Strength; Time under tension Vs. Amount of resistance used.

[tommo777]

Hey guys Im currently reading Pavel Tsatsouline's 'Power to the people'. Im going to finish the book by the end of the day and apply all the principles rather than do 'starting strength', its quite surprising the amount of difference between the two but I'll save that for another thread.

Anyway, Pavel advocates that both the eccentric and concentric portions of the two exercises he uses; deadlifts and military press/side press, should last for 5 seconds each (10 seconds per rep).
I thought I would apply this principle with a set of press ups and chin ups.

My results were this. Although I can do a weighted press up for 5 reps with 55lbs on my back, When I slowed down my reps to 10 seconds per rep I struggled to complete 5 with BW alone.
And for chin ups, I can do 5 reps of weighted chin ups with 30lbs on my back, but I only managed 4 reps, just!, with 10 second reps.

However, he writes both that time under and tension AND 85-95% 1RM both create myofribillar hypertrophy/ muscle density etc. Do you guys achieve 10 second reps at such high weight resistance?!!?

So as I begin to construct my workout schedule do I start with more resistance, or go back to lower resistances with slower reps?

Cheers

[Heisman2]

I haven't read this book, and I respect Pavel, but doing 10 second reps is ridiculous. With deadlifts especially.... that's just asking for an injury if you're lowering the bar that slowly. Having a lot of time under tension may be good from a bodybuilding standpoint but not from a strength/athletic training perspective.

I think you should just do the positive portion of all reps as explosively as possible, unless they are warm up set OR if doing them really explosively would generate a ton of moment (such as pullups, leg curls, abducton/adduction machine, etc). Do the negative portion fairly quickly as long as you make sure you're in control of the bar.

[tommo777]

I haven't read this book, and I respect Pavel, but doing 10 second reps is ridiculous. With deadlifts especially.... that's just asking for an injury if you're lowering the bar that slowly. Having a lot of time under tension may be good from a bodybuilding standpoint but not from a strength/athletic training perspective.

I think you should just do the positive portion of all reps as explosively as possible, unless they are warm up set OR if doing them really explosively would generate a ton of moment (such as pullups, leg curls, abducton/adduction machine, etc). Do the negative portion fairly quickly as long as you make sure you're in control of the bar.

Yeah I think the simplest way for him to explain his theory is through the 'plank' exercise, he talks about the ripple effect of tension, and if you've done this exercise you'll know that although original tension derives from the core, after a certain amount of time, your whole body starts to shake.
Im just wondering if I start my deadlifting from 60% 1RM with slow form I can prevent injury and still work up to the higher poundages eventually.

[BEhave]

What does muscle density mean? I'm pretty sure the cross section of one persons fast twitch muscle is the same as another person's

[tommo777]

What does muscle density mean? I'm pretty sure the cross section of one persons fast twitch muscle is the same as another person's

Dont understand your point? but I think he represents it as the compaction of muscle, just another definition for myofibrillar hypertrophy rather than softer muscle comprising of sarcoplasmic growth (more water based cell growth)

[Torrtrefireto]

I honestly can't believe any Russian came up with this... sounds too American, like it wants to sell you something.

I'd read Science and Practice of Strength training by Zatsiorksy for a lighter book, or Supertraining by Siff and Verkoshansky (RIP) for a longer one.

Those are good Russian training books.

[PeonLover]

The use of 10 second reps leads me to believe that you need starting strength and milk for you are not smart enough to do any type of training on your own.

[UHCougar05]

A 5 second eccentric? That sounds like a great way to get sore...

[Retardo-pex]

A 5 second eccentric? That sounds like a great way to get sore...

I don't think my sets under 15 reps even last 5 seconds :P

[anonymous]

why would anyone looking to lift more weight or get bigger do a 5 second concentric?

a longer eccentric makes sense for a BBing perspective (although 5 seconds is silly) but there is no sense at all in doing a slow concentric.

reminds me of the superslow HIT special-school of thought.

edit -5 seconds lowering a deadlift? Really?

[TheFatNinja]

It is a fact that powerlifters are unable to sustain any physical activity for a full 10 seconds. This is probably why you are getting so many negative replies from this bunch of fatties.


Go with it.

[UHCougar05]

It is a fact that powerlifters are unable to sustain any physical activity for a full 10 seconds. This is probably why you are getting so many negative replies from this bunch of fatties.


Go with it.

That's what she said...


























































































Oh, wait...

[tommo777]

The use of 10 second reps leads me to believe that you need starting strength and milk for you are not smart enough to do any type of training on your own.

What a twat.

[SuicideGripMe]

The use of 10 second reps leads me to believe that you need starting strength and milk for you are not smart enough to do any type of training on your own.

What a twat.

Yeah Peonlover! Dont be such a jerk! Just because the OP has a 170 bench and 215 deadlift, no squat recorded, and weighs as much as I did when I was a highschool freshman does not mean hes not ready to design his own awesome program.

Pfft, OP, dont listen to these losers... your lifts speak for themselves!

[tommo777]

Yeah Peonlover! Dont be such a jerk! Just because the OP has a 170 bench and 215 deadlift, no squat recorded, and weighs as much as I did when I was a highschool freshman does not mean hes not ready to design his own awesome program.

Pfft, OP, dont listen to these losers... your lifts speak for themselves!

Anyone idiot can say an idea is **** without giving an explanation as to why.

[Ka0s]

Anyone idiot can say an idea is **** without giving an explanation as to why.

But it takes a real genius to embrace an idea without knowing anything about it

[Fluster]

But it takes a real genius to embrace an idea without knowing anything about it

lmao.

[TheFatNinja]

But it takes a real genius to embrace an idea without knowing anything about it

pwn of the month.

[tommo777]

But it takes a real genius to embrace an idea without knowing anything about it

I do understand how it works, its how gymnasts develop astonishing amounts of strength in ratio to their bodyweight.

[tommo777]

Im assuming you guys havent checked to see if there was any validity in the effectiveness of slow reps, I did a search online and there seems to be alot more articles that support Pavel's view I posted earlier than not.

[TheFatNinja]

Im assuming you guys havent checked to see if there was any validity in the effectiveness of slow reps, I did a search online and there seems to be alot more articles that support Pavel's view I posted earlier than not.

Why didn't you mention this earlier? You mean there are ARTICLES on the INTERNET that support this method??!!! It is bulletproof bro, go for it.

[Fluster]

Im assuming you guys havent checked to see if there was any validity in the effectiveness of slow reps, I did a search online and there seems to be alot more articles that support Pavel's view I posted earlier than not.

Science.

[tommo777]

Why didn't you mention this earlier? You mean there are ARTICLES on the INTERNET that support this method??!!! It is bulletproof bro, go for it.

Zzzzzzzzz

[Archheretic]

I feel that doing really slow reps might be good for hypertrophy, but is bad for strenght since your explosiveness really suffers from it.

[tommo777]

I feel that doing really slow reps might be good for hypertrophy, but is bad for strenght since your explosiveness really suffers from it.

Thank you for your polite response.

I dunno really, I think there is alot of accuracy in thinking it creates muscle density over muscle mass for two reasons. I believe Martial artists like Bruce lee did one finger push ups and chin ups to create the most amount of tension and more strength resulted, but he wasnt seeking hypertrophy as it is not useful to his sport, infact in one of his books I have it states he went from 135lbs to 145lbs but didnt enjoy the extra weight and went back down to 135lbs.
Similarly, gymnasts are constantly under tension supporting their bodyweight in several positions and also do not develop much hypertrophy (considering), but they must be very strong.
Im going to research boxing specific training, strength is important element of their training but they must keep within a weight limit (usually)

[SuicideGripMe]

Thank you for your polite response.

I dunno really, I think there is alot of accuracy in thinking it creates muscle density over muscle mass for two reasons. I believe Martial artists like Bruce lee did one finger push ups and chin ups to create the most amount of tension and more strength resulted, but he wasnt seeking hypertrophy as it is not useful to his sport, infact in one of his books I have it states he went from 135lbs to 145lbs but didnt enjoy the extra weight and went back down to 135lbs.
Similarly, gymnasts are constantly under tension supporting their bodyweight in several positions and also do not develop much hypertrophy (considering), but they must be very strong.
Im going to research boxing specific training, strength is important element of their training but they must keep within a weight limit (usually)

This thread is getting f*cking stupid.

OP, why dont we do this? Ill use a traditional style of training, say Bill Starr's 5x5 and you do whatever the hell you want. In 4 months, we will see who got stronger and we will both have our answers.

[pntbll687]

This is nothing new. Dave Tate actually wrote about it in his trilogy training program. It was a time based approach to lifting.

[TrettinR]

Similarly, gymnasts are constantly under tension supporting their bodyweight in several positions and also do not develop much hypertrophy (considering), but they must be very strong.

Umm....

[endpoint]

Isometric is different to eccentric.
And isometric has no eccentric

[BEhave]

Umm....

Owned