Why does everyone love starting strength for bodybuilders?

[sports19]

Why does it seem like everyone on this site says for beginners they should use starting strenth or 5x5 when trying to put on mass. The hypertrophy range is 8-12 or so I thought it was. Wouldn't someone trying to get as big as they can be better off doing squats,bench,deadlifts and rows in the higher rep range to maximize the added food they are taking in. Does strength really carry over to more muscle everytime?

[askthetrainer]

Why does it seem like everyone on this site says for beginners they should use starting strenth or 5x5 when trying to put on mass. The hypertrophy range is 8-12 or so I thought it was. Wouldn't someone trying to get as big as they can be better off doing squats,bench,deadlifts and rows in the higher rep range to maximize the added food they are taking in. Does strength really carry over to more muscle everytime?

This is a whole pie

This is a piece of pie

[madeira17]

This is a whole pie

This is a piece of pie

What in the world is that supposed to mean. You act like he is asking a question about bicep curls and increasing his fingertip strength for typing. He wants to know about hypertrophy and not building a lot of strength. I am new to this as well so I can't help.

[chaosmatt]

What in the world is that supposed to mean. You act like he is asking a question about bicep curls and increasing his fingertip strength for typing. He wants to know about hypertrophy and not building a lot of strength. I am new to this as well so I can't help.

he means that the rep range is only a small portion of what is required to maximize hypertrophy (i think)

[nsiegel5]

Starting strength is really geared towards athletes and they use a 5X5 pattern for a lot of reasons, CNS stimulation, Motor Unit recruitment and a lot of time they are not necessarily looking for hypertrophy eg what will be faster a person who is lighter and stronger or a person who is heavier and just as strong, answer is obvious. Starting strength does just what is says it concentrates on the major compound movements that correlate to sports performance Press Squat Dead, refinement comes at a later stage when the athlete has begun to progress further along.

[md3sign]

It's recommended a lot for beginners looking to put on size/strength and build a solid foundation because it works. The main reason it works is because a) it focuses exclusively on compounds and b) it's designed to offer all adaptations - strength, size, and a level of endurance. I could talk all day about why it's better than split "hypertrophy" routines for beginners, but I'll let experience speak for itself: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=923892

42lbs gained on SS, some lifts increasing over 100lbs in 4 months.

8-12 is not set in stone. You also have to consider if you're getting advice from naturals or enhanced athletes. Drugs (and age) let you get away with a lot of things.

Let's put it this way: if someone said you could only do X reps for any exercise, EVER, what would you set X to?

[ExtremeEnigma]

the first few months of resistance training produce primarily neural adaptations anyway, not muscular. I.E. you will get stronger before you start getting bigger. you might as well take advantage of these first few months and gain as much strength, core stability, motor pattern mastery (getting good at the lifts) with heavy loads as possible. when you reach the intermediate level you can start increasing reps, doing splits, 20 different bicep exercises, or whatever else your heart desires. but in the beginning, keep it simple. thus the name "starting" strength.

[madeira17]

Interesting points of view...if you were a beginner and were trying to pack on as much size as you could though within a 4-5 month span while bulking what would you get the best results? Hypertrophy range or 3x5 lifts considering all exercises are performed correctly.

[NorwichGrad]

SS is an excellent, excellent resource. Coach Rip is one of the best strength coach; however, he is not an Olympic Weightlifting coach. Having said this, if you decide to follow his program (which I highly recommend to all newbies) and you also decide to add power/hang cleans to your routine, follow his "triple extension" method with a grain of salt.

There is more to Olympic lifts than "jump, shrug and catch." I would hire a knowledgeable Oly coach to show you how to properly clean.

Overall, SS is an A-plus IMO.

[sf69]

the first few months of resistance training produce primarily neural adaptations anyway, not muscular. I.E. you will get stronger before you start getting bigger. you might as well take advantage of these first few months and gain as much strength, core stability, motor pattern mastery (getting good at the lifts) with heavy loads as possible. when you reach the intermediate level you can start increasing reps, doing splits, 20 different bicep exercises, or whatever else your heart desires. but in the beginning, keep it simple. thus the name "starting" strength.

Good post

[carl.c]

sports19 and madeira17; The two of you are starting to sound like acouple of morons. you have hit the athletic fourm and this forum with the same question over and over again. Are in capable of using the search engine here or typing in defranco or rippetoe or poliquin in to google? I say the answer is no since you ask the same question over and over again spend some time studying the subject we can help fine tune a program or fix a problem but we will not set up a complete program for you to many variables to deal with over the internet. As I said before to both of you hit the book and the weights then you will understand what where talking about. i dought eather of you have tred the programs recommened to you if you have you only gave it a week then gave up.
When i say hit the weights I mean as the program says. One of you said you tried rippetoes program with ight weights and did'nt like it because you made no gains in a week, problem is rippetoes program is very heavy weights with max effort on all of them for the mos tpart.

[madeira17]

sports19 and madeira17; The two of you are starting to sound like acouple of morons. you have hit the athletic fourm and this forum with the same question over and over again. Are in capable of using the search engine here or typing in defranco or rippetoe or poliquin in to google? I say the answer is no since you ask the same question over and over again spend some time studying the subject we can help fine tune a program or fix a problem but we will not set up a complete program for you to many variables to deal with over the internet. As I said before to both of you hit the book and the weights then you will understand what where talking about. i dought eather of you have tred the programs recommened to you if you have you only gave it a week then gave up.
When i say hit the weights I mean as the program says. One of you said you tried rippetoes program with ight weights and did'nt like it because you made no gains in a week, problem is rippetoes program is very heavy weights with max effort on all of them for the mos tpart.

I apologize for the frequent posts about similar things. I just am curious because unlike what you think I have googled this a 100 times and I go to other forums and people who have made great gains say that they train in the 8-14 range for hypertrophy. Some other people say work on building up your strength first and this and that. I know their is no clear cut answer but just like my question I am curious as to what somebody should do to maximize their growth. I have about 4 months to bulk starting in october I have been cutting to about 9-10% body fat. I want to get as big as I can in 4 months then cut for summer. Next fall do it all over again and so on and so on. I don't really care to much about how much I can bench or deadlift, I mean don't get me wrong I do if it will make me grow more now then later. I already have a lean physique and now I want to build some muscle so it shows and if that means starting strength so be it. If I can get the most gains out of doing something similar to starting strength but with a higher rep range then if that is better I would like to know now. I think some people including myself are hesitant to just jump into a program and not know what to expect. My diet will be fine I know about eating the right amount of protein and eating in a surplus. I just want to get as big as I can by next february or so. Sorry if I am a pain to some of you guys. I think their should be a forum for guys in their mid-20s who don't have puberty and teenage recovery on their side but also are not over 35 and have been overweight and weak for a while. I never know where to post my questions because it is not exactly sport training and I am not a teenager. Thanks

[regl8r]

Not a big SS pusher like others seem to be but basically here is why its better to do a program like that compared to starting in hypertrophy range.

Bench 100 x 10 x 3

Squat 150 x 10 x 3

Deadlift 200 x 10 x 3


OR

Bench 225 x 10 x 3

Squat 275 x 10 x 3

Dead 315 x 10 x 3


Obviously the 2nd would get you bigger. So focusing on strength in the start, you will be able to promote more size gains in the future.

[ExtremeEnigma]

I apologize for the frequent posts about similar things. I just am curious because unlike what you think I have googled this a 100 times and I go to other forums and people who have made great gains say that they train in the 8-14 range for hypertrophy. Some other people say work on building up your strength first and this and that. I know their is no clear cut answer but just like my question I am curious as to what somebody should do to maximize their growth. I have about 4 months to bulk starting in october I have been cutting to about 9-10% body fat. I want to get as big as I can in 4 months then cut for summer. Next fall do it all over again and so on and so on. I don't really care to much about how much I can bench or deadlift, I mean don't get me wrong I do if it will make me grow more now then later. I already have a lean physique and now I want to build some muscle so it shows and if that means starting strength so be it. If I can get the most gains out of doing something similar to starting strength but with a higher rep range then if that is better I would like to know now. I think some people including myself are hesitant to just jump into a program and not know what to expect. My diet will be fine I know about eating the right amount of protein and eating in a surplus. I just want to get as big as I can by next february or so. Sorry if I am a pain to some of you guys. I think their should be a forum for guys in their mid-20s who don't have puberty and teenage recovery on their side but also are not over 35 and have been overweight and weak for a while. I never know where to post my questions because it is not exactly sport training and I am not a teenager. Thanks

buddy, 4 months is NOTHING. ZERO. ****. A DROP IN THE PAN. bodybuilding takes YEARS. stop worrying about how much you can gain in 4 months and start looking at the big picture.

you're 145 and naturally lean. dont bulk until the summer. bulk until NEXT summer. you will look 10x better than if you keep "cutting" every few months. what are you cutting????

[madeira17]

buddy, 4 months is NOTHING. ZERO. ****. A DROP IN THE PAN. bodybuilding takes YEARS. stop worrying about how much you can gain in 4 months and start looking at the big picture.

you're 145 and naturally lean. dont bulk until the summer. bulk until NEXT summer. you will look 10x better than if you keep "cutting" every few months. what are you cutting????

I am trying to stay within 10-13% body fat at the most during my bulk. I am cutting in 4 months so that I can be lean for summer. What kind of question is that?

[KyleAaron]

Thread not relevant to subforum, should be moved.

[mlp_22531]

I'd be curious to see study: group of newbies doing SS and group of newbies doing a beginners workout like Lyle McDonalds upper lower twice a week split focus on compounds in 8-12 range. Id bet both groups would make similar gains.

[askthetrainer]

What in the world is that supposed to mean. You act like he is asking a question about bicep curls and increasing his fingertip strength for typing. He wants to know about hypertrophy and not building a lot of strength. I am new to this as well so I can't help.

Sorry, what I was trying to get at is, "Look @ the Big Picture"

You have to start somewhere and a good routine is going to be periodized so there is really no wrong way to start a program and looking @ it one way "strength" could be the best place to start because if you want to get the most out your hypertrophy cycle, what would be better? being only able to lift 100 pounds 15 times or lift 200 pounds for 15 times?

[Wildtim]

I am trying to stay within 10-13% body fat at the most during my bulk. I am cutting in 4 months so that I can be lean for summer. What kind of question is that?

Bulk at 10% for the next fifty pounds and you might look good. There is no need to get much over 10% to add bulk. right now though you are nothing but skin and bones.

[grumble1]

Hey, one of these threads! I'ts been a couple of weeks since the last one.

[Farley1324]

I am trying to stay within 10-13% body fat at the most during my bulk. I am cutting in 4 months so that I can be lean for summer. What kind of question is that?

Stats: 5'10", 145 lbs

I cannot imagine why you would want to cut in 4 months

[KyleAaron]

I'd be curious to see study: group of newbies doing SS and group of newbies doing a beginners workout like Lyle McDonalds upper lower twice a week split focus on compounds in 8-12 range. Id bet both groups would make similar gains.

Yes, they would - for the first 6-12 weeks.

Then Lyle's group would stall out.

Progressive resistance training works on the simple principle of always doing more weight, reps or sets than you did before. Newbies were doing nothing, something is more than nothing, so any routine, however stupid, will work - for a while. The only question is whether it works beyond then.

There's also the question of adherence. A routine is no good if people quit it, it has some virtue if they stick to it. A routine which allows steady progression is better motivationally than one which has you stall, or constantly change exercises, etc.

At one of my gyms recently, a healthy young man expressed the goals, "I want to get massive, and I want to use barbells and compounds to do it. Okay, not massive, but bigger. And keep the workout under an hour." This was the workout another trainer had written up for him.

Day 1
Warmup, pushups 3x8
Weights,
Seated (or with barbell) chest press, 3x10-12
Standing dumbbell shoulder press, 3x10-12
Seated row, 3x10-12
DB fly, 3x10-12
Chinups, 3x10-12
Military press, 3x10-12
DB biceps [I assume "curls" are meant here]
Tricep pull down [pull? maybe face away from the machine...?]
Plank - build up to 3 minutes

Day 2
Squats on smith machine, 2 sets easy, 2 sets deeper-heavier
Calf raises on smith, 3x10-12
Lunges on smith or DB, 3x10-12
Hamstring curls seated, 3x10-12
Deadlift barbell, 3x10-12
Back extension, 3x10-12
Clean & press BB, 3x10-12
Leg raises, 3x10-12
50 crunchies [workout meal?]
50 medicine ball twists / bicycle [?]

Day 3
Warmup, assisted chinups, 3x8
Lunges on step with DB, 3x10-12
Military press on swiss ball, 3x10-12 [he's supposed to stand with heels together on a swiss ball pressing?]
Hamstring curls, 3x10-12
Lat pulldown, 3x10-12
Seated leg extension, 3x10-12
Bicep on swiss ball, 3x10-12 [bicep curls?]
Tricep dips - legs out, 3x10-12
sit on swiss ball, feet off ground - 1 minute

I felt that was a workout just typing it all out. I'd be impressed if he could do each of the three in under an hour. Do you think he would stick to this workout for long? Would he progress the weight and reps in each of those exercises over weeks or months? Or would he stall on a bunch of them, get discouraged and quit the gym?

Obviously, I changed it.

[bcoop78]

Not a big SS pusher like others seem to be but basically here is why its better to do a program like that compared to starting in hypertrophy range.

Bench 100 x 10 x 3

Squat 150 x 10 x 3

Deadlift 200 x 10 x 3


OR

Bench 225 x 10 x 3

Squat 275 x 10 x 3

Dead 315 x 10 x 3




Obviously the 2nd would get you bigger. So focusing on strength in the start, you will be able to promote more size gains in the future.

Most informative post IMHO.

[grumble1]

SS is recommended so often to beginners because:

1. It is simple, and harder to miscommunicate
2. Has a ton of information on how to do it, including diet, exhaustive programming, etc
3. There's a fantastic book that teaches you how to do the lifts
4. It works really well for getting you stronger, quickly
5. It works really well for getting you more muscular, quickly

The program is by no means perfect, but it works.

[popupwindow]

Yes, they would - for the first 6-12 weeks.

Then Lyle's group would stall out.

They both stall after 4-6 weeks or so, as is the nature of linear periodisation, hence why rip always talks about re-setting lifts when they get stuck. In the true sense they're not stuck, because if you drop it back down, ensure technique and recovery is in check and eat more, you can bust through the plateau, and repeat the process another few times per lift. Furthermore, if you're referring to lyle's generic bulking routine, that's for intermediate lifters, and SS is for novice lifters, so it's not a fair comparison. Also, lyles is just a template, not a prescribed routine, you can periodise it how you want, it's just 4x/week upper/lower split, nothing revolutionary.

SS will get you strong (as is the point of it), it's basic, it works and it doesn't over-complicate things. Getting strong is a key element to gaining muscle, hence why SS is a good starting point for weak and skinny beginners. But I think many people over-estimate how much muscle they gain on SS. You need to eat a eye-popping amount of food to squat heavy 3x a week, as well as press and pull heavy. You can recover from it, but for some we're talking about 5000-8500 calories a day here. Thus, a lot of the weight gain is fat. If you're after mainly strength, if you'll willing to spend ages dieting down if you're after body comp, and if you don't mind potentially adding a bunch of fat cells that will never go away and stretch out your skin, that's cool, and it silly and impossible to try and gain only muscle, but when people add 50lbs on SS, and go from 150lbs at 10%BF to 200lbs at 20% BF (if you do it right), they've taken their lbm from 135lbs to 160lbs, which is 25lbs of hard earned lbm, but still, some people seem to think they're gaining much more than that (especially rip himself).

[GuyJin]

To add to the good advice already given, SS is fine for those just starting in the lifting game or those getting back into it as it teaches you to do the lifts correctly. Let's face it: A lot of newbies go into the gym and use really crappy form from the get-go which won't help them. The way SS is laid out, especially with the YouTube vids showing Rippetoe teaching people how to squat and deadlift properly, goes a long way in establishing what "good form" is.

Is it the best "muscle/bodybuilding" programme out there? No, in all honesty, it isn't. But at the beginning, you do need some strength upon which to build. In effect, you're laying the brick foundation for the future house. The drawbacks are that a lot of guys can't squat 3x a week, and that, yes, if you GOMAD and eat like a pig, more than likely you'll gain bodyfat and maybe a lot of it along with the muscle. Certain individuals who are genetically inclined to stay lean build more muscle (i.e. the guys you see who eat like hogs and never get fat but get muscular instead) than the average guy who may put on fifty pounds, half or which (or maybe more) being fat. But that still does not negate the fact that the programme teaches progression and goal-setting on a handful of exercises.

Overall, it's a very solid programme for those looking to get strong all over and not waste their time on the "Flavor-of-the-month" routines from the mags. JMO...

[grumble1]

SS will get you strong (as is the point of it), it's basic, it works and it doesn't over-complicate things. Getting strong is a key element to gaining muscle, hence why SS is a good starting point for weak and skinny beginners. But I think many people over-estimate how much muscle they gain on SS. You need to eat a eye-popping amount of food to squat heavy 3x a week, as well as press and pull heavy. You can recover from it, but for some we're talking about 5000-8500 calories a day here. Thus, a lot of the weight gain is fat. If you're after mainly strength, if you'll willing to spend ages dieting down if you're after body comp, and if you don't mind potentially adding a bunch of fat cells that will never go away and stretch out your skin, that's cool, and it silly and impossible to try and gain only muscle, but when people add 50lbs on SS, and go from 150lbs at 10%BF to 200lbs at 20% BF (if you do it right), they've taken their lbm from 135lbs to 160lbs, which is 25lbs of hard earned lbm, but still, some people seem to think they're gaining much more than that (especially rip himself).

Okay, fairly few people will actually eat 5k/day (though it happens). Pretty much no one will eat 8.5k/day. I agree that you need a ton of food to recover and adapt from the compound lifts, but isn't that kind of the point? Your body is using a ton of fuel to get stronger and bigger for the next frequent heavy workout?

The amount of fat you gain on SS is proportional to your caloric excess. If you undereat, you'll stall. If you overeat, you'll get fat. Find the right point for you, acknowledge that you'll gain some fat along with the muscle, and move on.

As for going up to 20% bodyfat, that sometimes happens, but it doesn't for most people. You're more likely to end up at 15-17%.

Basically, your view of what SS is and does is kind of warped. I agree that the fat gain can be a bit much sometimes, but you just need to manage how much food you eat. It's not a perfect program, but it's good.

[KyleAaron]

They both stall after 4-6 weeks or so

This has not been my experience, nor that of many people who actually followed the SS routine. A stall that early generally means the person either started too high in weight on the bar, or else is lacking in food or sleep.

Furthermore, if you're referring to lyle's generic bulking routine, that's for intermediate lifters, and SS is for novice lifters, so it's not a fair comparison.

It wasn't me who brought the comparison up.

Thus, a lot of the weight gain is fat.

The same is true of any routine designed to add muscle.

Caloric surplus + progressive resistance training = gain fat, gain muscle

That's physiology, it's not characteristic of any particular routine, SS or otherwise, masturbatory myths about "clean bulking" notwithstanding.

[chessgeeksam]

SS will give you strength gains that carry over into your hypertrophy workouts. You'll get more out of a 3x10 at more weight. SS helps your body learn how to handle that weight.

[KyleAaron]

Honestly, it's like asking why people like primary school for doctors. Yes, doctors need medical knowledge, but the prerequisite to medical knowledge is basic literacy and numeracy. Everyone has to start somewhere.

"I want to be a bodybuilder, shouldn't I just train like bodybuilders do?"
"I want my six year old to become a surgeon, shouldn't I just give him a scalpel now?"

Start with the basics.