PROBLEMS with Primal Male (RE: Icariins & Fadogia and Testicular Issues)

[INGENIUM]

Go to the Planet of Nutra and look it up. They have the actual label posted and its Icarrin.

I think bb.com has it wrong.

this label also says icarins

http://www.forum.bodybuilding.com/sh...31&postcount=7

[dtrain13]

The write-up describes what SHOULD be in there, the label shows what actually IS in there...

BB.com made a typo in the supplement facts. They've done it many times before and I'm sure it will be corrected. Don't you have some Androwhateverthef*ckitscalled to sell???

[dtrain13]

this label also says icarins

http://www.forum.bodybuilding.com/sh...31&postcount=7

Well f*ck it let MAN explain it because I don't know.

[user23960508710785]

Supplement Facts

Serving Size: 6 Man-Caps
Servings per Container: 20


Amount Per Serving % Daily Value

Fadogia Agrestis SE
(alkaloids, saponins, anthraquinones, and flavonoids) 1500 mg **
Eucommia ulmoides (standardized for full spectrum of triterpenoids and phytolipids) 1200 mg **
Epimedium species [E. sagittatum, E. grandiflorum, E. brevicornum] (standardized to 20 % Icariin) 450 mg **
Indole 3 Carbinol (I3C) 300 mg **
Zinc (from Zinc Orotate) 30 mg **
Copper Orotate 3 mg **
Vitamin B6 (as Pyridoxine HCl) 10 mg **

[dtrain13]

See above^^^^

[user23960508710785]

Well, either way, I'd like MAN to explain their reasoning for the Fadogia extract, what exactly Eucommia does and how it works, and the epimedium extract.

[INGENIUM]

Well, either way, I'd like MAN to explain their reasoning for the Fadogia extract, what exactly Eucommia does and how it works, and the epimedium extract.

there are some older threads around here and M&M about eucommia...

search for phytoandrogens

[SupremeSE]

Well, either way, I'd like MAN to explain their reasoning for the Fadogia extract, what exactly Eucommia does and how it works, and the epimedium extract.

Bump

[njmuscle66]

isnt that link to an outside vendor? You can get banned for that

We can only hope that happens

[user1111]

Taken from ANABOLIC MINDS: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/suppl...epimedium.html

Icariin and Icariins from Epimedium extract

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hello, recently we received many business partners feedback. In
international market, there are different Epimedium extracts. My
business partners are confused by their quality and price. Now, we
will introduce them clearely below.


Both of them declared they are Epimedium extract. However, there are
different in their COAs. One showed assay Icariin(HPLC), Another
showed Icariins(HPLC). The difference between them is "S" behaind
icariin. It really is a little difference. Someone will ignore it.
However, it caused big difference in quality and price.


Epimedium extract has a long history in chines traddtional medicine.
Chinese medicine experts researched it for many years and established
strictly quality standard. It was documented in chinese pharmacopoeia.
We will attached in our forum files. Members can download it freely.
This analysis method is stable and is used by chinese SFDA. It also is
a purchase standard accpeted by chinese epimeidum extract fomula GMP
factory.


Then, when Icariins came forth? When epimedium extract just entered
USA market, No one knew who set up a analysis method to identified
icariin. Maybe a researcher in a USA lab or a teacher in a university.
However, their method isn't precise. it can't separate icariin from
its impurity. Later, they found it is a mistake. Finally, they named
their result is Icariins, sometime they said it double icariin and
named correct single icariin.


Then, we will asked them, since you decleared "double", could you
showed us, what is their chmecal structure and CAS No.? What is their
molecular weight? what is your reference standards? One or two? As we
know, they only use Icariin as HPLC standard reference, then, how to
get the concentration result of double?


We did lots of works about epimedium extract. We compared two kinds of
analysis method. We found, Analysis method of Icariins can't separate
icariin. The peak of icariins were composed by 2-3 chemical substance.
One is icariin, another can't be identified.


Then, conclusion is clearly, Icariins analysis result is higher than
Icariin. The cost of Icariins is lower than Icariin. Lower price
abstract attension of market. However, please be careful in
specification.


I C A R I I N or I C A R I I N S

Hey this is my post from my source in China...that is all:}

The scientist that posted the insight also sold me this:

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/aqb/icarian50.html

50% icariins..

[user23960508710785]

Hey this is my post from my source in China...that is all:}

The scientist that posted the insight also sold me this:

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/aqb/icarian50.html

50% icariins..

when you say icariins, do you mean icariin or icariins? lol
now.. i would believe thats typo

[Jamps]

Took a bottle and a half = not impressed.

im about half way through the bottle and so far nothing really atypical in terms of gains. Libido is up a bit though it's far from being noteworthy.

[Jamps]

-----------

Its good to see that Primal Male uses the proper stem extract of Fadogia, but its a little bit disappointingly to find out that it can have negative effects on testes, which makes me wonder why they recommend it for PCT? It really looks like a no-go for anyone who is shutdown.

I am sure Fadogia would be a great test booster but it seems unwise to be used POST-CYCLE as intratesticular testosterone is already depleted.

im pretty sure that someone from either Man or Omega sports said that they wouldn't recommend it being used during pct (matpal &/or Bane)

[matpal]

Yes, I do not advise use in PCT.

Although the researchers believe that if the rats were not killed to be examined so early, they would have received soon, it is still an unnecessary risk, IMO. However, if dose is cut in half, I could see no problem in doing so.

[dinoiii]

Oh boy ? I did just sit through reading all that with the same players leading ass-clown nation. What I think unfortunately happened is I actually lost brain cell functioning in the process which is unfortunate. Alas I digress?

Suggested pontification about herbal products and herbal extracts is better left to those with any kind of herbal study history behind them rather than ass-clown company owners known to suggest nothing more than inaccuracy after inaccuracy. As such, I am tired of being on the R&D team (indirectly of course because I tend to not get along well with imaginary friends) of SSE without getting any kind of compensation.

Nonetheless, I will PAY for someone to show me a discrepency in the studies available of the extract used in the MAN product and what is purported as the mechanism of action (I await the crickets). But, we?ll do as usual and be referenced in by PM to merely tell everyone what is adequately available ? conspiracy theorists aside, because, let?s face it ? without drama on this site, it would collapse.

In any event, one must consider many different notions ? first, which species of Epimedium is used. Seven of the better-known species have been used rather indiscriminately in the studies in question AND each has varying levels of icariins available. Yinyanghuo refers to the whole plant of Epimedium sagittatum (Sieb. et Zucc.) Maxim., Epimedium brevicornum Maxim. and Epimedium macranthum Morr. et Decne (Berberidaceae). The stem and leaf of E. sagittatum contain icariin, des-O-methylicariin, .beta.-anhydroicaritin and magnoflorine. The underground part contains the flavone des-O-methyl-.beta.-anhydroicaritin, icariins A, B, C, D and E, and lignan. EACH ONE, AS HAS ALREADY BEEN DISCUSSED HAS BEEN ASSESSED TO POSSESS DIFFERENT EFFECTS THAT CONTRIBUTE TO THE POSITIVE EFFECTS OF EPIMEDIUM.

What we?re always interested in for this subsector of the industry is a misnomer at best. Increased Test is seen as inherently good, Decreased Cortisol is seen as inherently good and all other hormones follow suit as good or bad, but each has their place. Does each and every one individually translate into increased muscle mass?c?mon, gimme a break. Quantitative dictates qualitative here actually (kind of a rarity).

Traditional Chinese Medicine to encourage sexual performance and support healthy testosterone production, thus promoting sexual energy and overall sexual wellbeing. (Fukai T, Nomura T. ?Seven prenylated flavonol glycosides from two Epimedium species?. Phytochemistry: 1998:27:259-266). That?s correct ? SEVEN constituents were evaluated. But, who cares right? as we already said, increased libido too wouldn?t necessarily equate into body composition changes. Well, tell that to the guy with a low libido. The icariin in question that supports PDE5 inhibition to stimulate said effects is NOT the only way this works and each in and of themselves do NOT submit to the attempts by mass hysterics on bb.com at an attempt to discredit all of what we have just talked about.

How about supportive effects?

Pro-thyroid and Anti-cortisol properties each indirectly supports a pro-testosterone environment, but ass-clown nation may actually find that challenging to interpret once perusing through all the very bad science of a plethora of in vitros. Instead of getting into an abstract war and do all the work, you can read some below:

Wu T, Cui L, Zhang Z, Chen Z, Li Q, Liao J, Huang L. (1996). Experimental study on antagonizing action of herba Epimedii on side effects induced by glucocorticoids. Zhongguo Zhong Yao Za Zhi, 21, 748-751

Bucci, L.R. (2000). Selected herbals and human exercise performance. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 72, 624S-636S

Kuang AK, Chen JL, Chen MD. (1989). Effects of yang-restoring herb medicines on the levels of plasma corticosterone, testosterone and triiodothyronine. Zhong Xi Yi Jie He Za Zhi, 9, 737-738



But really, is this all? C?mon ? how about AChE (Acetylcholinestrase) activity, nerve stimulation and/or dopamine agonism? Think this has any potential at stimulating sexual neurotransmitters? Very likely. But instead, we?ll be very bad scientists at that and cite one out of a plethora in our survey and suggest it to be the end-all-be-all study.

How about MAO (Monoamine Oxidase) inhibition? All attributed to various extracts here. Think this might increase the levels of catecholamines (circulating and otherwise)? How many actually know what the hell they are? Think an overriding ability of pro-dopaminergic activity would at all encourage the release of Leutinizing Hormone (LH) from the pituitary? YESSIR! In fact, probably better-so than many things.


I could go on and on actually ? but the point of the matter is ? far too many companies are then trying to change researched extracts....40% Icariin, 50% Icariin, Do I hear 60% anyone? Then they apply research done with lower extracts to their write-up. Pretty sly, I do admit. Follow it up by Petri studies to suggest their extract is THE one and viola, they have themselves a purdy little product many people of the public domain would likely buy into.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Moving along?

SSE can take his continual discussion of protodioscin and shove it because it is the EXACT same pontification, but seeing how we are into starting conspiracy theories, I have one that too can be backed up by research because I am sick and tired of his pimping the crap out of his horse**** products! In fact, I think he?d be best to call upon his imaginary friend ? the handy scientist to contest the following, because he?s certainly not qualified.


Even the mechanism behind tribulus is unclear. The LH-mimetic effect projection gets a lot of play time in the ads, but this is hardly agreed upon. Protodioscin converts to DHEA, which likely undergoes a conversion to both test AND estrogen (yup, this sounds like the frishiznit for post-cycle regimes everywhere). Think about the upstream nature of DHEA. Think about how DHEA concurrently administered with tamoxifen therapy actually NEGATES tamoxifen. But anyway ? try again with your suggested ?innovation.?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Fadogia

How many literal times do we have to go through the same thing here?

LH-mimetic offering is NOT the only suggestion for how this is hypothesized to work. Let?s take your prototypical PH/PS/DeS/AAS user into account experiencing testicular shrinkage?the increased cholesterol synthesis at the level of the testes is likely a very important antagonistic mechanism to the pathology in question.

Let?s also understand how the HPTA works before responding. And understand, all things aside, the multiple offerings here at work in completion before an additional conspiracy theory begins ? dissolution of the tuberous outline is a rate-limited offering and one that I will not merely adopt like many ? the ?wishy-washy? subjective mentality that would merely suggest I am playing holier than thou and/or the mere fact that I don?t understand what the hell I am talking about.


Its threads like these that ARE dictated by supply-side much like random journals, but that would require how the industry really works ? save the big ?ginormous? labs and ?random? farms to chase around a rare pig?s saliva, or seeking out this rare extract off the cost of India somewhere (that cannot be disclosed for fear that you all would obviously seek out my source), and cleverly disguising my ingredients as being the rarest of the rare, super-duper (yet completely DSHEA compliant, of course) extract ? one that I can apply apparently directly to research indicating the actual extracts showing benefit and to top it off, I?ll even cite such literature in my attempts to maintain legitimacy, however ? this still doesn?t even compare to our oooober, dupppper extract ?bro,? I assure you.


WOW!

D_

[realitysfringe]

Yes, I do not advise use in PCT.

I guess I ****ed up.

[Oddball8945]

good too see you here dinoiii

On a side note, just to add...before the title said PROBLEMS with primal male, this thread had a more "relaxed" title that sounded like it was open to discussion. I cought the title edit, to problems shortly after and thats when people started pouring in and posting

Kind of sad that O/P had to change the title to PROBLEMS just to get attention...........

[GeneGnomeX]

I love it when dinoiii gets annoyed

[user23960508710785]

im about half way through the bottle and so far nothing really atypical in terms of gains. Libido is up a bit though it's far from being noteworthy.

hmm that sucks
if you order from bodybuilding.com, like you know you should, you can return the product for your money back

im pretty sure that someone from either Man or Omega sports said that they wouldn't recommend it being used during pct (matpal &/or Bane)

Well, going by the write-up:
1- "Helps to support production of testosterone, aids HPTA recovery"
2- "In times of inevitable shutdown of your hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular-axis (HPTA) use of anabolic substances, aiding recovery is a feature of this compound."

Yes, I do not advise use in PCT.

Although the researchers believe that if the rats were not killed to be examined so early, they would have received soon, it is still an unnecessary risk, IMO. However, if dose is cut in half, I could see no problem in doing so.

I suppose. Well, its good that you agree.
However, cutting the dose in half probably wouldn't do much.

[user23960508710785]

Oh boy ? I did just sit through reading all that with the same players leading ass-clown nation. What I think unfortunately happened is I actually lost brain cell functioning in the process which is unfortunate. Alas I digress?

Suggested pontification about herbal products and herbal extracts is better left to those with any kind of herbal study history behind them rather than ass-clown company owners known to suggest nothing more than inaccuracy after inaccuracy. As such, I am tired of being on the R&D team (indirectly of course because I tend to not get along well with imaginary friends) of SSE without getting any kind of compensation.

Nonetheless, I will PAY for someone to show me a discrepency in the studies available of the extract used in the MAN product and what is purported as the mechanism of action (I await the crickets). But, we?ll do as usual and be referenced in by PM to merely tell everyone what is adequately available ? conspiracy theorists aside, because, let?s face it ? without drama on this site, it would collapse.

In any event, one must consider many different notions ? first, which species of Epimedium is used. Seven of the better-known species have been used rather indiscriminately in the studies in question AND each has varying levels of icariins available. Yinyanghuo refers to the whole plant of Epimedium sagittatum (Sieb. et Zucc.) Maxim., Epimedium brevicornum Maxim. and Epimedium macranthum Morr. et Decne (Berberidaceae). The stem and leaf of E. sagittatum contain icariin, des-O-methylicariin, .beta.-anhydroicaritin and magnoflorine. The underground part contains the flavone des-O-methyl-.beta.-anhydroicaritin, icariins A, B, C, D and E, and lignan. EACH ONE, AS HAS ALREADY BEEN DISCUSSED HAS BEEN ASSESSED TO POSSESS DIFFERENT EFFECTS THAT CONTRIBUTE TO THE POSITIVE EFFECTS OF EPIMEDIUM.

What we?re always interested in for this subsector of the industry is a misnomer at best. Increased Test is seen as inherently good, Decreased Cortisol is seen as inherently good and all other hormones follow suit as good or bad, but each has their place. Does each and every one individually translate into increased muscle mass?c?mon, gimme a break. Quantitative dictates qualitative here actually (kind of a rarity).

Traditional Chinese Medicine to encourage sexual performance and support healthy testosterone production, thus promoting sexual energy and overall sexual wellbeing. (Fukai T, Nomura T. ?Seven prenylated flavonol glycosides from two Epimedium species?. Phytochemistry: 1998:27:259-266). That?s correct ? SEVEN constituents were evaluated. But, who cares right? as we already said, increased libido too wouldn?t necessarily equate into body composition changes. Well, tell that to the guy with a low libido. The icariin in question that supports PDE5 inhibition to stimulate said effects is NOT the only way this works and each in and of themselves do NOT submit to the attempts by mass hysterics on bb.com at an attempt to discredit all of what we have just talked about.

How about supportive effects?

Pro-thyroid and Anti-cortisol properties each indirectly supports a pro-testosterone environment, but ass-clown nation may actually find that challenging to interpret once perusing through all the very bad science of a plethora of in vitros. Instead of getting into an abstract war and do all the work, you can read some below:

Wu T, Cui L, Zhang Z, Chen Z, Li Q, Liao J, Huang L. (1996). Experimental study on antagonizing action of herba Epimedii on side effects induced by glucocorticoids. Zhongguo Zhong Yao Za Zhi, 21, 748-751

Bucci, L.R. (2000). Selected herbals and human exercise performance. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 72, 624S-636S

Kuang AK, Chen JL, Chen MD. (1989). Effects of yang-restoring herb medicines on the levels of plasma corticosterone, testosterone and triiodothyronine. Zhong Xi Yi Jie He Za Zhi, 9, 737-738



But really, is this all? C?mon ? how about AChE (Acetylcholinestrase) activity, nerve stimulation and/or dopamine agonism? Think this has any potential at stimulating sexual neurotransmitters? Very likely. But instead, we?ll be very bad scientists at that and cite one out of a plethora in our survey and suggest it to be the end-all-be-all study.

How about MAO (Monoamine Oxidase) inhibition? All attributed to various extracts here. Think this might increase the levels of catecholamines (circulating and otherwise)? How many actually know what the hell they are? Think an overriding ability of pro-dopaminergic activity would at all encourage the release of Leutinizing Hormone (LH) from the pituitary? YESSIR! In fact, probably better-so than many things.


I could go on and on actually ? but the point of the matter is ? far too many companies are then trying to change researched extracts....40% Icariin, 50% Icariin, Do I hear 60% anyone? Then they apply research done with lower extracts to their write-up. Pretty sly, I do admit. Follow it up by Petri studies to suggest their extract is THE one and viola, they have themselves a purdy little product many people of the public domain would likely buy into.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Moving along?

SSE can take his continual discussion of protodioscin and shove it because it is the EXACT same pontification, but seeing how we are into starting conspiracy theories, I have one that too can be backed up by research because I am sick and tired of his pimping the crap out of his horse**** products! In fact, I think he?d be best to call upon his imaginary friend ? the handy scientist to contest the following, because he?s certainly not qualified.


Even the mechanism behind tribulus is unclear. The LH-mimetic effect projection gets a lot of play time in the ads, but this is hardly agreed upon. Protodioscin converts to DHEA, which likely undergoes a conversion to both test AND estrogen (yup, this sounds like the frishiznit for post-cycle regimes everywhere). Think about the upstream nature of DHEA. Think about how DHEA concurrently administered with tamoxifen therapy actually NEGATES tamoxifen. But anyway ? try again with your suggested ?innovation.?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Fadogia

How many literal times do we have to go through the same thing here?

LH-mimetic offering is NOT the only suggestion for how this is hypothesized to work. Let?s take your prototypical PH/PS/DeS/AAS user into account experiencing testicular shrinkage?the increased cholesterol synthesis at the level of the testes is likely a very important antagonistic mechanism to the pathology in question.

Let?s also understand how the HPTA works before responding. And understand, all things aside, the multiple offerings here at work in completion before an additional conspiracy theory begins ? dissolution of the tuberous outline is a rate-limited offering and one that I will not merely adopt like many ? the ?wishy-washy? subjective mentality that would merely suggest I am playing holier than thou and/or the mere fact that I don?t understand what the hell I am talking about.


Its threads like these that ARE dictated by supply-side much like random journals, but that would require how the industry really works ? save the big ?ginormous? labs and ?random? farms to chase around a rare pig?s saliva, or seeking out this rare extract off the cost of India somewhere (that cannot be disclosed for fear that you all would obviously seek out my source), and cleverly disguising my ingredients as being the rarest of the rare, super-duper (yet completely DSHEA compliant, of course) extract ? one that I can apply apparently directly to research indicating the actual extracts showing benefit and to top it off, I?ll even cite such literature in my attempts to maintain legitimacy, however ? this still doesn?t even compare to our oooober, dupppper extract ?bro,? I assure you.


WOW!

D_

you need some lessons in formating text and organizing information. they didn't teach you this at school?

[eldawg]

The formula only has 3 Testosterone boosting ingredients.

A) Fadogia (which has bad rep for no standard extract and has may impair testicular function
B) Epimedium (which is in the wrong extract)
C) Eucommia (which I'm not sure does anything - need more evidence and results)

So why did you buy it?

[user23960508710785]

So why did you buy it?

probably impulse/hype
fadogia sounded good, but ishould have looked into it more

[Oddball8945]

i can't wait till my blood test results are in, this should be fun is all i can say

[matpal]

probably impulse/hype
fadogia sounded good, but ishould have looked into it more

I don't think there is any "hype" in the sense of unsubstantiated claims about it. Although a competing product, Primal Male is superbly formulated and dosed, IMO.

[user23960508710785]

I don't think there is any "hype" in the sense of unsubstantiated claims about it. Although a competing product, Primal Male is superbly formulated and dosed, IMO.

yeah, i was actually convinced by T-FORCE claims and 200% refund that Fadogia works, so i thought Hey Primal Male should be great. Its kind funny how your product convinced me to buy Primal Male lol

But I'm on it now and still haven't felt much, but I'm just curious on why the product was formulated the way it was. I guess Dinoii tried to clear things up but he never answered anythign, and honestly, I cant understand what he writes

[xjsynx]

you need some lessons in formating text and organizing information. they didn't teach you this at school?

Translation: My feeble little brain didn't comprehend a word you just said.

In other words

[SupremeSE]

hmm that sucks
if you order from bodybuilding.com, like you know you should, you can return the product for your money back



Well, going by the write-up:
1- "Helps to support production of testosterone, aids HPTA recovery"
2- "In times of inevitable shutdown of your hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular-axis (HPTA) use of anabolic substances, aiding recovery is a feature of this compound."


I suppose. Well, its good that you agree.
However, cutting the dose in half probably wouldn't do much.

DAMN!

OWNAGE!!!!!

[user23960508710785]

Translation: My feeble little brain didn't comprehend a word you just said.

In other words

[Tkenshin]

MAN is one of the most reputable companies out there, they wouldn't try and scam us out with less than high quality ingredients. I was on PM for 6 weeks 5 on 2 off, and the main thing i noticed is that i turned into an asehole during that time. usually im nice person, lol i can only wonder what would happen if im on test.

[dinoiii]

you need some lessons in formating text and organizing information. they didn't teach you this at school?

One course that was left out was Ass Clown 101.

Let me encourage you to appreciate what happens to font when transferred from a WORD document into this forum.

Replace "?" with either apostrophes and/or quotations and you have something that closer approximates my retort (which incidentally wasn't even directed at you per se). Now, I have no care in the world for you to be honest seeing how you have taken it upon yourself - in true bb message forum fashion - to try and attack me rather than the information written.

Hopefully, I used nothing too big in this one.


D_