IF: Part Three

[Mrpb]

1. They used whey because that's simple to do in a lab setting. If they had used beef you would get the same results. And that brings us to another problem of having only 2 meals per day: having very large servings of protein in one meal isn't more effective in stimulating muscle protein synthesis than smaller portions.

A 113-g serving of lean beef increased muscle protein synthesis by approximately 50% in both young and older volunteers. Despite a threefold increase in protein and energy content, there was no further increase in protein synthesis after ingestion of 340 g lean beef in either age group. Ingestion of more than 30 g protein in a single meal does not further enhance the stimulation of muscle protein synthesis in young and elderly.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19699838

2. Your theory that the increase in HGH will have meaningful effects on body composition is just speculation and nothing more. I simply point back to the study that has tested IF for body composition and didn't find any positive effect, in fact it found a small, non significant negative effect: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19776143

3. More speculation without evidence.

I don't know how you got so sold on the IF methodology but it's almost as if you have been brain washed.

[AlwaysEatingLG]

1. They used whey because that's simple to do in a lab setting. If they had used beef you would get the same results. And that brings us to another problem of having only 2 meals per day: having very large servings of protein in one meal isn't more effective in stimulating muscle protein synthesis than smaller portions.


2. Your theory that the increase in HGH will have meaningful effects on body composition is just speculation and nothing more. I simply point back to the study that has tested IF for body composition and didn't find any positive effect, in fact it found a small, non significant negative effect:

3. More speculation without evidence.

I don't know how you got so sold on the IF methodology but it's almost as if you have been brain washed.

ncbi.nlm.nih. gov/pubmed/15897479

Higher insulin sensitivity leads to greater rate of fat loss. Fasting increases insulin sensitivity which I have proven with the studies I have given earlier.

ncbi.nlm.nih. gov/pubmed/15879168

Lower muscle glycogen levels leads to a decrease in the neuromuscular signaling during post-workout recovery. This leads to increased lean mass loss.

muscleforlife. com/low-carb-diet/

Nice article with many studies showing why carbs are your best friend for lean mass retention and fat loss. The fact remains, IF increases insulin sensitivity lending to the ability to increase CHO in your diet while continuing to lose weight and retain lean mass.

We can do this all day and not agree. This is a highly debated subject with many studies on both sides of the argument. I choose the IF side. But for you to state that IF is all mythology is very arrogant and misinformed in my opinion.

[Mrpb]

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15897479

Higher insulin sensitivity leads to greater rate of fat loss. .

The study involved obese women, not involved in resistance training.

And you didn't understand the conclusion of the study. The insulin sensitive women responded better to a HC/LF diet, while the insulin resistant women responded better to a LC/HF diet.

Of course the study didn't investigate IF at all.

And Michael Matthews, the guy you're quoting, is a known high carb fan. Sure he will make low carb look bad. Cool story, but it says nothing about IF.

As for your 1985 study, you're really grasping at straws now.

I don't think you actually want to see the light. But I'll try another time. Here's a 2015 meta analysis on meal frequency and body composition.

To be clear, meta analysis is considered pretty good evidence.



http://nutritionreviews.oxfordjourna.../2/69.full.pdf

Take away: No positive effect for a decreased meal frequency at all.

[AlwaysEatingLG]

The study involved obese women, not involved in resistance training.

And you didn't understand the conclusion of the study. The insulin sensitive women responded better to a HC/LF diet, while the insulin resistant women responded better to a LC/HF diet.

Of course the study didn't investigate IF at all.

And Michael Matthews, the guy you're quoting, is a known high carb fan. Sure he will make low carb look bad. Cool story, but it says nothing about IF.

As for your 1985 study, you're really grasping at straws now.

I don't think you actually want to see the light. But I'll try another time. Here's a 2015 meta analysis on meal frequency and body composition.

To be clear, meta analysis is considered pretty good evidence.


Take away: No positive effect for a decreased meal frequency at all.

That's the point though. Insulin resistance meant in order for the insulin resistant people to see fat loss at a rate similar to the insulin sensitive people they needed to decrease carbs. But what if we could somehow increase insulin sensitivity. What if, instead of being miserable eating meat, avocados and nuts all day we could somehow eat more carbs and get away with it. Remember that study that followed a 16 hour fast that I posted earlier? It proves insulin sensitivity is indeed increased due to fasting.

ncbi.nlm.nih. gov/pubmed/1905998

Don't discount the neuromuscular signaling of post-workout recovery systems study just because it was from 1985. This makes it seem like you to are starting to grasp at straws because you could not find anything wrong with the methodology of the study save the fact that it was a little old.

By the way, I eat over 500 grams of carbs a day along with IF and am continuing to see decreased body fat while retaining every last ounce of lean mass.

[Mrpb]

That's the point though. Insulin resistance meant in order for the insulin resistant people to see fat loss at a rate similar to the insulin sensitive people they needed to decrease carbs.

The women lost fat just fine on the LC/HF diet. They didn't need to increase their insulin sensitivity.

The preponderance of evidence shows that high carb diets don't outperform low carb diets for body composition. It's actually a tie.

Look if you want to argue that IF increases insulin sensitivity in people with higher body fat who don't exercise, that's fine. I'll agree with you. You can find newer studies proving that.

And IF may improve insulin sensitivity in your case. But the idea that it has meaningful effects on body composition is wishful thinking. Yes you might improve insulin sensitivity, but it's certain that net protein balance goes down with only 2 protein feedings per day.

In your case you're not doing serious lifting so net protein balance will not be that important. But you're on a bodybuilding forum here.

Don't discount the neuromuscular signaling of post-workout recovery systems study just because it was from 1985. This makes it seem like you to are starting to grasp at straws because you could not find anything wrong with the methodology of the study save the fact that it was a little old.

I didn't dismiss it because it was from 1985, I dismissed it because of the content. Several of the studies you linked to aren't about IF. I want to see direct evidence, not indirect through your reasoning.

You can't show evidence where 2 meals led to superior body composition. You can't show evidence where a 16/8 protocol led to superior body composition results.

Simply because it doesn't exist.

Here's another review from 2014.

Evidence-based recommendations for natural bodybuilding contest preparation: nutrition and supplementation
Eric R Helms1*, Alan A Aragon2 and Peter J Fitschen3

The evidence collectively suggests that extreme lows or highs in meal frequency have the potential to threaten lean mass preservation and hunger control during bodybuilding contest preparation. However, the functional impact of differences in meal frequency at moderate ranges (e.g., 3–6 meals per day containing a minimum of 20 g protein each) are likely to be negligible in the context of a sound training program and properly targeted total daily macronutrition.

http://www.jissn.com/content/11/1/20

[AlwaysEatingLG]

The women lost fat just fine on the LC/HF diet. They didn't need to increase their insulin sensitivity.

The preponderance of evidence shows that high carb diets don't outperform low carb diets for body composition. It's actually a tie.

Look if you want to argue that IF increases insulin sensitivity in people with higher body fat who don't exercise, that's fine. I'll agree with you. You can find newer studies proving that.

And IF may improve insulin sensitivity in your case. But the idea that it has meaningful effects on body composition is wishful thinking. Yes you might improve insulin sensitivity, but it's certain that net protein balance goes down with only 2 protein feedings per day.

In your case you're not doing serious lifting so net protein balance will not be that important. But you're on a bodybuilding forum here.


I didn't dismiss it because it was from 1985, I dismissed it because of the content. Several of the studies you linked to aren't about IF. I want to see direct evidence, not indirect through your reasoning.

You can't show evidence where 2 meals led to superior body composition. You can't show evidence where a 16/8 protocol led to superior body composition results.

Simply because it doesn't exist.

IHere another review from 2014.

Evidence-based recommendations for natural bodybuilding contest preparation: nutrition and supplementation
Eric R Helms1*, Alan A Aragon2 and Peter J Fitschen3

Yes, I do serious training. I rock climb at a very high level. I have gone from 268 32% body fat to 220 14% body fat in 6 months. So 190 lean mass with 24.7 FFMI... i'm not exactly a lightweight am I. Rock climbing is a total body workout that will have you on the floor writhing in pain all over your body if all you ever did was controlled, weight lifting in a gym. Functional strength is far superior imo to how much you can lift a bar in a highly specific, controlled manner. This is why a bodybuilder will never be able to compete with a trained athlete. Nice huge muscles brah but why did you get your ass kicked by that chick that does pilates? But we're not here to debate workout routines are we.

Your right there are few if any IF specific studies out there. That's the problem. You are drawing on a never ending supply of studies that never even thought to factor in IF. This is the cutting edge of nutrition science and it will take another decade before there are more studies done on IF and its benefits. In the meantime, I along with the many other IF followers in this thread will continue to eat whatever the hell we want and still see amazing results because of IF.

[sevenhm]

Yes, I do serious training. I rock climb at a very high level. I have gone from 268 32% body fat to 220 14% body fat in 6 months. So 190 lean mass with 24.7 FFMI... i'm not exactly a lightweight am I. Rock climbing is a total body workout that will have you on the floor writhing in pain all over your body if all you ever did was controlled, weight lifting in a gym. Functional strength is far superior imo to how much you can lift a bar in a highly specific, controlled manner. This is why a bodybuilder will never be able to compete with a trained athlete. Nice huge muscles brah but why did you get your ass kicked by that chick that does pilates? But we're not here to debate workout routines are we.

Your right there are few if any IF specific studies out there. That's the problem. You are drawing on a never ending supply of studies that never even thought to factor in IF. This is the cutting edge of nutrition science and it will take another decade before there are more studies done on IF and its benefits. In the meantime, I along with the many other IF followers in this thread will continue to eat whatever the hell we want and still see amazing results because of IF.

You like extrapolating uncorrelated things to fit your schemes. No matter how much you argue it doesn't change the fact that IF does not promote/accelerate fat loss. The primary component is a caloric deficit. All strength is functional.. You're taking an extreme idea of whatever you think is a bodybuilder and comparing to another idea of what you think is "functional". There's a reason why elite level athletes in multiple sports incorporate weight lifting. When you say why did the bodybuilder get his ass kicked by the woman who does pilates do you mean in terms of flexibility? If so, that again would be biased because being large does not necessarily limit mobility;also, it makes no sense to compare things that are drastically different. It seems like you're failing to understand that there are multiple studies on meal frequency having no effect on weight loss.

[Mrpb]

Yes, I do serious training. I rock climb at a very high level.

Increasing lean mass is probably not the goal of rock climbing. It is for bodybuilding.

But I'll agree with you that increasing muscle protein synthesis will probably still benefit you.

I have gone from 268 32% body fat to 220 14% body fat in 6 months. So 190 lean mass with 24.7 FFMI...

Going by the pictures in your bodyspace, you're body fat is higher than 14%. No doubt.

If you're so interested in increasing insulin sensitivity, drop 10-20 pounds of fat. That will be a very effective way of increasing insulin sensitivity, more than fasting can achieve.

sevenhm, what do you estimate his body fat?
http://bodyspace.bodybuilding.com/pe...ingLG/79150591

Your right there are few if any IF specific studies out there. That's the problem. You are drawing on a never ending supply of studies that never even thought to factor in IF. This is the cutting edge of nutrition science and it will take another decade before there are more studies done on IF and its benefits. In the meantime, I along with the many other IF followers in this thread will continue to eat whatever the hell we want and still see amazing results because of IF.

The 2009 I quoted was 100% on IF. And there are more specific studies on IF. They show it can be beneficial for rats and obese people who don't exercise.

Take lean people who do exercise and the benefits of IF disappear.

And with all the research being done on optimising muscle protein synthesis it's become clear that 2 protein rich meals per day is not optimal for MPS. This 2015 review by leading protein researcher Stuart Phillips is another example:
http://journal.frontiersin.org/artic...015.00245/full

He recommends 4 protein rich meals for people who want to increase mass.

[sevenhm]

sevenhm, what do you estimate his body fat?
http://bodyspace.bodybuilding.com/pe...ingLG/79150591

Around 18-20%

[Mrpb]

Around 18-20%

Yeah that was what I was thinking ~18%.

He's going to be so much better at rock climbing after dropping 20 pounds.

[Hooverville]

This last page was a hoot.

[danieosro]

Hey everyone.
I started IF yesterday to break a fat loss plateau and to limit hunger.
I'm already pretty low in cals and due to time constrains I would only be able to train right before my feeding window, so I was wondering if eating my first meal before my workout (keeping the 8 h feeding window) would ruin the process.
It just scares me to death going into heavy squats and deadlifts without some carbs in, especially after a 15h fasting and very low cals in general.
Any lights on this?
Thank you.

[EmperorRyker]

Hey everyone.
I started IF yesterday to break a fat loss plateau and to limit hunger.
I'm already pretty low in cals and due to time constrains I would only be able to train right before my feeding window, so I was wondering if eating my first meal before my workout (keeping the 8 h feeding window) would ruin the process.
It just scares me to death going into heavy squats and deadlifts without some carbs in, especially after a 15h fasting and very low cals in general.
Any lights on this?
Thank you.

That's fine.

[WhyAmISoHuge]

Does IF cause your maintenance level to go up? If so, by how much?

I am eating about 2300 calories at 5'7" 180lbs and im losing weight. Water weight at this point, possibly. I've cut before but not through intermittent fasting, really. I ate less calories then and I feel like I'm losing weight at a similar pace.

[Mrpb]

Does IF cause your maintenance level to go up? If so, by how much?

The only study I've seen it measure measured a decrease in TDEE during IF.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19776143

[WhyAmISoHuge]

The only study I've seen it measure measured a decrease in TDEE during IF.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19776143

I'm not sure if I'm understanding the article correctly. By this logic, that'd mean daily maintenance should be lower, no?

If so, isn't that just a negative and a reason NOT to do IF?

[Mrpb]

I'm not sure if I'm understanding the article correctly. By this logic, that'd mean daily maintenance should be lower, no?

If so, isn't that just a negative and a reason NOT to do IF?

The difference in resting expenditure is minor. I wouldn't base my decision on that.

The main thing going against IF is that spreading your protein over the day is better for muscle protein synthesis. Not a huge difference either.

Some people get good results with IF nonetheless.

[BabyOilBrah]

If IF fits your lifestyle do it, if not don't force yourself to do it and vice versa. Hitting your macros/total calories far outweighs any of the discussion. So if IF on a cut say helps your hit your macros and stay consistent, then it would be far more beneficial for the individual than if they forced themselves to eat 4-5 evenly spread meals yet found themselves going over in calories often. The difference in intermittent fasting or not is so minor in comparison to hitting cals/macros.

[WhyAmISoHuge]

If IF fits your lifestyle do it, if not don't force yourself to do it and vice versa. Hitting your macros/total calories far outweighs any of the discussion. So if IF on a cut say helps your hit your macros and stay consistent, then it would be far more beneficial for the individual than if they forced themselves to eat 4-5 evenly spread meals yet found themselves going over in calories often. The difference in intermittent fasting or not is so minor in comparison to hitting cals/macros.

Right, I get that. I like IF because it's easier for me to cut down on calories, and easier to cook less meals and get my macros in. I was just curious about other benefits, I suppose.

[Jorge0886]

I used to do IF a couple of years ago and I loved it, but then I got into a relationship and it just wasn't easy to continue so I dropped it. I want to do it again but my workouts/goals are a little different can you guys help with some questions?

I now only lift 3 days a week, and I do a lot more cardio (triathlon training). This is give or take a normal week for me.

-Monday-
lift
1 mile run

-Tuesday-
2-3 mile run

-Wednesday-
Lift
1 mile run

-Thursday-
15-20 mile bike ride

-Friday-
Lift
1 mile run

-Saturday-
600-1000 yards swim
2-3 mile run

-Sunday-
600-1000 yards swim
10-15 mile bike ride
2-3 mile run

I'm trying to maintain the mass that I have, and lean out, but obviously I need a lot of energy for my workouts. I typically work out fasted when I do IF... am I in for trouble with that amount of cardio fasted? It's not that much, I'm just not used to doing cardio is all. I feel fine now, I'm just sluggish and I know I don't eat enough now because I stay super sore in my legs.

Any advice?

[Budjola]

doing IF for some time now, but yesterday started IF Keto, just trying to cut last % of fat and trying to preserve as much muscle mass as possible.

cardio 6-7x a week 45 mins, 3.8mph at 8.0 incline setting on threadmill plus weights mostly focusing on strength and form.

[Ravax]

doing IF for some time now, but yesterday started IF Keto, just trying to cut last % of fat and trying to preserve as much muscle mass as possible.

cardio 6-7x a week 45 mins, 3.8mph at 8.0 incline setting on threadmill plus weights mostly focusing on strength and form.

Im on 20/4 (actually 22/2 but i consider BCAAs to break the fast) If you find you lose too much lean mass while doing all that cardio, try just going heavy in the gym while fasted, and drink some BCAAs during training, and properly break the fast right after training. I did that last week, retained all my strength, and dropped 1.2kgs in 6 days.

[1outof10beta]

I am doing IF and struggling... eating 1500 calories per day and I find I am starving at 10pm after my last meal at 8pm?

[Mrpb]

I am doing IF and struggling... eating 1500 calories per day and I find I am starving at 10pm after my last meal at 8pm?

Too little calories. You'll be starving no matter how you spread them.

IF is nothing special by the way. You can the same results eating 3 or 4 meals per day.

[danieosro]

Too little calories. You'll be starving no matter how you spread them.

IF is nothing special by the way. You can the same results eating 3 or 4 meals per day.

Absolutely not true.
I broke a plateau 6 weeks ago with Eat Stop Eat, without chaging calories, training or macros otherwise.
I'm still losing weight on the same calories.
I'd like to learn the logic behind it, though.

[Budjola]

IF crew, i take around 2000-2300 kcals a day and still dropping down, guess all cardio is worth it.

[Mrpb]

Absolutely not true.
I broke a plateau 6 weeks ago with Eat Stop Eat, without chaging calories, training or macros otherwise.
I'm still losing weight on the same calories.
I'd like to learn the logic behind it, though.

Recommended reading: http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/pmidlookup?v...&pmid=19776143

And: http://easacademy.org/trainer-resour...ittent-fasting

[Jorge0886]

Has anyone who has been doing IF for over a year gotten any medical tests run to make sure everything in still in spec? Just curious.

[asto_86]

I've actually made a couple videos on IF for my clients that don't know anything about it or don't need the all the science behind it if you guys wouldn't mind taking a look...

https://youtu.be/2btM9Cid4_E

https://youtu.be/gb5Wuods6Gs

https://youtu.be/KqyJkNtI-f0

Let me know what you guys think

[buffpig]

been on IF for 7 months, I went from 175lb to 160lb. Been on a clean bulk phase for 2 months. I currently weight 164lb.
I definitely got bigger, abs still there but not as defined.

I m going to keep clean bulk for another 3 months this winter and trim in Spring. I will report back