Heres how to disprove evolution....

[JAGERBOY]

Evolution has ALOT of corroborative and empirical evidence. Its funny how creationists can so easily dismiss it as a theory. In order to do so, they will need to disprove several different factors. So if you really think you can, please disprove or refute all of these things, and explain away certain phenomenon. Other proponents of evolution are free to add more.

1. Radiometric dating
2. Mutations
3. Change in frequency of Alleles
4. Gene flow
5. Genetic drift
6. The "bottleneck effect"
7. The "founder effect"
8. Sexual selection
9. Natural selection
10. Pharyngeal slits in mammals (vestigial organs in general)
11. Morphology
12. Fossil records
13. DNA sequencing
14. Addition/deletion of new genetic information (yes I said NEW)

[Amu]

I must mention that evolution (even human evolution) is not necessarily in conflict with Islam, as Trance has explained numerous times

At first, I thought there was a conflict, but after examining Trance's evidence, I've changed my position to neutral

[Amu]

I think it is and SK agrees with me so there.

LOL I think it's obvious why you agree with SK on this one

[JAGERBOY]

LOL I think it's obvious why you agree with SK on this one

Dang you caught the post, didn't want this thread to get off on a tangent. I'll just leave it at that.

[Amu]

Dang you caught the post, didn't want this thread to get off on a tangent. I'll just leave it at that.

I thought about deleting it but I like harassing you

[Replica]

Evolution has ALOT of corroborative and empirical evidence. Its funny how creationists can so easily dismiss it as a theory. In order to do so, they will need to disprove several different factors. So if you really think you can, please disprove or refute all of these things, and explain away certain phenomenon. Other proponents of evolution are free to add more.

1. Radiometric dating
2. Mutations
3. Change in frequency of Alleles
4. Gene flow
5. Genetic drift
6. The "bottleneck effect"
7. The "founder effect"
8. Sexual selection
9. Natural selection
10. Pharyngeal slits in mammals (vestigial organs in general)
11. Morphology
12. Fossil records
13. DNA sequencing
14. Addition/deletion of new genetic information (yes I said NEW)

www.zeitgeistmovie.com

[JAGERBOY]

www.zeitgeistmovie.com

Been there done that.

[Replica]

Been there done that.

Why is it difficult for you to accept evolution?

[Mr.Anonymous]

Evolution has ALOT of corroborative and empirical evidence. Its funny how creationists can so easily dismiss it as a theory. In order to do so, they will need to disprove several different factors. So if you really think you can, please disprove or refute all of these things, and explain away certain phenomenon. Other proponents of evolution are free to add more.

1. Radiometric dating
2. Mutations
3. Change in frequency of Alleles
4. Gene flow
5. Genetic drift
6. The "bottleneck effect"
7. The "founder effect"
8. Sexual selection
9. Natural selection
10. Pharyngeal slits in mammals (vestigial organs in general)
11. Morphology
12. Fossil records
13. DNA sequencing
14. Addition/deletion of new genetic information (yes I said NEW)

1. Satan did it
2. Satan did it
3. Satan did it
4. Satan did it
5. Satan did it
6. Satan did it
7. Satan did it
8. Satan did it
9. Satan did it
10. Holy oversight
11. Satan did it
12. Satan playing tricks again
13. Work of Satan's minions (so-called Scientists)
14. God gave us the free will to change our DNA

[JAGERBOY]

Why is it difficult for you to accept evolution?

WTF are you talking about?

[Dig]

1. Satan did it
2. Satan did it
3. Satan did it
4. Satan did it
5. Satan did it
6. Satan did it
7. Satan did it
8. Satan did it
9. Satan did it
10. Holy oversight
11. Satan did it
12. Satan playing tricks again
13. Work of Satan's minions (so-called Scientists)
14. God gave us the free will to change our DNA

lol

[JAGERBOY]

14. God gave us the free will to change our DNA

...

[TunaMan5]

I must mention that evolution (even human evolution) is not necessarily in conflict with Islam, as Trance has explained numerous times

At first, I thought there was a conflict, but after examining Trance's evidence, I've changed my position to neutral

LOL how is it NOT???

u believe that God created everything and evolution says everything started with microorganisms

wtf???

[JAGERBOY]

No takers? Thats odd, with all the anti evolution pros popping up on this site recently I though this would be a piece of cake. They must be searching their bookmarked apologetic/creationism websites to paste a rebuttal (with no citation of course).

[user5145]

Proof of evolution does not necessary disprove creation. Not by any means.

[JAGERBOY]

Proof of evolution does not necessary disprove creation. Not by any means.

This isn't about disproving god, its about disproving evolution.

[( S I C )]

Proof of evolution does not necessary disprove creation. Not by any means.

Genesis 2:7 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright ? 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.


7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

------------

How can evolution co-exist based on this passage taken from the NKJV?

[user5145]

Ah, so you are asking creationists to disprove those factors in evolution.

Then, I just meant to say that it is possible to be a creationist and believe in evolution, as in believing that a superior being created the initial conditions in which everything could exist.

[TranceNRG]

LOL how is it NOT???

u believe that God created everything and evolution says everything started with microorganisms

wtf???

Evolution = means
Creation = end

means --> end

[JAGERBOY]

Ah, so you are asking creationists to disprove those factors in evolution.

Then, I just meant to say that it is possible to be a creationist and believe in evolution, as in believing that a superior being created the initial conditions in which everything could exist.

Absolutely. However, all evidence, or lack there of, does not point to that being the case at this point.

[user5145]

Genesis 2:7 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright ? 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.


7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

------------

How can evolution co-exist based on this passage taken from the NKJV?

Absolutely. However, all evidence, or lack there of, does not point to that being the case at this point.

I agree, but in the same sense that all evidence, or lack thereof, does not point to that being the case, the fact that there is no evidence does not point to that NOT being the case.

I found this, which I thought was interesting. I apologize if the paste is hard to read, but it is interesting.


If you deny the existence of a Creator, scientific studies demonstrate that you must believe each of the following things about the origin of life:
Scientific Facts

Solution
Homochirality somehow arose in the sugars and amino acids of prebiotic soups, although there is no mechanism by which this can occur (1) and is, in fact, prohibited by the second law of thermodynamics (law of entropy). (2) reject the second law of thermodynamics
In the absence of enzymes, there is no chemical reaction that produces the sugar ribose (1), the "backbone" of RNA and DNA. "science of the gaps"
Chemical reactions in prebiotic soups produce other sugars that prevent RNA and DNA replication (1). discard chemistry data

"science of the gaps"
Pyrimidine nucleosides (cytosine and uracil) do not form under prebiotic conditions and only purine (adenine and guanine) nucleosides are found in carbonaceous meteorites (1) (i.e., pyrimidine nucleosides don't form in outer space either). discard chemistry data

"science of the gaps"
Even if a method for formation of pyrimidine nucleosides could be found, the combination of nucleosides with phosphate under prebiotic conditions produces not only nucleotides, but other products which interfere with RNA polymerization and replication (1). discard chemistry data

"science of the gaps"
Purine and pyrimidine nucleotides (nucleosides combined with phosphate groups) do not form under prebiotic conditions (3). discard chemistry data

"science of the gaps"
Neither RNA nor DNA can be synthesized in the absence of enzymes. In theory, an RNA replicase could exist and code for its own replication. The first synthesized RNA replicase was four times longer than any RNA that could form spontaneously (4). In addition, it was able to replicate only 16 based pairs at most, so it couldn't even replicate itself (5). "science of the gaps"
Enzymes cannot be synthesized in the absence of RNA and ribosomes. "science of the gaps"
Nucleosides and amino acids cannot form in the presence of oxygen, which is now known to have been present on the earth for at least four billion years (6), although life arose at least ~3.5 billion years ago (7). discard geological data

discard chemistry data
Adenine synthesis requires unreasonable HCN concentrations. Adenine deaminates with a half-life of 80 years (at 37?C, pH 7). Therefore, adenine would never accumulate in any kind of "prebiotic soup." The adenine-uracil interaction is weak and nonspecific, and, therefore, would never be expected to function in any specific recognition scheme under the chaotic conditions of a "prebiotic soup." (8) discard chemistry data
Cytosine has never been found in any meteorites nor is it produced in electric spark discharge experiments using simulated "early earth atmosphere." All possible intermediates suffer severe problems (9). Cytosine deaminates with an estimated half-life of 340 years, so would not be expected to accumulate over time. Ultraviolet light on the early earth would quickly convert cytosine to its photohydrate and cyclobutane photodimers (which rapidly deaminate) (10). discard geological data

discard chemistry data
Mixture of amino acids the Murchison meteorite show that there are many classes of prebiotic substances that would disrupt the necessary structural regularity of any RNA-like replicator (11). Metabolic replicators suffer from a lack of an ability to evolve, since they do not mutate (12). discard chemistry data
The most common abiogenesis theories claim that life arose at hydrothermal vents in the ocean. However, recent studies show that polymerization of the molecules necessary for cell membrane assembly cannot occur in salt water (13). Other studies show that the early oceans were at least twice as salty as they are now (14) Life arose in freshwater ponds (even though the earth had very little land mass), using some unknown mechanism.

Comparison of the dates of meteor impacts on the moon, Mercury, and Mars indicate that at least 30 catastrophic meteor impacts must have occurred on the earth from 3.8 to 3.5 billion years ago (15). These impacts were of such large size that the energy released would have vaporized the entirety of the earth's oceans (16), destroying all life.
Life spontaneously arose by chance at least 30 separate times, each within a period of ~10 million years
Complex bacterial life (oxygenic photosynthesis) had appeared by 3.7 billion years ago (17), leaving virtually no time for prebiotics to have evolved into the first life forms. discard evidence

[JAGERBOY]

I agree, but in the same sense that all evidence, or lack thereof, does not point to that being the case, the fact that there is no evidence does not point to that NOT being the case.

I found this, which I thought was interesting. I apologize if the paste is hard to read, but it is interesting.


If you deny the existence of a Creator, scientific studies demonstrate that you must believe each of the following things about the origin of life:
Scientific Facts

Solution
Homochirality somehow arose in the sugars and amino acids of prebiotic soups, although there is no mechanism by which this can occur (1) and is, in fact, prohibited by the second law of thermodynamics (law of entropy). (2) reject the second law of thermodynamics
In the absence of enzymes, there is no chemical reaction that produces the sugar ribose (1), the "backbone" of RNA and DNA. "science of the gaps"
Chemical reactions in prebiotic soups produce other sugars that prevent RNA and DNA replication (1). discard chemistry data

"science of the gaps"
Pyrimidine nucleosides (cytosine and uracil) do not form under prebiotic conditions and only purine (adenine and guanine) nucleosides are found in carbonaceous meteorites (1) (i.e., pyrimidine nucleosides don't form in outer space either). discard chemistry data

"science of the gaps"
Even if a method for formation of pyrimidine nucleosides could be found, the combination of nucleosides with phosphate under prebiotic conditions produces not only nucleotides, but other products which interfere with RNA polymerization and replication (1). discard chemistry data

"science of the gaps"
Purine and pyrimidine nucleotides (nucleosides combined with phosphate groups) do not form under prebiotic conditions (3). discard chemistry data

"science of the gaps"
Neither RNA nor DNA can be synthesized in the absence of enzymes. In theory, an RNA replicase could exist and code for its own replication. The first synthesized RNA replicase was four times longer than any RNA that could form spontaneously (4). In addition, it was able to replicate only 16 based pairs at most, so it couldn't even replicate itself (5). "science of the gaps"
Enzymes cannot be synthesized in the absence of RNA and ribosomes. "science of the gaps"
Nucleosides and amino acids cannot form in the presence of oxygen, which is now known to have been present on the earth for at least four billion years (6), although life arose at least ~3.5 billion years ago (7). discard geological data

discard chemistry data
Adenine synthesis requires unreasonable HCN concentrations. Adenine deaminates with a half-life of 80 years (at 37?C, pH 7). Therefore, adenine would never accumulate in any kind of "prebiotic soup." The adenine-uracil interaction is weak and nonspecific, and, therefore, would never be expected to function in any specific recognition scheme under the chaotic conditions of a "prebiotic soup." (8) discard chemistry data
Cytosine has never been found in any meteorites nor is it produced in electric spark discharge experiments using simulated "early earth atmosphere." All possible intermediates suffer severe problems (9). Cytosine deaminates with an estimated half-life of 340 years, so would not be expected to accumulate over time. Ultraviolet light on the early earth would quickly convert cytosine to its photohydrate and cyclobutane photodimers (which rapidly deaminate) (10). discard geological data

discard chemistry data
Mixture of amino acids the Murchison meteorite show that there are many classes of prebiotic substances that would disrupt the necessary structural regularity of any RNA-like replicator (11). Metabolic replicators suffer from a lack of an ability to evolve, since they do not mutate (12). discard chemistry data
The most common abiogenesis theories claim that life arose at hydrothermal vents in the ocean. However, recent studies show that polymerization of the molecules necessary for cell membrane assembly cannot occur in salt water (13). Other studies show that the early oceans were at least twice as salty as they are now (14) Life arose in freshwater ponds (even though the earth had very little land mass), using some unknown mechanism.

Comparison of the dates of meteor impacts on the moon, Mercury, and Mars indicate that at least 30 catastrophic meteor impacts must have occurred on the earth from 3.8 to 3.5 billion years ago (15). These impacts were of such large size that the energy released would have vaporized the entirety of the earth's oceans (16), destroying all life.
Life spontaneously arose by chance at least 30 separate times, each within a period of ~10 million years
Complex bacterial life (oxygenic photosynthesis) had appeared by 3.7 billion years ago (17), leaving virtually no time for prebiotics to have evolved into the first life forms. discard evidence

Well again, this thread is not about disproving a god, nor abiogenesis. Alot of that stuff is data that I can not really look into or disprove at the moment because I don't have the tools nor the knowledge. So posting all that stuff is not really relevant to this thread.

[AntiGlobalist]

and is, in fact, prohibited by the second law of thermodynamics (law of entropy). (2) reject the second law of thermodynamics

And that's where I stopped reading.

[siamesedream]

I agree, but in the same sense that all evidence, or lack thereof, does not point to that being the case, the fact that there is no evidence does not point to that NOT being the case.

I found this, which I thought was interesting. I apologize if the paste is hard to read, but it is interesting.


If you deny the existence of a Creator, scientific studies demonstrate that you must believe each of the following things about the origin of life:
Scientific Facts

Solution
Homochirality somehow arose in the sugars and amino acids of prebiotic soups, although there is no mechanism by which this can occur (1) and is, in fact, prohibited by the second law of thermodynamics (law of entropy). (2) reject the second law of thermodynamics
In the absence of enzymes, there is no chemical reaction that produces the sugar ribose (1), the "backbone" of RNA and DNA. "science of the gaps"
Chemical reactions in prebiotic soups produce other sugars that prevent RNA and DNA replication (1). discard chemistry data

"science of the gaps"
Pyrimidine nucleosides (cytosine and uracil) do not form under prebiotic conditions and only purine (adenine and guanine) nucleosides are found in carbonaceous meteorites (1) (i.e., pyrimidine nucleosides don't form in outer space either). discard chemistry data

"science of the gaps"
Even if a method for formation of pyrimidine nucleosides could be found, the combination of nucleosides with phosphate under prebiotic conditions produces not only nucleotides, but other products which interfere with RNA polymerization and replication (1). discard chemistry data

"science of the gaps"
Purine and pyrimidine nucleotides (nucleosides combined with phosphate groups) do not form under prebiotic conditions (3). discard chemistry data

"science of the gaps"
Neither RNA nor DNA can be synthesized in the absence of enzymes. In theory, an RNA replicase could exist and code for its own replication. The first synthesized RNA replicase was four times longer than any RNA that could form spontaneously (4). In addition, it was able to replicate only 16 based pairs at most, so it couldn't even replicate itself (5). "science of the gaps"
Enzymes cannot be synthesized in the absence of RNA and ribosomes. "science of the gaps"
Nucleosides and amino acids cannot form in the presence of oxygen, which is now known to have been present on the earth for at least four billion years (6), although life arose at least ~3.5 billion years ago (7). discard geological data

discard chemistry data
Adenine synthesis requires unreasonable HCN concentrations. Adenine deaminates with a half-life of 80 years (at 37?C, pH 7). Therefore, adenine would never accumulate in any kind of "prebiotic soup." The adenine-uracil interaction is weak and nonspecific, and, therefore, would never be expected to function in any specific recognition scheme under the chaotic conditions of a "prebiotic soup." (8) discard chemistry data
Cytosine has never been found in any meteorites nor is it produced in electric spark discharge experiments using simulated "early earth atmosphere." All possible intermediates suffer severe problems (9). Cytosine deaminates with an estimated half-life of 340 years, so would not be expected to accumulate over time. Ultraviolet light on the early earth would quickly convert cytosine to its photohydrate and cyclobutane photodimers (which rapidly deaminate) (10). discard geological data

discard chemistry data
Mixture of amino acids the Murchison meteorite show that there are many classes of prebiotic substances that would disrupt the necessary structural regularity of any RNA-like replicator (11). Metabolic replicators suffer from a lack of an ability to evolve, since they do not mutate (12). discard chemistry data
The most common abiogenesis theories claim that life arose at hydrothermal vents in the ocean. However, recent studies show that polymerization of the molecules necessary for cell membrane assembly cannot occur in salt water (13). Other studies show that the early oceans were at least twice as salty as they are now (14) Life arose in freshwater ponds (even though the earth had very little land mass), using some unknown mechanism.

Comparison of the dates of meteor impacts on the moon, Mercury, and Mars indicate that at least 30 catastrophic meteor impacts must have occurred on the earth from 3.8 to 3.5 billion years ago (15). These impacts were of such large size that the energy released would have vaporized the entirety of the earth's oceans (16), destroying all life.
Life spontaneously arose by chance at least 30 separate times, each within a period of ~10 million years
Complex bacterial life (oxygenic photosynthesis) had appeared by 3.7 billion years ago (17), leaving virtually no time for prebiotics to have evolved into the first life forms. discard evidence

That is very interesting.

Thanks for posting that. I'm going to research that stuff later to determine the validity of those arguments, but, for now, back to my homework. I found the bit about the enzymes most interesting, and am going to try to see if there's any data on inorganic catalysts displaying the ability to act as an enzyme would on organic building blocks.

[QuicksandATL]

I agree, but in the same sense that all evidence, or lack thereof, does not point to that being the case, the fact that there is no evidence does not point to that NOT being the case.

I found this, which I thought was interesting. I apologize if the paste is hard to read, but it is interesting.


If you deny the existence of a Creator, scientific studies demonstrate that you must believe each of the following things about the origin of life:
Scientific Facts

Solution
Homochirality somehow arose in the sugars and amino acids of prebiotic soups, although there is no mechanism by which this can occur (1) and is, in fact, prohibited by the second law of thermodynamics (law of entropy). (2) reject the second law of thermodynamics
In the absence of enzymes, there is no chemical reaction that produces the sugar ribose (1), the "backbone" of RNA and DNA. "science of the gaps"
Chemical reactions in prebiotic soups produce other sugars that prevent RNA and DNA replication (1). discard chemistry data

"science of the gaps"
Pyrimidine nucleosides (cytosine and uracil) do not form under prebiotic conditions and only purine (adenine and guanine) nucleosides are found in carbonaceous meteorites (1) (i.e., pyrimidine nucleosides don't form in outer space either). discard chemistry data

"science of the gaps"
Even if a method for formation of pyrimidine nucleosides could be found, the combination of nucleosides with phosphate under prebiotic conditions produces not only nucleotides, but other products which interfere with RNA polymerization and replication (1). discard chemistry data

"science of the gaps"
Purine and pyrimidine nucleotides (nucleosides combined with phosphate groups) do not form under prebiotic conditions (3). discard chemistry data

"science of the gaps"
Neither RNA nor DNA can be synthesized in the absence of enzymes. In theory, an RNA replicase could exist and code for its own replication. The first synthesized RNA replicase was four times longer than any RNA that could form spontaneously (4). In addition, it was able to replicate only 16 based pairs at most, so it couldn't even replicate itself (5). "science of the gaps"
Enzymes cannot be synthesized in the absence of RNA and ribosomes. "science of the gaps"
Nucleosides and amino acids cannot form in the presence of oxygen, which is now known to have been present on the earth for at least four billion years (6), although life arose at least ~3.5 billion years ago (7). discard geological data

discard chemistry data
Adenine synthesis requires unreasonable HCN concentrations. Adenine deaminates with a half-life of 80 years (at 37?C, pH 7). Therefore, adenine would never accumulate in any kind of "prebiotic soup." The adenine-uracil interaction is weak and nonspecific, and, therefore, would never be expected to function in any specific recognition scheme under the chaotic conditions of a "prebiotic soup." (8) discard chemistry data
Cytosine has never been found in any meteorites nor is it produced in electric spark discharge experiments using simulated "early earth atmosphere." All possible intermediates suffer severe problems (9). Cytosine deaminates with an estimated half-life of 340 years, so would not be expected to accumulate over time. Ultraviolet light on the early earth would quickly convert cytosine to its photohydrate and cyclobutane photodimers (which rapidly deaminate) (10). discard geological data

discard chemistry data
Mixture of amino acids the Murchison meteorite show that there are many classes of prebiotic substances that would disrupt the necessary structural regularity of any RNA-like replicator (11). Metabolic replicators suffer from a lack of an ability to evolve, since they do not mutate (12). discard chemistry data
The most common abiogenesis theories claim that life arose at hydrothermal vents in the ocean. However, recent studies show that polymerization of the molecules necessary for cell membrane assembly cannot occur in salt water (13). Other studies show that the early oceans were at least twice as salty as they are now (14) Life arose in freshwater ponds (even though the earth had very little land mass), using some unknown mechanism.

Comparison of the dates of meteor impacts on the moon, Mercury, and Mars indicate that at least 30 catastrophic meteor impacts must have occurred on the earth from 3.8 to 3.5 billion years ago (15). These impacts were of such large size that the energy released would have vaporized the entirety of the earth's oceans (16), destroying all life.
Life spontaneously arose by chance at least 30 separate times, each within a period of ~10 million years
Complex bacterial life (oxygenic photosynthesis) had appeared by 3.7 billion years ago (17), leaving virtually no time for prebiotics to have evolved into the first life forms. discard evidence

/thread

[user5145]

Well again, this thread is not about disproving a god, nor abiogenesis. Alot of that stuff is data that I can not really look into or disprove at the moment because I don't have the tools nor the knowledge. So posting all that stuff is not really relevant to this thread.

I know man, I just figured there would be some people who would be interested in it. I know I was.

That is very interesting.

Thanks for posting that. I'm going to research that stuff later to determine the validity of those arguments, but, for now, back to my homework. I found the bit about the enzymes most interesting, and am going to try to see if there's any data on inorganic catalysts displaying the ability to act as an enzyme would on organic building blocks.

Yeah man, report back with your findings. I really don't know how accurate the claims are, but I thought they were interesting nonetheless.

[user8765487]

Actually, a lot of those are incorrect. No '/thread'.

I'll see if I can shore up some time to post a rebuttal later.

[JAGERBOY]

/thread

Well, the 2nd law of thermodynamics one I'm almost positive is wrong. But for two, this has to do with EVOLUTION not the origin of the first life. Once again you show your ignorance when it comes to evolution.

So how bout stop riding on other peoples coattails and refuting some of the points I made. Just one.

[striker543]

Comparison of the dates of meteor impacts on the moon, Mercury, and Mars indicate that at least 30 catastrophic meteor impacts must have occurred on the earth from 3.8 to 3.5 billion years ago (15). These impacts were of such large size that the energy released would have vaporized the entirety of the earth's oceans (16), destroying all life.
Life spontaneously arose by chance at least 30 separate times, each within a period of ~10 million years
Complex bacterial life (oxygenic photosynthesis) had appeared by 3.7 billion years ago (17), leaving virtually no time for prebiotics to have evolved into the first life forms. discard evidence

yes I'd like to this point answered.

I don't see how it can though, unless you somehow deny meteors have impacted the earth.

so yeah I guess scientists pick and choose what science they believe as well.

[JAGERBOY]

yes I'd like to this point answered.

I don't see how it can though, unless you somehow deny meteors have impacted the earth.

so yeah I guess scientists pick and choose what science they believe as well.

These claims have not even been checked out. He didn't even post where he got it from. Hold off on passing final judgement until you get more evidence. One copy and paste post from a creationist website isn't enough.