***Thread for survivalists, preparedness, G.O.O.D., SHTF, TEOTWAWKI***

[sugicalmike]

This is a great thread, and I'm glad I'm not the only nutter thats thought about this.

I've been developing my gardening/farming skills I'm not counting on stores or anyone else to provide me with the veggies I need.

I'm from Alabama so hunting, trapping, and fishing are givens.

I've built plenty of houses and other structures and I know of a great place in the hills in north Geogia where I'll take the family and live as hill folk.

My time as a combat engineer I've learned a thing or two about booby traps to keep the moochers away.

Tools and things I can loot (wood bruning stoves, oil lamps, nails, etc.)

I really need to devlope my foraging skills (learn more of what plants are safe and which ones will kill me)

Basically remove the family from dense populations, probably start a commune with people I know and trust, grow raise find or kill all of our own food.

Word! Good for you man! Farming is the one area I'm really lagging in, it wont be much of a problem if I went to live with my grandfather, that guy IS farming

Any thoughts on vacuum sealing ammunition? Im thinking if I lay a couple hundred rounds out and then vacuum seal them, they'd be easier to carry in a pack that it would be to carry ammo cans full of rounds just tossed in. Is there anything with regards to corrosion that I'd need to take into account? (Im thinking would I need to individually check all my reloads to ensure they're able to be tossed in with all the others? Im not too sure how that all works yet)

[bamatank]

Word! Good for you man! Farming is the one area I'm really lagging in, it wont be much of a problem if I went to live with my grandfather, that guy IS farming

Any thoughts on vacuum sealing ammunition? Im thinking if I lay a couple hundred rounds out and then vacuum seal them, they'd be easier to carry in a pack that it would be to carry ammo cans full of rounds just tossed in. Is there anything with regards to corrosion that I'd need to take into account? (Im thinking would I need to individually check all my reloads to ensure they're able to be tossed in with all the others? Im not too sure how that all works yet)

Honestly I really don't know. I haven't given an ammo supply much thought. My plan for weapons for hunting and protection was pretty primative. I was planning on bow hunting, trapping with primative traps. I also gave thought to raising animals (chickens are easy). As far as protection the plan was to rely on the booby traps as warning and to slow intruder approach (or deter them all together) then use my primative weapons (bow, spear, hatchet, knives) to finish the job.

[jgreystoke]

I believe in the essential goodness of .45, .223 and 12 ga.

Don't forget .308!

The .223 is great. But it is not a high power rifle round. Ideal for close combat if you are backed up by arty, gunships, A-10s etc when a carbine round is not up to the job. So the military worldwide use it. When all their high tech, high maintenance backups are gone, the carbines will no longer seem like the bees knees.

So a great do-everything caliber like .308 should be around somewhere in everyone's calculations.

Even a surplus mauser with a good bore, and crates of 196grain 8mm(7.92 x 57) would do things that no .223 could possibly do.

[jgreystoke]

Just an observation...if you cant survive two weeks in the woods with just a blanket and a knife, none of you will make it long term.

You guys rely on technology too much.

Over reliance on technology is a problem for sure.

But planning to run around the boonies when they are full of mobs of people setting forest fires with their attempts to cook or keep warm is not a good idea.

If you already live in a defensible setting, no need to bug out at all.

I agree that the more basic the technology, the less likely it is to fail.

I think that a lot of people will wish they hadn't invested in Eugene Stoner's high tech, high maintenance AR system.

But seriously some technology is battle and survival proven in all terrain and climatic conditions, and with minimal or improvised maintenance:

Bolt guns:

Surplus

Mauser from 6.5mm Swede to 8mm

Lee Enfield .303

are still going strong after a century.

The latter is now being made down under on brand new #4 receivers in .308 using M-14 mags.

On the semi auto front:

Garand(the receiver has a design life of at 400,000 rounds! Now that is quality, tho' it is a lot of barrels, lol)

AK

Are the equivalents, altho' the latter is not a high power rifle.

Any one of the above rifles will last you and your grandkids the rest of your lives. Have a lot of ammo. And don't fire to intimidate. That is for people backed by quartermasters with pallet loads of ammo.

[sugicalmike]

Any one of the above rifles will last you and your grandkids the rest of your lives. Have a lot of ammo. And don't fire to intimidate. That is for people backed by quartermasters with pallet loads of ammo.

Nary a truer word has been spoken!

Basically the only thing Im relying on my guns for is gettin' out of town, as soon as I get to my Grandfathers farm it's the bow for hunting and guns for the obvious.

Very ironic, as I post this, Hank Williams just popped up on the radio, we can spit some beach nut in the eye of any dude trying to take our stuff

[Nainoa]

Im not sure what I would do, but if society collapsed I think I would be fine. I could easily survive in the wilderness for the rest of my life. I would probably pack up my kayak and head down the coast to a tropical climate.

Okay... I've thought a lot about this. (I've slowly been working on a Fictional book about the world 2000 years after the collapse of western civilization... And to do so I've had to picture "Life after the collapse.")

See I think it's easy to say "I'd be able to take care of myself."

The problem is the collapse of western civilization isn't just about if you can take care of yourself...

It's estimated right now that just under 4% of the American population has the ability to sustain itself in the wilds.

But that doesn't mean the other 96% are going to lay down and die.

In the end survival is just like the old joke, or two guys in the woods, and an angry grizzly bears suddenly comes barreling out of the forest... One guy turns to the other and says "How are we going to outrun it!" The other guy just takes off at a sprint and says "I don't have to out run the bear... I just have to out run you!"

You chances of survival a half hour out of town at your favorite huntin' spot are incredibly poor, when 10,000 City Kittys show up with their neighbors sling shot, and an incredibly pointy stick... Because even though they aren't going to get the deer... Their interferance will keep you from getting the deer.

******

And you can't just say "Well I'll go out into the blistering wilderness at the edge of hell... No one will find me there!"

What the hell are you going to do there... Jerk off until you die?

Bring a wife and just inbreed your children?

The way that this species went from being a bunch of apes tossing rocks at each other to conquering the entire planet, was by working together...

Should ALL HELL BREAK LOOSE... It will be the people who know how to bring groups of completely disorganized and realistically unskilled people together to work as a "Tribe" who will a real chance of success.

[Nainoa]

Just an observation...if you cant survive two weeks in the woods with just a blanket and a knife, none of you will make it long term.

You guys rely on technology too much.

How about living 4 miles out on an ice sheet for 16 days, when the temps barely get above 5 degrees during the day and at night it drops down to -40 to -60.

You guys can fight all ya want for years down in Texas, Florida, California etc...

Up here I just have to keep the wood stove running in my mobile camper for a couple of Months and winter kills the competition for me! (Sure will save bullets!)

[Nainoa]

I don't think canned stuff ever goes bad if stored properly. Hell if SHTF and all i have is a 11 year old can of beans best believe ima tear into that ****. I think your best bet is to get foods like rice that don't take up a lot of space but can sustain you for a long time. If all else fails we can always grill the whores.

Bad call Bro...

Canned food "Can" start to go bad in about 3 years. (Sure it can last 10, depending on the quality and cleanliness of the canner.)

Problem is if you open a can that is past 3 years, there's a Chance that Bocculism is active in it... And if it is, you're dead... Unless you heat every canned food for like 20 minutes at a roaring boil.

Bocculism isn't "Salmonella" Bocculism is your nervous system shutting down... So you're wide awake in your body slowly dieing, parlyzed, unable to speak... You suffocate when your lungs fail last, unless you're put on a Ventilator.

Sure there's onlyl like a 1% chance...

But eat 100 cans of 5+ year old food, and ask me how confident you feel about can #101?

[sugicalmike]

How about living 4 miles out on an ice sheet for 16 days, when the temps barely get above 5 degrees during the day and at night it drops down to -40 to -60.

You guys can fight all ya want for years down in Texas, Florida, California etc...

Up here I just have to keep the wood stove running in my mobile camper for a couple of Months and winter kills the competition for me! (Sure will save bullets!)

X2, Michigan winters sure do suck.... but man would they ever thin out the heard!

[Steak_n_Taters]

I saw on a blog the top priorities you need, and everything else is secondary... the 3 B's

Beans, Bandaids, and Bullets haha

And yeah I second the opinion that you need a bolt rifle. Really hard for you to mess those up. I guess that's one of the better things about my .303 (besides the power).

Also, as far as technology dependence, besides my AR15 with iron sites on it the second most technological thing I have is a portable frying pan haha.

Everything else, purifying water, starting a fire, creating a shelter, hunting without a gun, basic first aid, makin' sweet love, I can do with only the stuff in my B.O.B. or if I had to with pretty much nothing.

Mostly just need a knife and I carry one with me every day, one in my BOB, one in my car, and several others in various locations should I ever need one.

My bug out location has a well for water and a windmill for power (which I know might be an attention grabbing problem). There is plenty of room for growing simple easy stuff (tomatoes, lettuce, potatoes (it used to be a potato farm before we bought it actually)) etc. Lots of game like deer hogs and turkeys. Far away from major pop centers, and all the people that live out there pretty much live off the land or the tiny town anyway. Would be a good community to be a part of should something crazy go down. Also yes we can get to it without getting on any major high ways.

edit: I don't feel perfectly ready, and I doubt I ever will, but I feel like I'm more prepared than 95% of the country.

[FutureFoe]

edit: I don't feel perfectly ready, and I doubt I ever will, but I feel like I'm more prepared than 95% of the country.

I feel the same way! I don't by any means think I'm John Rambo, or Bear Grylls, but I do feel like I have a step up on most people. Hell, look at my avitar...I have PLENTY of stored energy...who needs canned tuna and beans!

On another note, I have never been really worried about myself...but now it's a little more complicated. I would consider myself a FAILURE at life if anything ever happened to these two....or my wife for that matter.

[sugicalmike]

edit: I don't feel perfectly ready, and I doubt I ever will, but I feel like I'm more prepared than 95% of the country.

I feel the same way! I don't by any means think I'm John Rambo, or Bear Grylls, but I do feel like I have a step up on most people. Hell, look at my avitar...I have PLENTY of stored energy...who needs canned tuna and beans!

On another note, I have never been really worried about myself...but now it's a little more complicated. I would consider myself a FAILURE at life if anything ever happened to these two....or my wife for that matter.

You know what though.... it's a good thing you guys don't consider yourselves totally prepared and ready! I've found that being satisfied with your situation breeds laziness. Call it what you want, I call it being 1 step ahead at all times!

And FutureFoe, cute kids man (no ****). It's good to see someone making them priority number one above all else! That's kinda rare where I'm from

Allright, later brahs, Im off to go grill some chicken and eat the **** out of it!

[jatt07]

thought u guys would enjoy this channel, he seems little fetishy with this though

http://youtube.com/user/visionvictory

[jgreystoke]

Okay... I've thought a lot about this. (I've slowly been working on a Fictional book about the world 2000 years after the collapse of western civilization... And to do so I've had to picture "Life after the collapse.")

See I think it's easy to say "I'd be able to take care of myself."

The problem is the collapse of western civilization isn't just about if you can take care of yourself...

It's estimated right now that just under 4% of the American population has the ability to sustain itself in the wilds.

But that doesn't mean the other 96% are going to lay down and die.

In the end survival is just like the old joke, or two guys in the woods, and an angry grizzly bears suddenly comes barreling out of the forest... One guy turns to the other and says "How are we going to outrun it!" The other guy just takes off at a sprint and says "I don't have to out run the bear... I just have to out run you!"

You chances of survival a half hour out of town at your favorite huntin' spot are incredibly poor, when 10,000 City Kittys show up with their neighbors sling shot, and an incredibly pointy stick... Because even though they aren't going to get the deer... Their interferance will keep you from getting the deer.

******

And you can't just say "Well I'll go out into the blistering wilderness at the edge of hell... No one will find me there!"

What the hell are you going to do there... Jerk off until you die?

Bring a wife and just inbreed your children?

The way that this species went from being a bunch of apes tossing rocks at each other to conquering the entire planet, was by working together...

Should ALL HELL BREAK LOOSE... It will be the people who know how to bring groups of completely disorganized and realistically unskilled people together to work as a "Tribe" who will a real chance of success.

Ace post!

[jgreystoke]

I feel the same way! I don't by any means think I'm John Rambo, or Bear Grylls, but I do feel like I have a step up on most people. Hell, look at my avitar...I have PLENTY of stored energy...who needs canned tuna and beans!

I'm with you there, lol.

On another note, I have never been really worried about myself...but now it's a little more complicated. I would consider myself a FAILURE at life if anything ever happened to these two....or my wife for that matter.

Your kids are precious, and have their whole lives ahead of them. Mine are all grown up, and I still feel the same way about them that you do. Even if I didn't give a hoot about myself, I would still have responsibilities.

My life is more than half over. And I can honestly say it was good, even tho' there were bad times. But I fear for what my kids and grandkids might have to face.

[Nainoa]

Okay... So here's something of a little educational value that I figured I'd toss into the thread... Because really... You can't survive on just meat... And most crops beans/tomatoes, many potatoes etc... fail when unattended...

So let's say you're tromping through the thickets and you come to the edge of a Farmers Corn Field. (Now 4% of the corn grown in this country is sweet corn.) So chances are it will be Dent Corn (Like you get in your tortilla or chips etc...)

Now if you just grab this corn and grind it up, and make it into a primative Grits... You will actually get the real "Montazuma's Revenge."

See the starch structures in Dent Corn are too tight for your digestive enzymes to break down to get the nutrient inside out.

Hence when Spanish Conquerers brought Corn back to the old world, everyone got Diareha and Dementia from Malnutrition.

What you need is an alkaly solution, for the process of "Nixtamalization."

These days it's done by using fancy bio-chemicals... But the Aztec simply mixed a little fine wood ash with water, and soaked the corn over night...

It's enough to break down the structures so your digestive tract can pull all of the hearty nutrients out of it...

And a couple of sips of the remaining water will also help a little bit to settle a sour stomach problem!

[Steak_n_Taters]

Okay... So here's something of a little educational value that I figured I'd toss into the thread... Because really... You can't survive on just meat... And most crops beans/tomatoes, many potatoes etc... fail when unattended...

So let's say you're tromping through the thickets and you come to the edge of a Farmers Corn Field. (Now 4% of the corn grown in this country is sweet corn.) So chances are it will be Dent Corn (Like you get in your tortilla or chips etc...)

Now if you just grab this corn and grind it up, and make it into a primative Grits... You will actually get the real "Montazuma's Revenge."

See the starch structures in Dent Corn are too tight for your digestive enzymes to break down to get the nutrient inside out.

Hence when Spanish Conquerers brought Corn back to the old world, everyone got Diareha and Dementia from Malnutrition.

What you need is an alkaly solution, for the process of "Nixtamalization."

These days it's done by using fancy bio-chemicals... But the Aztec simply mixed a little fine wood ash with water, and soaked the corn over night...

It's enough to break down the structures so your digestive tract can pull all of the hearty nutrients out of it...

And a couple of sips of the remaining water will also help a little bit to settle a sour stomach problem!

Nice post. By wood ash do you mean burn some wood and throw the ash in some water? Or is it something else?

[Nainoa]

Ace post!

Well and look at it this way...

You escape to Grandpa's farm (Let's call it a conservative 40 acres) there's deer running around like Mice...

If everyone else in the world would just die already.

There's no way you can defend 40 Acres with just You, Grandpa, your wife and your 12 year old son... Not with Automatic weapons could you defend 40 acres, plus some set aside forest.

Build a fence, and you'll just attract people.

You have to have help...

Eventually other people are going to come a calling...

At some point, maybe not right away... But eventually... You're going to have to take on other people, to protect what you've got, and help out to maintain it. (You and Grandpa aren't planting 40 acres of corn, even if Grandpa teaching you how to Yee-Haw a mule plow team!)

And part of taking people on, means at some point you have to give them a gun... So you have to develop the skill of being able to tell someone's character.

THEN do you have the personal and leadership skills to convince him to NEVER turn that gun on you and yours, to take Grandpa's farm from you?


^^^^These skills are a ****load more valueable in the long term, than stuff like "How to dry meat" and "How to reload ammo!"

[Nainoa]

Nice post. By wood ash do you mean burn some wood and throw the ash in some water? Or is it something else?

Best way to do it would be to burn hard woods (Softwoods have pitch that contains toxic chemicals)

Get a hardwood fire going...

Burn it all the way down to the fine white powder Ash (Not just coals that went out)... And then mix say half a cup with a half gallon of water. And let it sit over night...

Then the next day, drain... And you can grind the corn into a massa like paste, that you could use for grits... Or press out and cook on a hot rock for tortillas.
Or if you have a dutch oven you could make a primitive corn bread.

[Steak_n_Taters]

Best way to do it would be to burn hard woods (Softwoods have pitch that contains toxic chemicals)

Get a hardwood fire going...

Burn it all the way down to the fine white powder Ash (Not just coals that went out)... And then mix say half a cup with a half gallon of water. And let it sit over night...

Then the next day, drain... And you can grind the corn into a massa like paste, that you could use for grits... Or press out and cook on a hot rock for tortillas.
Or if you have a dutch oven you could make a primitive corn bread.

cool cool sounds easy enough. Good to know.

[bamatank]

Best way to do it would be to burn hard woods (Softwoods have pitch that contains toxic chemicals)

Get a hardwood fire going...

Burn it all the way down to the fine white powder Ash (Not just coals that went out)... And then mix say half a cup with a half gallon of water. And let it sit over night...

Then the next day, drain... And you can grind the corn into a massa like paste, that you could use for grits... Or press out and cook on a hot rock for tortillas.
Or if you have a dutch oven you could make a primitive corn bread.

Good to know.

[FutureFoe]

I'm with you there, lol.



Your kids are precious, and have their whole lives ahead of them. Mine are all grown up, and I still feel the same way about them that you do. Even if I didn't give a hoot about myself, I would still have responsibilities.

My life is more than half over. And I can honestly say it was good, even tho' there were bad times. But I fear for what my kids and grandkids might have to face.

By biggest fear is the fear of the unknown. Right now, what sort of place the world will be when they are my age is unknown...so it scares me.

[dito]

We are looking into getting canned food and rice. Also we have a sun room we started gardening in. I guess the Mormons have a pretty good canned food stocking program. Eventually we want to switch to solar and wind power. Solar heat would be nice but it's not really feasible.

I have my bow, a .270, 12 ga shotgun, .22 semi auto rifle and now a .45. Just need to stock up on ammo and what not.

[Nainoa]

We are looking into getting canned food and rice. Also we have a sun room we started gardening in. I guess the Mormons have a pretty good canned food stocking program. Eventually we want to switch to solar and wind power. Solar heat would be nice but it's not really feasible.

I have my bow, a .270, 12 ga shotgun, .22 semi auto rifle and now a .45. Just need to stock up on ammo and what not.

Well if you want cheap independent heat, screw solar... Go with an outdoor wood boiler: http://www.nextlevelsolutionz.com/

I'm getting one installed in my new house (Might build) but you can install them into a pre-existing home... But if you build yourself you can make in floor heating!

I've been looking into it simply because up here in MN I'm tired of my utility bills being tied to crooked ass energy companies... But for survival purposes if you've got your "Compoud" it's an excellent cheap independent heating method.

*****

As for Canned food...

Really... Food you can yourself guys is only going to have a shelf life of around a year... And even then you'd have to keep it at Refridgerator temps to extend that.

What you want to look into is actual fermentation pickling...

You see when you ferment pickle food the Asetavactors (Spelling really bad on that one) get into the tissues of the food... And they're a type of Micro organism that is fine for you (Actually kind of healthy for your digestive tract.) While at the same time these good micro ogranisms hate the types of bacteria that are bad for you.

While shelf life varries wildly depending on the food... It can be a 3-5 year solution for preserving extra food stores, where the traditional canning is only like 1-2 MAX!

My father was born in 1938, and as such my Grandparents who survived the depression, taught him a system of rotating stock... You had fresh canned, pickled, and then dried... Then staples like Flour, Rice etc... And so these were all staggered so that you were never dependent on any one reserve of food.

*****

I mean really guys this survival game thing is more than just "Get me up to a farm and shoot some deer on the side."

All hell breaks loose, the city guys will of course be the first to go... But the "Get to the Farm and shoot some deer" and that's all you got... I hate to say it... But that isn't such a good bet, if you don't know how to do all of these little things.

Because let's face it... You can't friggin' shoot spoiled food and make it fresh again!

*****

Another question:

What are you going to do when 2 years from now your shoes are wearing off your feet and your clothes are turning into tattered rags?

[sugicalmike]

Well if you want cheap independent heat, screw solar... Go with an outdoor wood boiler: http://www.nextlevelsolutionz.com/

I'm getting one installed in my new house (Might build) but you can install them into a pre-existing home... But if you build yourself you can make in floor heating!

I've been looking into it simply because up here in MN I'm tired of my utility bills being tied to crooked ass energy companies... But for survival purposes if you've got your "Compoud" it's an excellent cheap independent heating method.

*****

As for Canned food...

Really... Food you can yourself guys is only going to have a shelf life of around a year... And even then you'd have to keep it at Refridgerator temps to extend that.

What you want to look into is actual fermentation pickling...

You see when you ferment pickle food the Asetavactors (Spelling really bad on that one) get into the tissues of the food... And they're a type of Micro organism that is fine for you (Actually kind of healthy for your digestive tract.) While at the same time these good micro ogranisms hate the types of bacteria that are bad for you.

While shelf life varries wildly depending on the food... It can be a 3-5 year solution for preserving extra food stores, where the traditional canning is only like 1-2 MAX!

My father was born in 1938, and as such my Grandparents who survived the depression, taught him a system of rotating stock... You had fresh canned, pickled, and then dried... Then staples like Flour, Rice etc... And so these were all staggered so that you were never dependent on any one reserve of food.

*****

I mean really guys this survival game thing is more than just "Get me up to a farm and shoot some deer on the side."

All hell breaks loose, the city guys will of course be the first to go... But the "Get to the Farm and shoot some deer" and that's all you got... I hate to say it... But that isn't such a good bet, if you don't know how to do all of these little things.

Because let's face it... You can't friggin' shoot spoiled food and make it fresh again!

*****

Another question:

What are you going to do when 2 years from now your shoes are wearing off your feet and your clothes are turning into tattered rags?

Excellent! My grandfather has a woodburning furnace and I'll tell you what, that thing is amazing! he'll throw two pieces in on top of whats already going every five hours (an extra piece before he hits the rack), Im not too sure, but I'll imagine he doesn't even go through a cord in a week and it keeps his house at an excellent temperature even during the coldest winters! Im really going to look into one of those systems depending on where I live.

Of course I'll also look into solar and wind, I know they've got their ups and downs, but it's better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it. Besides, the government is subsidizing that sort of stuff right now, my neighbor owns a dairy farm and he was granted something to the tune of $15,000 to install a small-scale wind turbine on his farm, it powers all his barns and the milking barn as well and he figures it'll pay off itself in about seven years.

and to answer your last question about shoes and clothes..... I've always been looking for an occasion to wear a loin clothe

[Steak_n_Taters]

Another question:

What are you going to do when 2 years from now your shoes are wearing off your feet and your clothes are turning into tattered rags?

LOL It's kind of funny but we actually have several pairs per person of oldish shoes and boots saved up at our ranch. Originally it was because things would get really muddy up there sometimes so we would just leave the really muddy shoes there when we left so they could dry, and knock it off the next month or whenever we went back, but we ended up with a stockpile of several dozen shoes now in various sizes. Sort of a happy accident I suppose. If those run out (would probably take a decade or two to go through all of them) then I guess through trial and error I'll have to learn to make moccasins or something if I don't learn before hand (hope I can remember those instructions from scouts...).

On a side note what are some really good all purpose hiking/tactical/warm boots that are tough as hell and not over $100? I want something that would last years and years that I can do anything with. Hopefully rattlesnake proof as those are abundant on our land. I have western boots and some hunting boots and stuff but nothing truly "all-purpose do anything in them."

As far as clothes... I don't really know. That will be something to think about. I know how to do basic stitching, and know how to and have the tools to stitch and cut really thick leather (making sheaths was/is sort of a hobby of mine). I guess I ought to get some quality heavy cloth and find a place to store it up there? I don't have patterns but with knowing how to sew I ought to be able to make some rudimentary pants/sweaters. At least enough to keep me warm and protected from the elements.

I need to learn to tan deer hides.

and to answer your last question about shoes and clothes..... I've always been looking for an occasion to wear a loin clothe

lol

[Nainoa]

Excellent! My grandfather has a woodburning furnace and I'll tell you what, that thing is amazing! he'll throw two pieces in on top of whats already going every five hours (an extra piece before he hits the rack), Im not too sure, but I'll imagine he doesn't even go through a cord in a week and it keeps his house at an excellent temperature even during the coldest winters! Im really going to look into one of those systems depending on where I live.

Of course I'll also look into solar and wind, I know they've got their ups and downs, but it's better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it. Besides, the government is subsidizing that sort of stuff right now, my neighbor owns a dairy farm and he was granted something to the tune of $15,000 to install a small-scale wind turbine on his farm, it powers all his barns and the milking barn as well and he figures it'll pay off itself in about seven years.

and to answer your last question about shoes and clothes..... I've always been looking for an occasion to wear a loin clothe

See the problem with an indoor wood furnace is that until civilization falls... Your home owners insurance will RAPE YOU like a Bangcock slave boy.

Straight up indoor wood heat, can sometimes DOUBLE your premium...

And outdoor boiler (MN has to be set 12 feet from the house.) they don't jack the premium on.

*Outdoor boiler in the depths of winter... A good one you have to reload twice... Once in the morning and once at night.

[Nainoa]

LOL It's kind of funny but we actually have several pairs per person of oldish shoes and boots saved up at our ranch. Originally it was because things would get really muddy up there sometimes so we would just leave the really muddy shoes there when we left so they could dry, and knock it off the next month or whenever we went back, but we ended up with a stockpile of several dozen shoes now in various sizes. Sort of a happy accident I suppose. If those run out (would probably take a decade or two to go through all of them) then I guess through trial and error I'll have to learn to make moccasins or something if I don't learn before hand (hope I can remember those instructions from scouts...).

On a side note what are some really good all purpose hiking/tactical/warm boots that are tough as hell and not over $100? I want something that would last years and years that I can do anything with. Hopefully rattlesnake proof as those are abundant on our land. I have western boots and some hunting boots and stuff but nothing truly "all-purpose do anything in them."

As far as clothes... I don't really know. That will be something to think about. I know how to do basic stitching, and know how to and have the tools to stitch and cut really thick leather (making sheaths was/is sort of a hobby of mine). I guess I ought to get some quality heavy cloth and find a place to store it up there? I don't have patterns but with knowing how to sew I ought to be able to make some rudimentary pants/sweaters. At least enough to keep me warm and protected from the elements.

I need to learn to tan deer hides.



lol

The problem... Once again... Isn't "Can you take care of yourself." It happens when you say "Have Kids" Or your wife only has 1 pair of shoes that fits her size 4 feet.

There's a MASSIVE skill set that you need to not just survive... But to pass on...

Right now the world, and civilization has this sort of foreboding feeling that things are going to collapse... And at the heart of it is the "I can take care of me and mine, so I don't need to worry about anything else."

So if you carry that same attitude over into your "Worst Case Scenario" you're bringing the same fundamentally flawed & failed idea with you... In the end it will cause you to fail.

For thousands of years this species claimed dominion over this planet not by "Taking care of myself." It wasn't technology... It wasn't the thumb, or the plow, or fire, or guns... It was our ability to work together for a common goal... Our willingness to "Be my brother's keeper."

Modern convenience has allowed us to live this Semi-Solitary lifestyle... And it's this very thing that is rotting us from within.

And that's where the paradox comes in... If everyone is out to get you, how to do help someone and let them help you?

You can shoot a million deer... But until you learn how to use Human Resources, from the big to the small picture... Your kids will die a miserable death!

[Steak_n_Taters]

The problem... Once again... Isn't "Can you take care of yourself." It happens when you say "Have Kids" Or your wife only has 1 pair of shoes that fits her size 4 feet.

There's a MASSIVE skill set that you need to not just survive... But to pass on...

Right now the world, and civilization has this sort of foreboding feeling that things are going to collapse... And at the heart of it is the "I can take care of me and mine, so I don't need to worry about anything else."

So if you carry that same attitude over into your "Worst Case Scenario" you're bringing the same fundamentally flawed & failed idea with you... In the end it will cause you to fail.

For thousands of years this species claimed dominion over this planet not by "Taking care of myself." It wasn't technology... It wasn't the thumb, or the plow, or fire, or guns... It was our ability to work together for a common goal... Our willingness to "Be my brother's keeper."

Modern convenience has allowed us to live this Semi-Solitary lifestyle... And it's this very thing that is rotting us from within.

And that's where the paradox comes in... If everyone is out to get you, how to do help someone and let them help you?

You can shoot a million deer... But until you learn how to use Human Resources, from the big to the small picture... Your kids will die a miserable death!

I'm not disagreeing with you here.

Where do I go about learning to make shoes?

[bamatank]

As for Canned food...

Really... Food you can yourself guys is only going to have a shelf life of around a year... And even then you'd have to keep it at Refridgerator temps to extend that.

What you want to look into is actual fermentation pickling...

You see when you ferment pickle food the Asetavactors (Spelling really bad on that one) get into the tissues of the food... And they're a type of Micro organism that is fine for you (Actually kind of healthy for your digestive tract.) While at the same time these good micro ogranisms hate the types of bacteria that are bad for you.

While shelf life varries wildly depending on the food... It can be a 3-5 year solution for preserving extra food stores, where the traditional canning is only like 1-2 MAX!

My father was born in 1938, and as such my Grandparents who survived the depression, taught him a system of rotating stock... You had fresh canned, pickled, and then dried... Then staples like Flour, Rice etc... And so these were all staggered so that you were never dependent on any one reserve of food.

Canning food is only so that you can eat the veggies you grew all summer in the winter. A diet of only meat in the winter makes for a miserable winter, but if you can some veggie from the summer it will get you threw untill the next planting season.

As for shoes. I've already made myself some Ho Chi Min sandles (for ****s and giggles). It isn't a stretch to make the same sole from a tire and them use rags or even leather that you've cleaned and tanned from the animals you've eaten into an upper. Clothes are one of those things where a commune will be needed. Cotton is common down here but its not a stretch to have a few sheep or goats in your commune and come together to weeve cloth and then make clothes.