior vs posterior work is just not balanced.

Agreed 100%. In fact, I'd be willing to bet a large majority of knee and hip pain has a weak posterior chain as the root cause.

People just like having the pretty muscles with little regard for their counterparts.

[gbg]

Agreed 100%. In fact, I'd be willing to bet a large majority of knee and hip pain has a weak posterior chain as the root cause.

People just like having the pretty muscles with little regard for their counterparts.

Exactly.

[tnthudson]

I think that kettlebell swings, band dislocates and face pulls have helped me tremendously over the last few months. In fact, the first few times I did face pulls I thought I had injured myself by the next morning, I was so sore. Turns out I was weak in that area...

[tonester]

Let me start out by saying I train movements, not bodyparts, so take what I'm about to write in that light.

A little over a year ago I had severe shoulder flexibility issues just like the ones you describe. Under advisement of a couple of people whose expertise in rehab and flexibility far outweighs mine, I started doing more posterior chain movements and cut my upper body pushes in half. A month later I was able to perform overhead squats and full snatches again.

In addition to the posterior chain training (deadlifts, , Romanian deadlifts, rows of all kind, power cleans, and power snatches), I performed chin tucks every day throughout the day and shoulder dislocations twice per week with a hand towel.

If you have any kind of forward roll of the shoulders or other pectoral-related impingement, yes, doubling up on the posterior chain pulls will be the most likely way to correct it.

Yes. This. ^^^^^^^^

And this: http://www.t-nation.com/article/perf...and_shrugs&cr=

This article puts the blame where it belongs. Scapular dysfunction. The rotator soft tissue gets beat up for a reason. That reason is weak and or unstable scapular muscles.

Think in terms of your arms being attached to your scaps and it will be a little clearer. Your upper arm bone sits on the golf tee portion of the scapula. Above it is the acromion which impinges on your supraspinatus rotator due to the inability of the scapula to lift and rotate out of the way.

Try the assessment in this article:
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_...t_of_kilter_iv

[gbg]

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=133139833

[Karl_Hungus]

Forgive me but when are you people going to realize the importance of training and over training certain musculature?

Well, everyone in this thread was arguing in FAVOR of maintaining a proper push/pull balance .... so, if "you people" refers to the people in this thread, then you are preaching to the choir here.

[gbg]

Well, everyone in this thread was arguing in FAVOR of maintaining a proper push/pull balance .... so, if "you people" refers to the people in this thread, then you are preaching to the choir here.

fixed.

[tonester]

Just a thought after my post above. Sometimes the exercise we do has nothing to do with it. Oh sure, after lengthy periods of exercise overuse issues will arise with anyone, but the basic reason for injury is imbalance. Muscular/skeletal imbalances that exist before we ever lift a pound. Bad posture, overly rounded ribcages, short clavicles etc. (for rib cages who's size front to back is close to the side to side measurement, the scaps usually sit slightly protracted and with an anterior tilt)

This is why getting an assessment can be important to pick out any imbalances and then to build in corrective work along side the exercise programme.

Show me a guy with a solid build and I'll point out the he has great skeletal/muscular balance and symmetry. Standing sideways to a mirror he won't be able to see his upper back. You can't see his shoulder blades (scaps) for all the muscle built over them that help them do their job of anchoring everything they do with their arms. These guys get dings and dents but it's usually from over working the heavy iron. Most gym goers start blowing out their shoulders before they get to bench 1.5 x their bodyweight for reps.

Take the time to assess and address your bodies integrity before any injuries put you on the sideline.

[BillyBatts]

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=133139833

Thank you for your assistance!!!!

[bbsitum]

Both my shoulders suffer from rotator cuff issues. My Chiropractor, who is also a strength coach, suggested that I do two back workouts per week and only one chest workout per week. The rationale offered is that "pulling" motions associated with back workouts assist the shoulders in their recovery because it is a form of therapeutic stretching. The "pushing and pressing" motions associated with chest workouts put more strain on the shoulders.

Anyone have thoughts or experience with working two back days for each chest day?

Exactly why worth be at this forum and endure spelling guardian. My routine next winter ( I don't work out in construction season ) will be 2:1 for beck and legs (no squats) against chest.
Thank you for sharing chiropractic information for free.