Conjugate system for Raw lifters doable?

[willsong]

So far in my quest to being strong in the Big Three, I have been very curious to see what the Westside method has to offer. After trying some powerbuilding and taking a step back from the 5/3/1 due to a minor injury I have been using this time to research and explore new methods. I'm always looking for ways to get strong and have read that the best way to increase strength IS Max effort lifting followed by circa-max effort lifting. What are your guys experience with the conjugate method, is it mainly geared for equipped lifters/genetic wonders or can it be successfully used for raw lifters?

[koyongi]

Procure this issue of Power:



Read it.

Profit.

[wolfbaden6]

Procure this issue of Power:



Read it.

Profit.

With a caption that says "Bad Technique = Wasted Potential", I'd be stupid to not pick this up.

[willsong]

With a caption that says "Bad Technique = Wasted Potential", I'd be stupid to not pick this up.

Funny, this is the reason i asked this question after reading the Article. However I want some real world feedback from raw westside.

[koyongi]

Funny, this is the reason i asked this question after reading the Article. However I want some real world feedback from raw westside.

I wrote the article. I promise you, it's good advice.

It's not the only way, but it's a good way.

[bigrig5656]

I wrote the article. I promise you, it's good advice.

It's not the only way, but it's a good way.

Don't let him lie to you, Westside is purely for gear whores.

[JHogg11]

I wrote the article. I promise you, it's good advice.

It's not the only way, but it's a good way.

Nice name drop.


OP, I'm doing Westside right now and I'm a raw lifter. I don't compete (yet) but I try to train like someone who does. I did Sheiko for a while and eventually hit a wall. I moved to Westside and have made some progress although I'm still trying to figure it out. I know you didn't specifically name Westside, but I assume that's what you're talking about.

After doing the program for a few months, it seems like it is very much a back-to-basics approach. I've finally gotten in the sweet spot by tailoring my supplementary and accessory lifts to meet my needs. For supplementary work (max effort exercises or slight variations), I've found that the key is listening to your body to figure out how much is too much. Your body needs more heavy lifting than just the max effort and dynamic effort lifts, but too much will take you in the wrong direction. For accessory work, I've found that targeting my weak points is most effective. However, be aware that with the way that Westside is generally taught, more emphasis goes towards the top portion of lifts because this is where suited lifters get the least amount of help from their suits. Just keep in mind that you need to focus on weak points that may exist at all stages of the lift.

[koyongi]

Nice name drop.

The rest makes sense, but I am confused by this statement.

[BEhave]

Do they sell that magazine in Canada? And is that the latest issue?

[koyongi]

Do they sell that magazine in Canada? And is that the latest issue?

It's the last issue, although the newest issue should be shipping right now. My best suggestion would be to look on the website - I know you can at least buy digital copies there.

http://www.thepowermagazine.com/

[jdude94]

It's the last issue, although the newest issue should be shipping right now. My best suggestion would be to look on the website - I know you can at least buy digital copies there.

http://www.thepowermagazine.com/

I gotta say, Power Mag is so much better than Field and Stream.

[NWB]

Nice name drop.
However, be aware that with the way that Westside is generally taught, more emphasis goes towards the top portion of lifts because this is where suited lifters get the least amount of help from their suits.

Only one teacher I know of for "westside" and that is Louie. More emphases is NOT put on the upper part of lifts even though this is a common misconception. The emphasis is on the strength curve and working all parts of it during a lift. Let's see if I can explain this so it is understandable...

X lifter squats 800 raw. On a ME day he wants to get up over the 90% (720lbs) mark at the bottom of his lift for a double or single depending. The strength curve says we lift more at the top than at the bottom. If we never added any accommodating resistance, the top of his lift would only be as good as the bottom. The CNS would only be accustomed to the amount of weight one could use at the bottom of the lift.

Now we add bands/chains to overload the top portion of the lift or strength curve. We still set it up to hit 90% in the hole but at the top it could be 110% or 880lbs. All percentages used are BEFORE accommodating resistance is added at WS, ME or DE. This is why Louie put out if X lifter has a 1RM of Y amount only...use this amount of accommodating resistance in most cases.

I have been lifting raw (gag) on the conjugate system for the last 8 weeks. I went from a 625 raw squat(parrallel) to 675 (gym), 415 raw bench (TNG) to 445 (gym), and 675 dead to 700 (gym). Mind you the latest numbers are gym lifts, but I will take it. Point is the conjugate method can work for raw lifters also. I promise it will, I wrote it here. Funny.

Just keep in mind many ways to get somewhere. Pick the one that keeps you hungry for more and stick with it for a bit. 12-15 week training cycle is nothing in the grand scheme of things. Good luck!

[Big Sexy J]

in after becky

[PeonLover]

It's not ideal.

[Drew23]

There's a lot of stuff written about raw westside. You need to change some things, but it can certainly be done. My training partner, Vinny Dizenzo used the Westside template for a raw bench cycle last year and put up a 605 bench and just missed 620. The main thing is with bench you'll probably have to lower the DE percentages and vary your ME stuff where you aren't doing as much high end stuff (do more things like floor press, bench with chains, bands, and maybe 1-boards.)

For the squats and pulls, I always found that I did fine with the way the basic template is written as long as I'm doing a lot of good mornings and not cheating on the box squats.

[JacobRothenberg]

It's not ideal.

^^

dont train westside without a coach to do your programming, it's a trap~

[DJSTARER]

OP:


the conjugate system can be used for anyone, raw, single or multi. Depending on your experience level, you MAY get more out of a different template. I learned many great things from the conjugate system, and these things carry into other training modalities I use today. I've stated what those are in the past, and won't do so here.

[BEhave]

It's the last issue, although the newest issue should be shipping right now. My best suggestion would be to look on the website - I know you can at least buy digital copies there.

http://www.thepowermagazine.com/

Thank you

[PhreEkGarden]

I wrote the article. I promise you, it's good advice.

It's not the only way, but it's a good way.

Just read it... good article. I liked the deadlift article by brian carroll also.

Nice little 1 week example you put up there too.

[PhreEkGarden]

I see no one commented on this post, but I think this is a great, short explanation.....

Only one teacher I know of for "westside" and that is Louie. More emphases is NOT put on the upper part of lifts even though this is a common misconception. The emphasis is on the strength curve and working all parts of it during a lift. Let's see if I can explain this so it is understandable...

X lifter squats 800 raw. On a ME day he wants to get up over the 90% (720lbs) mark at the bottom of his lift for a double or single depending. The strength curve says we lift more at the top than at the bottom. If we never added any accommodating resistance, the top of his lift would only be as good as the bottom. The CNS would only be accustomed to the amount of weight one could use at the bottom of the lift.

Now we add bands/chains to overload the top portion of the lift or strength curve. We still set it up to hit 90% in the hole but at the top it could be 110% or 880lbs. All percentages used are BEFORE accommodating resistance is added at WS, ME or DE. This is why Louie put out if X lifter has a 1RM of Y amount only...use this amount of accommodating resistance in most cases.

I have been lifting raw (gag) on the conjugate system for the last 8 weeks. I went from a 625 raw squat(parrallel) to 675 (gym), 415 raw bench (TNG) to 445 (gym), and 675 dead to 700 (gym). Mind you the latest numbers are gym lifts, but I will take it. Point is the conjugate method can work for raw lifters also. I promise it will, I wrote it here. Funny.

Just keep in mind many ways to get somewhere. Pick the one that keeps you hungry for more and stick with it for a bit. 12-15 week training cycle is nothing in the grand scheme of things. Good luck!

[koyongi]

Thank you

You're welcome.

Just read it... good article. I liked the deadlift article by brian carroll also.

Nice little 1 week example you put up there too.

Thanks!

[JHogg11]

Only one teacher I know of for "westside" and that is Louie. More emphases is NOT put on the upper part of lifts even though this is a common misconception. The emphasis is on the strength curve and working all parts of it during a lift. Let's see if I can explain this so it is understandable...

X lifter squats 800 raw. On a ME day he wants to get up over the 90% (720lbs) mark at the bottom of his lift for a double or single depending. The strength curve says we lift more at the top than at the bottom. If we never added any accommodating resistance, the top of his lift would only be as good as the bottom. The CNS would only be accustomed to the amount of weight one could use at the bottom of the lift.

Now we add bands/chains to overload the top portion of the lift or strength curve. We still set it up to hit 90% in the hole but at the top it could be 110% or 880lbs. All percentages used are BEFORE accommodating resistance is added at WS, ME or DE. This is why Louie put out if X lifter has a 1RM of Y amount only...use this amount of accommodating resistance in most cases.

I have been lifting raw (gag) on the conjugate system for the last 8 weeks. I went from a 625 raw squat(parrallel) to 675 (gym), 415 raw bench (TNG) to 445 (gym), and 675 dead to 700 (gym). Mind you the latest numbers are gym lifts, but I will take it. Point is the conjugate method can work for raw lifters also. I promise it will, I wrote it here. Funny.

Just keep in mind many ways to get somewhere. Pick the one that keeps you hungry for more and stick with it for a bit. 12-15 week training cycle is nothing in the grand scheme of things. Good luck!

By "taught" I meant the way that the information is disseminated around the internet. Although I've read some of his articles, I've never been coached by Louie but I still learned the Westside principles.

I'm not sure how overloading the top portion of the "strength curve" isn't emphasizing the top portion of the lift. I don't mean to be a dick, because I'm sure you have a lot more experience with the method, but it seems like it's the same thing. You suggested the example of the squat. Most raw lifters fail in max squat efforts deep in the hole, so it wouldn't make as much sense to focus on strengthening the top part of the curve/lift. It would make more sense to focus on strengthening the glutes, for example, since they are critical out of the hole. For someone that doesn't have a suit to aid in the harder portion of the lift, it seems like a waste of time and energy to focus on a strong point. This is what I mean by adjusting the template away from strengthening the top part of the lift.

Edit: NWB, I just remembered that you were the one that really helped me tweak my supplementary exercises, so thanks again for that. Again, I don't mean to be a dick, it just doesn't make sense to me.

[csday924]

I wrote the article. I promise you, it's good advice.

It's not the only way, but it's a good way.

I have it, I've read it at least 6x, now I profit.

[NWB]

By "taught" I meant the way that the information is disseminated around the internet. Although I've read some of his articles, I've never been coached by Louie but I still learned the Westside principles.

I'm not sure how overloading the top portion of the "strength curve" isn't emphasizing the top portion of the lift. I don't mean to be a dick, because I'm sure you have a lot more experience with the method, but it seems like it's the same thing. You suggested the example of the squat. Most raw lifters fail in max squat efforts deep in the hole, so it wouldn't make as much sense to focus on strengthening the top part of the curve/lift. It would make more sense to focus on strengthening the glutes, for example, since they are critical out of the hole. For someone that doesn't have a suit to aid in the harder portion of the lift, it seems like a waste of time and energy to focus on a strong point. This is what I mean by adjusting the template away from strengthening the top part of the lift.

Edit: NWB, I just remembered that you were the one that really helped me tweak my supplementary exercises, so thanks again for that. Again, I don't mean to be a dick, it just doesn't make sense to me.

No worries on me thinking you are a dick. I don't. Will be awhile before I let some internet talk get to me. Anyways, addressing your concerns in this post.

I am not going to quote each concern but I will address them with my experiences and what we do currently.

You can work the top part of the lift but not work the "in the hole" portion at all if you are doing accomodating resistance certain ways. I can Make 1000lbs of top bar weight but only 450 or so in the hole if I wanted (4 blue bands per side and 200 bar weight). This is working the top portion but doing nothing for me in building that strength you are talking about. (this has it's place also though, but for another day) Working the strength curve is getting that 90% in the hole but overloading the top with accommodating resistance.

Real life example. I squat 675 raw now. I need to hit 607.5 in the hole to get work in for it. I can put 120lbs of chain to deload completely in the hole and full weight at the top. So I get 610 of bar weight and 120lbs of chain. Gives me 610/730 for the weights in hole and at top. This is working the strength curve. Most people do not set the accommodating resistance up correctly thus the misconception that conjugate only works the "top half of the lift". And with them, it is only working this. Set it up right and you will be working the entire curve.

Failing on max squat efforts. If most are failing, they are training wrong for powerlifting. 90% is very doable but will force you to work. You shouldn't be failing at 90% unless the planets are not aligned. I do not care if its "deep" squats or not. SIDENOTE: I lift to what is needed on meet day. I train for this and this only. I know where parallel is and train for this. This is not to say I do not go 1"-2" below parallel at times. This has its place in training and we do it also. You will have to work for that 90%, but is very doable. If you feel good, go up another 2.5%-5% and so forth. DON'T MISS!

I think if you train to where you pushed yourself but do not miss, you will have better results overall. Workouts will feel better do to CNS issues you get when missing weights. I dare you to try it for a cycle. haha.

I agree posterior chain (glutes included) needs to be worked hard by raw AND geared lifters. You set the conjugate system up correctly and do the proper excercises....I promise you will work them and they will get stronger.

Hope this made a little sense. Good Luck!

[ptrmull]

box squat for raw lifter???really

[coachdeez]

box squat for raw lifter???really

Dude, you seriously need to quit bumping all these old ass threads.

[arian11]

Dude, you seriously need to quit bumping all these old ass threads.

Yea, wtf is this dude doing? Going to like page 20 and just replying to everything?

[rbelsito427]

I didn't realize this was even a question.... What I took from westside was that it is a program that brings up your weaknesses. So it would modify for every lifter. Last time I checked... RAW lifters have weaknesses.

[Black_Spit]

Yea, wtf is this dude doing? Going to like page 20 and just replying to everything?

Well in fairness, he was at least asking a legitimate question, not randomly bumping an old thread like the trolls do.

[BigJon55]

By "taught" I meant the way that the information is disseminated around the internet. Although I've read some of his articles, I've never been coached by Louie but I still learned the Westside principles.

I'm not sure how overloading the top portion of the "strength curve" isn't emphasizing the top portion of the lift. I don't mean to be a dick, because I'm sure you have a lot more experience with the method, but it seems like it's the same thing. You suggested the example of the squat. Most raw lifters fail in max squat efforts deep in the hole, so it wouldn't make as much sense to focus on strengthening the top part of the curve/lift. It would make more sense to focus on strengthening the glutes, for example, since they are critical out of the hole. For someone that doesn't have a suit to aid in the harder portion of the lift, it seems like a waste of time and energy to focus on a strong point. This is what I mean by adjusting the template away from strengthening the top part of the lift.

Edit: NWB, I just remembered that you were the one that really helped me tweak my supplementary exercises, so thanks again for that. Again, I don't mean to be a dick, it just doesn't make sense to me.

The point of overloading the top on DE day is to train you to accelerate the bar through the entire range of motion rather than accelerating and then decelerating at the top, and the reason one would overload the top on ME day is so that the entire lift is strenuous, not just out of the hole. Also, using bands and/or chains on the ME lifts greatly expands the number of exercises you have to choose from for the conjugate method.