I have poor ankle mobility, want to do low bar squats, but still rounding

[pyaarawala]

This video below shows my poor ankle mobility (which I'm working on) because I can't get any lower on these high bar squats w/out rounding. I stop a bit above parallel because I can't shove my knees out any more due to poor ankle mobility:



Now you're probably wondering why I'm doing high bar squats when I want to do low bar. Because it seems the only way I can get below parallel w/out rounding is with a very upright torso, and I can only accomplish this if I have my arms out straight in front of me like a zombie. So I thought I gotta go high bar to get an upright torso, and if I go low bar I'll round more easily since I have a less upright torso.

These are my low bar squats, where I still have rounding:



So I can't do high bar due to bad ankle mobility, and I can't do low bar cuz of the forward lean position making it too hard to keep the back straight. So what exactly am I supposed to do? I'm squeezing my hip flexors (drop the dick) and actively arching in both videos. Is it possible the ankle mobility is also the problem in my low bar squats?

[paulosantos0922]

How wide are your feet? When you HB, start with shoulder width, not too wide and just squat down and use the bounce to come up. I don't see it as an ankle mobility issue but more as a form issue with you.

[gmanfootballguy]

Work on ankle mobility and stretch out your lateral hamstring and both problems will disappear

[breathinglife]

I don't really believe that is a mobility problem--look at the way you hesitate and then keep going down. You just need to go all the way down. What happens when you do that? Do you fall over? Or do your squats just look bad?

I've trained many, many people to do squats. Almost all of them think they can't go all the way down, that they aren't flexible enough. In all my years of training people I've never encountered a single instance where this was actually the case. If you aren't 60 or more years old, or over 350 lbs, mobility probably isn't going to actually prevent you from breaking parallel.

Of course, stretching will help--don't stop doing that. But you just need to go all the way down on your squats. You're keeping all tight in a weird way and clearly stopping above parallel on purpose. Post a video of what happens when you squat all the way down, and then maybe we can help you analyze.

For some reason a LOT of beginners try to set up these Catch 22 situations for themselves where they are supposedly just unable to do basic movements. Anyone should be able to squat down unless they are aged and/or disabled.

EDIT: This sentence doesn't make any sense: "I stop a bit above parallel because I can't shove my knees out any more due to poor ankle mobility."
I think you just need to point your toes out more. This will reduce your forward knee travel.

[Aeorius]

I don't really believe that is a mobility problem--look at the way you hesitate and then keep going down. You just need to go all the way down. What happens when you do that? Do you fall over? Or do your squats just look bad?

I've trained many, many people to do squats. Almost all of them think they can't go all the way down, that they aren't flexible enough. In all my years of training people I've never encountered a single instance where this was actually the case. If you aren't 60 or more years old, or over 350 lbs, mobility probably isn't going to actually prevent you from breaking parallel.

Of course, stretching will help--don't stop doing that. But you just need to go all the way down on your squats. You're keeping all tight in a weird way and clearly stopping above parallel on purpose. Post a video of what happens when you squat all the way down, and then maybe we can help you analyze.

For some reason a LOT of beginners try to set up these Catch 22 situations for themselves where they are supposedly just unable to do basic movements. Anyone should be able to squat down unless they are aged and/or disabled.

EDIT: This sentence doesn't make any sense: "I stop a bit above parallel because I can't shove my knees out any more due to poor ankle mobility."
I think you just need to point your toes out more. This will reduce your forward knee travel.

Youve been lucky with your trainees.
Its generally harder for tall people to get to a proper squat position simply because of leverages and limb length. Looking at op Id say he probably has some hamstring/hip tightness along with the form issues.

Simple mobility tests you can do. Sit on the floor knees locked and see if you can sit with your back dead straight.
Or legs up against a wall you should be able to touch the wall with your butt and back should stay on the floor comfortably.
Also you should be able to grab your toes with knees locked standing up.

[breathinglife]

Youve been lucky with your trainees.
Its generally harder for tall people to get to a proper squat position simply because of leverages and limb length. Looking at op Id say he probably has some hamstring/hip tightness along with the form issues.

Simple mobility tests you can do. Sit on the floor knees locked and see if you can sit with your back dead straight.
Or legs up against a wall you should be able to touch the wall with your butt and back should stay on the floor comfortably.
Also you should be able to grab your toes with knees locked standing up.

I don't believe I've been lucky. The OP is only 5'11"--average height. Almost everyone I'm training at the moment is that tall or taller.

Like I said, he should keep doing mobility work, but I seriously doubt he is incapable of squatting to depth. I stretch 10 minutes every day without exception. I absolutely agree, however, that one should be able to touch the floor with one's knees locked and hold it for at least a full minute without problem. If you can't do this, you're probably going to have some butt wink and other form issues on squat.

[scarboro]

Point your feet out 15-30degrees, go a bit wider than shoulderwidth. Knees over toes and shove them straight forward(do not think about shoving out). Disregard what happens next and just go as low as possible and post a video. It doesn't matter if your lower back rounds or thoracic or you just bend over. You have to first get in that position then we can see the problems. Use a bit more weight as well maybe 185 and it should help you force your ankles further.

For most people i've taught, all it takes is just practicing isometrically holding the bottom position with some weight and rolling whatever is tightest.

Just looking at your video though my guess would be you need a bit more heel elevation because you have long femurs and really bad natural ankle mobility. The 0.75" effective heel height on the adipowers is a bit low for you, so maybe try some insoles getting it closer to 1".

[VaderCorp]

You're being 'lazy' with your lower back at the bottom. Keep it arched as much as possible (hyperextended) and go as low as you can until your hamstrings suddenly get too tight to continue.

That's your starting point. Don't go lower until your hamstrings stretch to accomodate more depth within the parameter of maintaining the hyperextended lower back.

Speed the process by stretching hamstrings between all sets (even non-squat lifts). Stretch each leg at a time, not both at once. It prevents the lower back rounding during the stretch and defeating the point.

[Yashkovich]

this has been helping me quite a bit with being able to force my knees out more

[pyaarawala]

Thanks for all the advice guys. I widened my stance a bit and went a bit deeper. I did the stretches too of the video w/ Kelly. Here's my squat today from 2 angles, w/ more weight and a belt.



There's still some rounding even though it doesn't look too bad. I'm just afraid what'll happen when the weight gets heavier. For the most part I felt like I was in control here. I let my knees travel a bit more forward this time and squeezed the hip flexors (brought elbows down as I descend the way Candito teaches). I felt my hamstrings stretch as I reach the bottom position and used that bounce to go back up.

[VaderCorp]

Thanks for all the advice guys. I widened my stance a bit and went a bit deeper. I did the stretches too of the video w/ Kelly. Here's my squat today from 2 angles, w/ more weight and a belt.



There's still some rounding even though it doesn't look too bad. I'm just afraid what'll happen when the weight gets heavier. For the most part I felt like I was in control here. I let my knees travel a bit more forward this time and squeezed the hip flexors (brought elbows down as I descend the way Candito teaches). I felt my hamstrings stretch as I reach the bottom position and used that bounce to go back up.

Excellent squat. Go ahead and run a decent program now your form is solid.

When weights get heavier be careful not to let that little quick dip thing at the bottom get any more pronounced.

Try paused squats on light weights and warmup. Don't use stretch reflex until using max weights. Pause squat like a box squat... with no box! Don't rest on hammies. Pause under full muscular contraction like you are hovering over a toilet seat. Holding 160kg in the hole under full control for 2 seconds then powering up is an empowering feeling!

[Aeorius]

Excellent squat. Go ahead and run a decent program now your form is solid.

When weights get heavier be careful not to let that little quick dip thing at the bottom get any more pronounced.

Try paused squats on light weights and warmup. Don't use stretch reflex until using max weights. Pause squat like a box squat... with no box! Don't rest on hammies. Pause under full muscular contraction like you are hovering over a toilet seat. Holding 160kg in the hole under full control for 2 seconds then powering up is an empowering feeling!

Well if you look at it closely you can see his whole torso goes round at the bottom. See the way the bar travels at the bottom looks like he loses all tightness in the hole.
Id advise against using a belt at this weight since your core should be strong enough to handle it. Just my personal preference though.

[308smk]

this has been helping me quite a bit with being able to force my knees out more

This right here. Also, get down into the hole and do something like this to open up the hips.



Also, you talk about your hamstrings stretching in the hole. That is good. Never release that tension in order to get depth. Keep everything tight, cut some squats high if you have to. When the weight gets heavy, it will make you hit depth. As you come out of the hole, drive your elbows forward and under the bar.This will pop your chest up and keep the bar inline with your center of gravity in case you've started to keel over.

Also, I'm not sure if it was just the camera angle, but in the second half of the video, it looked like your feet were uneven. Make sure they're properly spaces and angled and even, otherwise your going to twist on the descent and **** your **** up.

Good work.

[WorldDomnit]

Don't squat so wide
/thread

[kaleida]

OP your low bar squats in the first post look so close to parallel that I bet you could get below parallel just by doing them faster. Personally I need that speed to push me below parallel when my hamstrings and glutes are contracted. (Note I have no trouble getting way below parallel if I relax my hamstrings and glutes, but keeping them contracted allows me to squat more weight, so that is what I do.)

Don't use stretch reflex until using max weights.

Is there a reason for this? My squats and deadlifts have both made good progress and I do fast squats with stretch reflex in training. Plus it's mentally easier for me if I use the same technique for max weight vs. training weight ... the technique starts to feel very instinctive and automatic.

[308smk]

OP your low bar squats in the first post look so close to parallel that I bet you could get below parallel just by doing them faster. Personally I need that speed to push me below parallel when my hamstrings and glutes are contracted. (Note I have no trouble getting way below parallel if I relax my hamstrings and glutes, but keeping them contracted allows me to squat more weight, so that is what I do.)



Is there a reason for this? My squats and deadlifts have both made good progress and I do fast squats with stretch reflex in training. Plus it's mentally easier for me if I use the same technique for max weight vs. training weight ... the technique starts to feel very instinctive and automatic.

Don't sacrifice tension for depth with a low bar squat. That's how you get injured, ask me how I know. The stretch reflex is fine, keep training with it. But don't ever slack off your hamstrings and round over in order to get way below depth. You should be doing highbar squats if you want to train the full range of motion. The lowbar squat is meant to move the most weight, not get as deep as possible.

[kaleida]

Don't sacrifice tension for depth with a low bar squat. That's how you get injured, ask me how I know. The stretch reflex is fine, keep training with it. But don't ever slack off your hamstrings and round over in order to get way below depth. You should be doing highbar squats if you want to train the full range of motion. The lowbar squat is meant to move the most weight, not get as deep as possible.

Sounds like I'm on the right track then...if my low bar squats don't look deep enough I try to descend faster or maybe tinker with my stance instead of relaxing my hamstrings and glutes. I didn't know the hamstring/glute contraction helped with injury prevention though - that's good to know
What type of injury did you get?

[308smk]

Sounds like I'm on the right track then...if my low bar squats don't look deep enough I try to descend faster or maybe tinker with my stance instead of relaxing my hamstrings and glutes. I didn't know the hamstring/glute contraction helped with injury prevention though - that's good to know
What type of injury did you get?

Its not so much injury prevention as the fact that you will get injured if you aren't tight with max weights in the hole. If you slack off your hamstrings and go ass to ground with a lowbar squat as I was(ipf lifter), you're going to have nothing to drive up with out of the hole other than the bounce, which will shoot your hips up, push the bar ahead of your center of gravity, which kills your intra abdominal pressure, and basically forces you to good morning the weight up.

So then you're stuck grinding upwards and trying to get the bar back to where it needs to be, but its probably too far gone, and you miss or dump the bar. I've torn my left hip flexor, herniated l4/l5, and had numerous lat and rhomboid strains, and was only squatting 190 kgs or so.

Now that I'm maintaining tension and squatting properly, my lowbar squat has skyrocketed and I just do highbar squats to get my ATG fix. Oh and the injuries are gone and I'm fully healed.

[VaderCorp]

'Don't use stretch reflex until using max weights.'
Is there a reason for this? My squats and deadlifts have both made good progress and I do fast squats with stretch reflex in training. Plus it's mentally easier for me if I use the same technique for max weight vs. training weight ... the technique starts to feel very instinctive and automatic.

Yes, it was a bit ambiguous there! If read in full:
'Try paused squats on light weights and warmup. Don't use stretch reflex until using max weights.'

If i said:
' Try paused squats on light weights and warmup, i.e. don't use stretch reflex until using max weights' then it would be more clear.

However you make an interesting comment which I have a personal theory regarding...
You say: 'Plus it's mentally easier for me if I use the same technique for max weight vs. training weight ... the technique starts to feel very instinctive and automatic.'

While I agree with you, my theory is as follows: When you are competing and using close to or your actual 1RM the lift will be considerably slower. You will spend a longer time in the hole than on light weights. Thus the stretch reflex will dissipate to a greater degree because you are in the hole longer. Thus the actual muscular contribution of the glutes is required to be higher. I believe that pause squats can train for that purpose.

Just a musing of mine.

I don't powerlift anymore and I got my relatively decent squat from training as you say, so i wouldn't look into it too much. Pause squats add a nice change of workout though, to keep things fresh.

[308smk]

High bar pause squats or paused front squats are literally one of the best ways to build your squat. 7 sets of 3-5 around 65-70% of your HB max to start.

[kaleida]

Yes, it was a bit ambiguous there! If read in full:
'Try paused squats on light weights and warmup. Don't use stretch reflex until using max weights.'

If i said:
' Try paused squats on light weights and warmup, i.e. don't use stretch reflex until using max weights' then it would be more clear.

However you make an interesting comment which I have a personal theory regarding...
You say: 'Plus it's mentally easier for me if I use the same technique for max weight vs. training weight ... the technique starts to feel very instinctive and automatic.'

While I agree with you, my theory is as follows: When you are competing and using close to or your actual 1RM the lift will be considerably slower. You will spend a longer time in the hole than on light weights. Thus the stretch reflex will dissipate to a greater degree because you are in the hole longer. Thus the actual muscular contribution of the glutes is required to be higher. I believe that pause squats can train for that purpose.

Just a musing of mine.

I don't powerlift anymore and I got my relatively decent squat from training as you say, so i wouldn't look into it too much. Pause squats add a nice change of workout though, to keep things fresh.

Ohh...that makes more sense... I thought you were saying only use stretch reflex for 1RMs...sounds like you meant working sets. We're on the same page then, I need to warm up first too before I start adding speed.

[pyaarawala]

Excellent squat. Go ahead and run a decent program now your form is solid.

When weights get heavier be careful not to let that little quick dip thing at the bottom get any more pronounced.

Try paused squats on light weights and warmup. Don't use stretch reflex until using max weights. Pause squat like a box squat... with no box! Don't rest on hammies. Pause under full muscular contraction like you are hovering over a toilet seat. Holding 160kg in the hole under full control for 2 seconds then powering up is an empowering feeling!

That little dip is what worries me. I'm afraid it'll cause back pain when I go heavier.

My squat just refuses to get fixed no matter what I try that it's really frustrating. I'm doing everything that I've been told. Thoracic and lumbar spine in full extension at the top, trying to hold it hard. Squeezing hip flexors and abs are tight, sitting back and knees out. But at that one point right above parallel, I can't keep that tightness and thoracic spine and lumbar spine go into flexion.

[kaleida]

That little dip is what worries me. I'm afraid it'll cause back pain when I go heavier.

My squat just refuses to get fixed no matter what I try that it's really frustrating. I'm doing everything that I've been told. Thoracic and lumbar spine in full extension at the top, trying to hold it hard. Squeezing hip flexors and abs are tight, sitting back and knees out. But at that one point right above parallel, I can't keep that tightness and thoracic spine and lumbar spine go into flexion.

I am curious to hear what the experts say because I think I have the same amount of buttwink as you (a back that goes to flat at the bottom...not rounded...just flat). I haven't run into any back issues yet but who knows. So far the only way I know of to keep my back arched all the way down is to squat realllly wide to get my legs out of the way of my torso ...but I don't feel like committing to that stance, it is my weakest stance.

[Laidbackzack]

One cue that really helped me in getting depth without buttwink is initiating the squat by abducting your hips. In other words, open your hips and push your knees out in order to create a whole to sink in to. Correct me if I'm wrong or feel free to chime in

[VaderCorp]

That little dip is what worries me. I'm afraid it'll cause back pain when I go heavier.

My squat just refuses to get fixed no matter what I try that it's really frustrating. I'm doing everything that I've been told. Thoracic and lumbar spine in full extension at the top, trying to hold it hard. Squeezing hip flexors and abs are tight, sitting back and knees out. But at that one point right above parallel, I can't keep that tightness and thoracic spine and lumbar spine go into flexion.

Method #1: practice sitting even further back in your squats. As though you are sitting down onto a box. It's unnerving at first balance-wise. You can try it on a real box at first. High bar makes it easier because it move centre of mass forward.

Method #2: Try using olympic lifting shoes. Elevates the heels and reduces the length the hamstring is getting stretched

Method #3: Stretch hamstrings more and more and more. One leg at a time so that your stretches are never stretching the lower back instead of the hamstrings.

Method #4: If your gut is hitting your legs then widen your stance. Even I can't squat full depth un-rounded if I squat with my feet together (this is an extreme example obviously)

If you have maximum flexibility and it is definitely not an issue then you must sit back instead of squat down. Break at the hips>> ass starts going backwards>>>backwards some more>>>>backwards some more>>>hamstrings get tight>>>break at the knees>>>ass keeps going back>>>bending more at the knees>>> top of thighs become parallel to floor and BAM: UPWARDS.

Hard to describe on the internet.