Bulking on Keto....GH and low Levels of Insulin

**Original Poster** · 12-10-2002, 12:30 PM

Let me premise this by saying I am a KETO JEDI but I have never used Keto to bulk. I am considering it in the future, but happened to run into some rather troubling info related to Keto and Bulking.

High GH levels along with high insulin levels will raise IGF-1 levels.
IGF-1 levels are shown to have anabolic effects on almost all tissues in the body.
When one is in a carb depleted state, insulin levels will be considerably lower and stable as apposed to a tradition carb based diet. With this absence of carbohydrates and thus lower (severly lower except PW) insulin levels, the effect of elevated levels IGF-1 will be much less effective.

When you are bulking, you require tissue synthesis for proper muscle growth and recovery it would be preferable to have higher levels of IGF-1 as well as increased and sustained basal levels of insuline which I would hypothesise may not be suffient on a ketonic diet.

Any and all comments are encouraged.......

This is not a thread to KETO bash but to discuss the specifics of the issue.

PEACE

**IPR** · 12-10-2002, 04:30 PM

I think the first question is "how do you bulk in a keto way?"

I started a thread a week ago, but so few people are doing a keto bulk that there was little feedback (except some good stuff from Anxed who is getting results).

From what you've decribed, this makes sense on a normal Atkins style keto with no refeeds or carb-ups. It also seems to assume the level of keto is very strict, i.e. in a continuous state of ketosis.

For CKD how would this work?

So some questions I would like to throw into your thread Chi.

1. To bulk on keto, should we bring carb intake up to maintenance level between carb-ups? Or stay in a ketosis state?

2. Rather than a single carb-up (24-36hrs) is it better to do a shorter carb-up, say 12-24hrs, with a mid-week refeed?

3. I presume cals are increased to a level similar to any other bulking diet?

IMHO I am planning to stay on keto for bulking due to the general health benefits I gain from this type of diet. The periods of refeeding/carbing-up are when I grow, and the rest of the time I maintain a normal keto diet but at maintenance level carbs.

**scotty2** · 12-10-2002, 04:46 PM

Fitnessman broached this subject awhile back. From what I understood, there was a whole lotta eating to be done. There is a diet out there called "massive eating" that is similar in theory. Only eat carbs within 6 hrs of training.

**Original Poster** · 12-10-2002, 04:53 PM

IPR, you are always welcome into any thread I start.

Let me take a stab at your questions.......

1. To bulk on keto, should we bring carb intake up to maintenance level between carb-ups? Or stay in a ketosis state?

I'd say noway otherwise you in all likelyhood you will be thrown out of ketosis. Slight increae I hink wuld be fine, but they may point that one could (should) have eaten more fiberous green veggies.

2. Rather than a single carb-up (24-36hrs) is it better to do a shorter carb-up, say 12-24hrs, with a mid-week refeed?
I like a shorter carbup with the occasional mid-week carbup actully. But am unsure if it really make a difference when bulkin with keto.

3. I presume cals are increased to a level similar to any other bulking diet?

I would say YES.

--------------------------------------

Now back to my original post........I know that there are a ton of other benefits to keto and will forever be a KETO JEDI, but I'm interested in the specifics on bulking, keto, insulin and GH and how they would all work (or not work so well) in producing sufficient amount of IGF-1.

I would find it hard to believe that a few carb-ups a week and just the postworkout drinks would produce enough insulin and keep it high enough, long enough to work with the GH our body will be releasing to cyclically make enough IGF-1.

I'm not trying to refute anyones results on bulking on keto.
I know YODA and others have bulked on it successfully.

I'm only trying to understand it's full effect on something like bulking and the state of being anabolic.

**IPR** · 12-10-2002, 07:50 PM

I have been trying to read a little more in order to better understand what you asked Chi as its a very interesting issue.

If I understand correctly, assuming no GH supplements, our pituitary gland produces HGH (converted by our liver into IGF-1) in short spurts during deep sleep and following exercise (for up to 2hrs). HGH has a very short life in our blood (a few minutes only), so coversion to IGF-1 occurs rapidly.

Our bodies produce more HGH when our insulins levels are low than when elevated. But for IGF-1 to effectively work we need a consitent level of insulin, but not too high. I couldn't find any reference that insulin is needed to produce IGF-1. However, for tissue repair and muscle rebuilding hence for IGF-1 to do its thing, insulin is required to transport glucose into cells which are screming for it. I would assume that insulin would rise natural in response to the cells needs (?), but a lack of blood suger/carbs would mean nothing to transport (except that stored as fat?).

This has left me a little confused. But it does seem as if Keto maybe a reasonable mix....but not the best?

To max HGH output we need low insulin or rather not much spiking during deep sleep and exercise, then consistent insulin (or should that read glucose) supply to max IGF-1 effects. But how much is needed to achieve the best results from IGF-1? Is the low level when in ketosis enough??

Is this correct? If so, the liquid carb post w/o shake work will shut down production of HGH but would provide the carb/glucose and the resulting insulin spike for muscle growth.

All this suggests keto is good for HGH production, but may be low in carb/glucose for optimum use of the HGH/IGF-1 produced.

Man..... this is interesting

**IPR** · 12-11-2002, 02:42 AM

Back again after more reading (clearly don't have enough to do today).

It seems that to get the best protoe-genesis we need to transport across the cells walls both the amino acids that use IGF-1 and those that use Insulin as the key. Not one or the other but both.

However, high levels of insulin prevent release of HGH, and so no IGF-1 (IGF-1 can survive for approx 20hrs)

On keto the weekday low carb improves our ability/sensitivity to release HGH and produce IGF-1, but we don't add mass in this state as insulin is low. Insulin needs to be spiked in this state to max amino acid take-up.

I can see how the post w/o shake achieves this. The carb-up obviously boosts insulin, and it maybe in this time (20hrs?) that with the keto high output of IGF-1 good muscle growth can be achieved.

With the above in mind, a mid-week refeed and increased cals seems to be a good bulking approach considering IGF-1 and Insulin.

(I could be completely wrong with this........so I await the knowledgeable responses)

**Original Poster** · 12-11-2002, 04:07 AM

Originally posted by IPR

All this suggests keto is good for HGH production, but may be low in carb/glucose for optimum use of the HGH/IGF-1 produced.

Man..... this is interesting

IPR, That's it in a nutshell.

**Original Poster** · 12-11-2002, 04:20 AM

IPR, this is fun. LOL
Now where the hell are the experts ?

There is no doubt in my mind that the postworkout shake and a mid week carbup would be beneficial when bulking with keto given the positive effects of the increased insulin levels on muscle growth and repair especially as related to IGF-1.

What I am merely suggesting is that keto may not be the optimal way to bulk, gain mass, and/or recover from injury.

To be truely anabolic, the body needs a certain amount of insulin, how much.....who knows.....I'd love to find a study on such a thing. To me it seems like a catch 22. You don't want to much blood glucose as to inhibit or minimize GH release, but you you must have enough present for the IGF-1 to be as effective as it can be.

Given this I would think that a more ballanced diet......say a 40/40/20 or a 40/30/30 diet may be a better approach to achieve this delicate ballance.

When it comes down to it what I am challenging here is ......"Is the PW shake and carbs-up enough".
Again I know keto bulking has worked for many, but is this really the best way to bulk ? I don't know.

Yoda...........heeeeeeeeelllllp

PEACE

**Anxed** · 12-11-2002, 05:33 AM

Originally posted by Chi_town

1. To bulk on keto, should we bring carb intake up to maintenance level between carb-ups? Or stay in a ketosis state?

I'd say noway otherwise you in all likelyhood you will be thrown out of ketosis. Slight increae I hink wuld be fine, but they may point that one could (should) have eaten more fiberous green veggies.

2. Rather than a single carb-up (24-36hrs) is it better to do a shorter carb-up, say 12-24hrs, with a mid-week refeed?
I like a shorter carbup with the occasional mid-week carbup actully. But am unsure if it really make a difference when bulkin with keto.

3. I presume cals are increased to a level similar to any other bulking diet?

I would say YES.

1. I stayed at normal carb level throughout the week, other than designated carb up meals.

2. Actually, This is sorta what I did... I would go about 12 hours (morning to eve) for my carb up, eating mostly oatmeal, sweet potatoes, bark, and twigs

I also threw in my mid week carbup... and in addition to this carb based meal, I also threw in (unbeknownst to Fitnessman, but knownst to me) another mid week carb meal, which I called, my carb "snack"... it was in addition to a keto meal, but it might have been a serving of oatmeal or something...

Throughout the whole bulking diet, I probably had a few days there where I went out of ketosis on accident, but my goal was to only be slightly in ketosis.. my theory on that was based on what Fitnessman said once... its better to be slightly in ketosis, because then you are getting enough carbs... or something like that... I cant remember exactly...

3. For my metabolism, 15xLBM works for bulking, but calories are increased the same as any other bulking diet.

**Anxed** · 12-11-2002, 05:38 AM

What I am merely suggesting is that keto may not be the optimal way to bulk, gain mass, and/or recover from injury.

You know Chi.. you may be right on that... my reason for using a keto bulk was a matter of fat gain... gaining muscle on bulking diets was never my problem, I always gained too much fat... even if calories were spot on... so, I figured... what the hell... I think it went better this time bulking than in years past, but Im still
trying to tweak the routine... altho, just for the record, Ive never had better recovery... I was injured going into the bulking.. and even with the increase in intensity and weight that Im lifting, Im still recovering fine...

Im on maintenance calories now, so I hope to shed some of this "fluff" (as my woman calls it) before the beginning of the year...

**fitnessman** · 12-11-2002, 06:17 AM

I will have to do a search to find the olds threads. I recall getting into some nice debates on this subject. Scotty2 was involved as I recall.

A keto bulk is not for the faint of heart. You have to love large quanities of meats and fats. I dont recommmend this to very many, but I like it.

Will find info and post when time allows!

**Original Poster** · 12-11-2002, 06:52 AM

Originally posted by Anxed
... my reason for using a keto bulk was a matter of fat gain... gaining muscle on bulking diets was never my problem, I always gained too much fat...

In that case, I can understand why many would give a keto bulk a try.

Leaner gains for some due to the lower insulin levels and how some peoples body's respond to the increased cals along woth increased insulin. But I have to believe there would be a trade off. How much of a trade off, I don't know, that's what I'm trying to get at

.

Fitnessman,

I know there have been many threads on keto bulking. Most I remember and have been able to find address the way to do it, how it has worked for some. I'm really interested in keto and how it pertains to GH/IGF-1 and insulin levels when bulking and it's effects on recovery/gains yada, yada, yada.
I'm not looking for more personal experiences, but rather the science behind it all.

(Did the Turkey Come Yet ?)

PEACE

**Anxed** · 12-11-2002, 08:35 AM

Leaner gains for some due to the lower insulin levels and how some peoples body's respond to the increased cals along woth increased insulin. But I have to believe there would be a trade off. How much of a trade off, I don't know, that's what I'm trying to get at

so you are basically saying its perfect for a guy like me (gains fat and muscle rather easily), but maybe for others (dont gain muscle and/or fat easily) who need that insulin boost for gains, there may be better options? the tradeoff is the big question... so here is my personal experience...

for me, the tradeoff is lower fat gain with a smaller amount of muscle gain... hmm... but the muscle gain difference I have had between keto bulk and carb-based bulk has to be negligable, since Im as big and strong (and stronger in many areas) as I was on a carb based diets...

might be training difference.. I admit that, but the strongest Ive ever been prior to now, was about 6 or so years ago when I was on gear

but Im leaner after bulk..

on carb based diet, I would get to about 17% bf, while on keto I seem to be around 15%... (altho, this could easily explain the bf%, as my water levels from the test might have increased the bf%)

Fitnessman, Id love to see what you have to say on this...

**fitnessman** · 12-11-2002, 08:56 AM

http://www.jbc.org/cgi/content/full/274/53/37598

I have a better study but its at home on my PC.

Insulin levels in a healthly individual will not be lower than someone one a carb based diet. A fat based diet is being used to treat many people with sugar problems. Insulin levels are more stable in fact, Atkins and Eades have proved that over and over(plus many others).

That is a very good question that was asked. I feel that more educated people than I could debate this for a long time and still not have the answer.

It is my theroy that more igf-1(a pre-curser to GH) is produced on a ketogenic type of diet. Having been proven that amino acid supplementation(Arginine, Lynsine, Orinithine) increases GH levels on any diet, I see no proof that IGF-1 levels would be compromised either. Theroy....

**Original Poster** · 12-11-2002, 09:26 AM

Originally posted by fitnessman
[url]
It is my theroy that more igf-1(a pre-curser to GH) is produced on a ketogenic type of diet. Having been proven that amino acid supplementation(Arginine, Lynsine, Orinithine) increases GH levels on any diet, I see no proof that IGF-1 levels would be compromised either. Theroy....

Master.......... igf-1 is not a precurser to HGH, rather it is the other way around and a bit more complicated than that, as I understand it.

Most of the time growth hormone is released in a pulsatile fashion during sleep or following strenuous physical activity.

It is quickly converted in the liver to a powerful growth-promoting metabolite known as IGF-1. IGF-1 is the primary youth-promoting factor of HGH.

The levels of IGF-1 is not at question but rather the effectiveness on growth and repair in a carb depleted state, with lower basal insulin levels.

The IGF-1 along with higher insulin levels is the basis for the anabolic environment the way I understand it. If I'm wrong, please (anyone)help correct my confusion on this. What I am wondering is ........is the absence of higher levels of insulin minimizing the effect of the elevated levels of IGF-1......I have to believe it will and I am searching for a study or data to show that directly or indirectly.

Boy this if FUN.

LOL

PEACE

**fitnessman** · 12-11-2002, 10:03 AM

IGF-1 is what is responsible for most of the POSITIVE effects that the body experiences with higher HGH levels.

I am at work sometimes my brain works faster than my typing skills

I wrote it backwards.

The way I understand it is HGH is converted to IGF-1 in the liver, so by keeping your natural GH levels high so would the IGF levels be high as well, No matter what diet?

Also insulin levels are better regulated on a fat based diet in most.

I have a really detailed study at home, back to work for now.

**Original Poster** · 12-11-2002, 10:35 AM

Originally posted by fitnessman

Also insulin levels are better regulated on a fat based diet in most.

I know, but will the resulting lower sustained insulin levels be the limiting factor of the effectiveness of the IGF-1 as I fear it may?

I'm convinced that for Anxed (and maybe myself, endo/meso), that a bulking keto may be the way to go. I'm just trying to understand to the best of by pea brain's ability the way this all works and what trade offs there are for keto bulking.
If what I suspect is correct, keto bulking would not be the best way for a HARDGAINER to Bulk.

PEACE

**scotty2** · 12-11-2002, 10:43 AM

Originally posted by Chi_town
I know, but will the resulting lower sustained insulin levels be the limiting factor of the effectiveness of the IGF-1 as I fear it may?

I'm convinced that for Anxed (and maybe myself, endo/meso), that a bulking keto may be the way to go. I'm just trying to understand to the best of by pea brain's ability the way this all works and what trade offs there are for keto bulking.
If what I suspect is correct, keto bulking would not be the best way for a HARDGAINER to Bulk.

PEACE

I agreee that Keto may be the optimal bulking plan for the endo.

**fitnessman** · 12-11-2002, 11:16 AM

Keto bulking for a hard gainer is not the way to go.

The key here is to understand insulin. It is important to know that insulin differs from other hormones in that the quanity circulating in the blood stream changes on a minute to minute basis. Half on insulin realeased is removed from the blood within seven minutes of release. That being the case, blood sugar levels change on a minute by minute bases as well. Highs and lows.

Lower insulin levels on a high fat diet? No, but level levels.

My theroy is while on a ketogenic type bulking diet insulin levels are mantained at more of a even level thus in the long run more IGF will be converted from GH.

Insulin I know alot about. IGF-1 so-so.

**Original Poster** · 12-11-2002, 11:35 AM

Originally posted by fitnessman
The key here is to understand insulin.

and........its effect on the effectiveness of IGF-1 for growth and repair.

I don't care how high the IGF-1 levels are, if sufficent insulin is not present it may be of little (or much less) benefit. Similar to creatine and it's dependentcy on insuline to drive it into the muscle. You can ingest all the creatine you want but without the proper environment(enough insulin present), its a waste IMO.

PEACE

**fitnessman** · 12-11-2002, 11:52 AM

On carb based diets insulin levels spike often. Does that mean more IGF-1 would be produced?

High fat diets are used to treat low and high levels of sugar, thus maintaining a constant normal level of insulin.

Ahhh debates

**Original Poster** · 12-11-2002, 12:12 PM

On carb based diets insulin levels spike often. Does that mean more IGF-1 would be produced?

No, On the contrary, increased insulin levels would cause less GH to be produced, thus less IGF-1 would be made out of the GH. I know this is simplifying it......oh well.

High fat diets are used to treat low and high levels of sugar, thus maintaining a constant normal level of insulin.

Constant levels of insulin are good.....most of the time. But would the basal levels be lower? Which may have a negative effect on IGF-1 effectivness. I don't know.

PEACE

**Original Poster** · 12-11-2002, 12:16 PM

Originally posted by fitnessman
Ahhh debates

Not really a debate, but rather a journey for knowledge.

There just isn't enough time in my day to do all I would like in terms of research on issues like these......thus I turn to you all to help educate me and answer my questions. LOL But my research on this will yield something concrete.......someday

.

PEACE

**fitnessman** · 12-11-2002, 12:39 PM

I really have seen no lowering of base blood insulin levels due to a high fat diet.

Remember Pete even if you ate nothing but meat(we would never do that) insulin would still be produced due to the protein conversion factor(protein to glucose). As high as 66% conversion.

On a high protein, low fat, low carb diet insulin levels would be lowered.

On a high fat diet this is not the case. This can be proven by the protein conversion rate. It drops to 30's(depending on who you read). Also this can be proven with simple blood work.

**Original Poster** · 12-11-2002, 01:03 PM

Originally posted by fitnessman
I really have seen no lowering of base blood insulin levels due to a high fat diet.

Is there anything you have found studies ect. that agree with this ? I'm not questioning your statement, but rather interested in the fact of keto's effect on base blood insulin levels.

PEACE

**Original Poster** · 12-11-2002, 01:03 PM

Originally posted by fitnessman
I really have seen no lowering of base blood insulin levels due to a high fat diet.

Is there anything you have found studies ect. that agree with this ? I'm not questioning your statement, but rather interested in the fact of keto's effect on base blood insulin levels.

PEACE

**IPR** · 12-11-2002, 04:32 PM

Wow.... I'm in the wrong time zone for this debate

There seems to be abit of a misunderstanding about IGF-1 and Insulin in muscle growth and repair.

My understanding is that for muscles to grow that insulin doesn't assist IGF-1, but for growth BOTH IGF-1 AND Insulin are needed as each transports different amino acids.

So, I agree with Chi, there is a conflict here for maximising muscle growth.

I understand guys who are taking rHGH overcome this conflict as they keep elevated insulin levels (which of course stops natural HGH production) but inject the stuff instead. BANG...... massive growth (and potential heart disease and risk of becoming diabetic as the pancrease gives up producing insulin, as become insulin resistant). To overcome this and to keep both pituitary gland and pancrease functioning properly they cycle with a keto diet on the off weeks.

I also understand that IGF-1 is responsible for fat burning?

Anyway, I think the keto way result in MORE HGH production and hence IGF-1, but less insulin. Also the increased IGF-1 means more fat burning hence remain leaner and need more cal intake when bulking. A 40/40/20 results in less HGH/IGF-1, but MORE insulin or insulin spikes.

It seems to me that the both ways are a compromise. However, having excess HGH/IGF-1 and controlling insulin spikes would seems a preferable way if one can time things correctly rather than trying to promote production of HGH when insulin levels are higher or spiking often.

Here is alink to a site where a doctor who used to produce rHGH posted (he recently died, heart failure), but it explains a few things about the insulin and IGF-1 relationship.

http://www.rajeun.net/bigdoc.html

**IPR** · 12-11-2002, 05:47 PM

One more thing is that when we exercise, naturally insulin levels drop, I suppose to allow the release of HGH.

So, even if on a relatively high carb diet, our bodies naturally lower the insulin level allowing release of HGH/IGF-1

**fitnessman** · 12-12-2002, 04:07 AM

Covers insulin levels quite well Chi_.

I make no bones about it, IGF-1 is still a bit of a mystery to me.

**Original Poster** · 12-12-2002, 05:04 AM

I found this section of big interest on this issue.........

"Growth hormone binds to DNA and causes, or stimulates, the DNA to produce more ribosomes. Then GH binds to ribosomes and activates them to turn out IGF-1 molecules. IGF-1 molecules leave the cytoplasm and go into the plasma, thus becoming circulating IGF-1. IGF-1 has a half life of about 20 hours.

IGF-1 and insulin both do very similar things: they both attach to receptors of muscle cells. The receptors are very similar. These receptors are part of the cell membrane structure. GH and insulin both increase the cellular membrane permeability of certain amino acids, to thus facilitate the transfer of those amino acids into the muscle cells into the sarco-plasm.

The amino acids that insulin facilitates to cross are different than the amino acids that IGF-1 helps to cross. The entire array of both of them combined is what is necessary for "proteo-genesis" (new protein for muscles). It is like a double key system in a bank safe: you need both keys, or you can't open the safe. You need ALL the amino acids that IGF-1 helps to cross AND all the amino acids that insulin helps to cross, or you can't have proteo-genesis.

High IGF-1 with low insulin has no anabolic effect because to have new proteo-genesis you need ALL the amino acids helped across by IGF-1 AND of insulin. Low IGF-1 and high insulin also does not help to build muscle because IGF-1 is missing, so the amino acid array is incomplete.

Growth hormone goes into the insulin producing cells of the pancreas to greatly increase the output of insulin, so insulin goes way up... unless there is very little carbohydrate... in which case high insulin doesn't happen. If it did, you could go into a hypoglecemia coma, and you could even die. Nobody knows how this happens, but when GH goes into the pancreas, something turns off the pancreas's response to glucose.

Acromegalic Giants all become Type I diabetics eventually, because GH has so overstimulated their insulin producing cells that they have literally burned out. (Type I diabetes means their pancreas doesn't produce any insulin.)

The other effect of GH is that it makes us insulin resistant to glucose concentration. The beauty of this insulin resistance is that it allows us to have a high insulin levels without profound hypoglycemia, and together with the IGF-1 this then gives us a maximum anabolic effect"

Hmmmmmmmmmm............interesting, to say the least.

Fitty, Thanks for the direction on understanding the full uses and effect of insulin. I'm going to be reading for years.........aarrrrrgg.

PEACE

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Bulking on Keto....GH and low Levels of Insulin

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IPR.....great link....thanks.

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