***The Official Atheist and Christian Friendly Discussion***

[2nd_chance]

You want to keep this thread going, do ya?

So, have you thought out this eternity in Heaven thing as far as not working out for eternity?

Or does God have a gym?

I have no reason to think that exercise and lifting won't be part of eternity. Bacon too!

[supramax]

I have no reason to think that exercise and lifting won't be part of eternity. Bacon too!

So, gyms and slaughterhouses in Heaven, eh?

[OldFartTom]

Catching up on this thread, just seen home gyms of thedickus and 2nd_chance
WOW, ******* wow!!! Those are 2 impressive gyms, amazing

[thedickus]

Very nice setup. This is mine. We basically bought up the equipment from a small commercial gym that was closing. It’s hard to get it all in on one picture but this is it. God has blessed me

Awesome setup! What kind of leverage squat machine is that? I used to have a PowerTec leverage squat, not great but serviceable. Since you bought out a commercial gym I'm guessing yours is heavy duty. One machine I do miss.
I agree with you hard work and good decisions have yielded great results for you. Carry on man! You seem like a solid dude, glad to share the Earth with you during our remaining trips around the Sun.
As far as bacon in heaven, unfortunately that's going to be a no. Turkey bacon yes, but not real bacon. Probably the biggest reason I don't want to go, that and spending eternity with Jerry Farwell.

[7Seconds]

Our Bacon, which art in the oven, crispy be thy name, Thy belly come, thy will be done, on the stove as it is in the oven. Give us this day our daily bread, and give us sandwiches as we give sandwiches to those that are next to us, and lead us not into veganism, but deliver us from low cholesterol. Hail bacon, full of grease.



Sorry.

[ljimd]

Now I know why pigs don't go to church.
Learn something new everyday.

[2nd_chance]

Awesome setup! What kind of leverage squat machine is that? I used to have a PowerTec leverage squat, not great but serviceable. Since you bought out a commercial gym I'm guessing yours is heavy duty. One machine I do miss.
I agree with you hard work and good decisions have yielded great results for you. Carry on man! You seem like a solid dude, glad to share the Earth with you during our remaining trips around the Sun.
As far as bacon in heaven, unfortunately that's going to be a no. Turkey bacon yes, but not real bacon. Probably the biggest reason I don't want to go, that and spending eternity with Jerry Farwell.

I’ve made some OK decisions but the best one was to follow Jesus. As for Falwell, yeah he was annoying. Glad to share the globe with you too.

[charlievanriper]

Doesnt Matter if you believe in God Trust him or not, Whether you like him hate him....None of that matters Fact is Like it or Not in the End God wins

[supramax]

Doesnt Matter if you believe in God Trust him or not, Whether you like him hate him....None of that matters Fact is Like it or Not in the End God wins

Only while you're alive and subscribing to a crackpot model of the universe.

[2nd_chance]

Only while you're alive and subscribing to a crackpot model of the universe.

You’re a ray of sunshine.

[ChazWood]

Only while you're alive and subscribing to a crackpot model of the universe.

Dude, now I really want there to be a God just to see the look on your face while we're burning in hell for all eternity.

[supramax]

Dude, now I really want there to be a God just to see the look on your face while we're burning in hell for all eternity.

That's very Christian of you.

[lasher]

Dude, now I really want there to be a God just to see the look on your face while we're burning in hell for all eternity.

wtf?

[ChazWood]

That's very Christian of you.

I've been called worse.

Bitter old fart has yet to be among them, which is more than I can say aboot you; sir farthead.

wtf?

I'm just being silly and mean no offense with my comments.

Hey; I should make that my sig line.

[OldFartTom]

..Bitter old fart has yet to be among them...

If you mean me? I'm out of original witty abusive comments. I was greatly impressed by Paul's "your family tree is a circle" one, that made me chuckle I'm going to have to do my homework to get up to that standard. Or the supposedly mystery person's "fkn fkburger" torrent which also made me chuckle, not as witty, just the sheer enthusiasm of the typing, A+ for effort! I'll have to think of some creative abuse for you, don't feel left out Chas, you'll get some, this is the Internet..

Now I know why pigs don't go to church.
Learn something new everyday.

Nah, it goes back further. They were offended by "Don't cast your pearls before swine" saying it was swinophobic and infringed their rights

[ChazWood]

If you mean me? I'm out of original witty abusive comments. I was greatly impressed by Paul's "your family tree is a circle" one, that made me chuckle I'm going to have to do my homework to get up to that standard. Or the supposedly mystery person's "fkn fkburger" torrent which also made me chuckle, not as witty, just the sheer enthusiasm of the typing, A+ for effort! I'll have to think of some creative abuse for you, don't feel left out Chas, you'll get some, this is the Internet..

t'was not directed t'wards you old boy, and no homework needed in the area of original witty abuse. You're a good egg, Tom.

[2nd_chance]

Opponents of the gospel of Christ often argue that when someone comes to Christ in a crisis that they’re just using God as a crutch. While this argument may have merit initially, it certainly fails to stand up when the person goes on to live a lifetime of following Christ in normal life conditions. For me, it has been 37 years. There’s positively nothing that could ever change my mind about the reality of Jesus Christ. It is a spiritual, emotional and intellectual experience. Some of the greatest thinkers in history have been Christian. Harvard, Yale and many other Ivy League schools began as seminaries to train ministers. Further, a large portion or relief around the world is performed by Christian agencies. This nation was founded on Christian values. Mockers can mock all they want. But it doesn’t change a thing.

[OldFartTom]

Opponens of the gospel of Christ often argue that when someone comes to Christ in a crisis that they’re just using God as a crutch....

That one is definitely one of the opinions I had when I really disliked Christians for many years. In my experience that's not at all an uncommon view among atheists.

[thedickus]

This nation was founded on Christian values. Mockers can mock all they want. But it doesn’t change a thing.

This nation was founded on freedom from religion. Remember many of the founding fathers were deists. Jefferson famously created the Jefferson bible, showing Jesus as a regular man, just focusing on his moral teachings and completely getting rid of any supernatural or miraculous elements.

[2nd_chance]

This nation was founded on freedom from religion. Remember many of the founding fathers were deists. Jefferson famously created the Jefferson bible, showing Jesus as a regular man, just focusing on his moral teachings and completely getting rid of any supernatural or miraculous elements.

Yes I imagine that's how the history books have been doctored over the past 30 years. It's funny that you show one isolated example. And what is your explanation of "In God We Trust"?

[thedickus]

Yes I imagine that's how the history books have been doctored over the past 30 years. It's funny that you show one isolated example. And what is your explanation of "In God We Trust"?

"In God We Trust", also "In God we trust", is the official motto of the United States of America and of the U.S. state of Florida. It was adopted by the U.S. Congress in 1956, supplanting E pluribus unum, which had been in use since the initial 1776 design of the Great Seal of the United States.
The fact that a good many of the founding fathers were deists is hardly an isolated example.

Edit:
It's awesome that for the last 37 years you've been a stand up dude. From the little I know about you it appears that the world is probably a better place with you in it. What I and most atheists think is that you could still be a stand up dude if you just believed in you, and not god.

[2nd_chance]

"In God We Trust", also "In God we trust", is the official motto of the United States of America and of the U.S. state of Florida. It was adopted by the U.S. Congress in 1956, supplanting E pluribus unum, which had been in use since the initial 1776 design of the Great Seal of the United States.
The fact that a good many of the founding fathers were deists is hardly an isolated example.

Edit:
It's awesome that for the last 37 years you've been a stand up dude. From the little I know about you it appears that the world is probably a better place with you in it. What I and most atheists think is that you could still be a stand up dude if you just believed in you, and not god.

I have no doubt that I would be a stand up dude without Christ. But what I believe is that all the stand up dudes in the world are all still eternally lost without a saving relationship with the Creator.

As for this country's early days, there were surely unbelievers then as well. No dispute. But it does not negate the amount of good that's been done in the world (including hospitals, charities and universities) in the name of Christ.

[7Seconds]

Founders had diverse views on religion--some were deists, most were Christians, many held unorthodox views. Most "average" early American citizens were Christians. In the early republic, people thought the Establishment Clause only held for the federal government. Maryland, for example, kept an explicitly Christian constitution until 1851--long after the First Amendment passed. The Bill of Rights was not binding on the States until the 14th amendment and plenty of states continued to have state religions and religiosity tests well past ratification.


It does seem clear that the founders took pains to make sure that we would not be put in a situation where there was a single, state-sanction religion that you could be persecuted for not adhering to.

There are a number of quotes which seem to indicate that some of the founders felt strongly that our nation should be made up of a moral people because without that, freedom would become impossible. Some founders, like John Adams seem more amenable to coupling this morality with religious belief. Others, like Franklin seem to reference simple morality itself as the key element to a free society.

[OldFartTom]

I know little about US history, certainly when compared to you guys, but I do know a little bit from the other side of the water here that the first settlers were people of very strong religious conviction. The Established Church (i.e. The Church of England) was at the time very political and oppressive. Theologically reasonably like the Catholic Church of Rome but with the Pope swapped for the King of England. However the Established Church considered itself as Reformed, many disagreed especially the Puritans and Pilgrims who had broadly similar strong religious views - notable difference was the Pilgrims believed in keeping separate and making a fresh start. A lot of Pilgrims moved to create a colony in Holland where they weren't persecuted for their faith.

The story picks up as you'll likely know it, in 1620 with the Mayflower and associated ships sailing from Boston (England) to Holland to pickup Pilgrims and then with a few stops including a stayover in London (England) to Southampton (England) to start their crossing to the New World. Since their ships were pretty leaky (especially The Speedwell) they had to come back again to repairs and allow people who'd changed their minds to disembark, and so set off again from Plymouth (England) to land in Plymouth Colony (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plymou...Colony_map.svg). The rest of the history is for you guys to document. But the above explains why the starting point of the voyage is [pointlessly] debated, really you can justify picking any of the locations above to manufacture an argument.

But if you count the Pilgrims as part of the founding of the US (I mean the overall process not the declaration etc), then unquestionably they were strongly Christian (For brevity I'll call them Puritan, as it's very similar)
If you don't count the Pilgrims in this, then the Colony established until its mutiny in 1770's, was culturally based on the Values of the Established Church (Anglican) although the system's grossly unfair treatment of settlers could hardly be called "Christian" in that sense of the word.
Whether or not the declaration and your constitution counts as Christian based that's for you guys to debate, not me as lobsterback.

To me the more recent change in motto doesn't necessarily mean that the religious element was added later. "E Pluribus Unum" became unpopular after WW2, because it sounds uncomfortably/confusingly like Fascism. Note that many fascists, not just Italians, used the symbol of a tied bundle of sticks or straw (the symbolism goes back to ancient Greece) - 1 stick is easily broken but together a bundle is strong - "strength through unity". After WW2 any accidental or misunderstood connections to pre-war Fascism wouldn't have been acceptable.

[supramax]

I know little about US history, certainly when compared to you guys, but I do know a little bit from the other side of the water here that the first settlers were people of very strong religious conviction. The Established Church (i.e. The Church of England) was at the time very political and oppressive. Theologically reasonably like the Catholic Church of Rome but with the Pope swapped for the King of England. However the Established Church considered itself as Reformed, many disagreed especially the Puritans and Pilgrims who had broadly similar strong religious views - notable difference was the Pilgrims believed in keeping separate and making a fresh start. A lot of Pilgrims moved to create a colony in Holland where they weren't persecuted for their faith.

The story picks up as you'll likely know it, in 1620 with the Mayflower and associated ships sailing from Boston (England) to Holland to pickup Pilgrims and then with a few stops including a stayover in London (England) to Southampton (England) to start their crossing to the New World. Since their ships were pretty leaky (especially The Speedwell) they had to come back again to repairs and allow people who'd changed their minds to disembark, and so set off again from Plymouth (England) to land in Plymouth Colony (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plymou...Colony_map.svg). The rest of the history is for you guys to document. But the above explains why the starting point of the voyage is [pointlessly] debated, really you can justify picking any of the locations above to manufacture an argument.

But if you count the Pilgrims as part of the founding of the US (I mean the overall process not the declaration etc), then unquestionably they were strongly Christian (For brevity I'll call them Puritan, as it's very similar)
If you don't count the Pilgrims in this, then the Colony established until its mutiny in 1770's, was culturally based on the Values of the Established Church (Anglican) although the system's grossly unfair treatment of settlers could hardly be called "Christian" in that sense of the word.
Whether or not the declaration and your constitution counts as Christian based that's for you guys to debate, not me as lobsterback.

To me the more recent change in motto doesn't necessarily mean that the religious element was added later. "E Pluribus Unum" became unpopular after WW2, because it sounds uncomfortably/confusingly like Fascism. Note that many fascists, not just Italians, used the symbol of a tied bundle of sticks or straw (the symbolism goes back to ancient Greece) - 1 stick is easily broken but together a bundle is strong - "strength through unity". After WW2 any accidental or misunderstood connections to pre-war Fascism wouldn't have been acceptable.

Nice history lesson. Thank you. I hated history when I was in school, but now I know why my mother loved it so much.

[thomashenry]

This nation was founded on freedom from religion. Remember many of the founding fathers were deists. Jefferson famously created the Jefferson bible, showing Jesus as a regular man, just focusing on his moral teachings and completely getting rid of any supernatural or miraculous elements.

Jesus was just a moral Teacher ? LOL, Just a political Revolutionary for his time, on par with Jefferson ? Just a man like you and me, albeit an extraordinary man at that, maybe he tapped into our inherent potential like no else has before or after, but not supernatural, Like the Tony Robbins of ancient Israel, that`s why the Bible is the best selling book in history and translated into more Languages than anything else, Nothing Supernatural, no miracles because that defies Naturalism {an effect in the natural or physical world, there is a natural cause}, !

What other person in the history of mankind taught the equivalent of the Morals and Ethics as directly and specificly as Jesus, in other words who would have been his Mentor/Teacher that he would have learned from ?

And as you had mentioned earlier, that your an athiest, How would You, rather, Why would want to know or even care about the difference between good and of evil? Their origins, My personal answer to the problem of evil is this: There is no problem of evil in an atheist’s universe because there is no evil in an atheist’s universe. Since there is no God, there is no absolute moral standard, no bedrock foundation to stand upon, it certainly can`t be answered by man, it`s all relative and nothing is really wrong, The torture of little children is not wrong in an atheist’s universe, Mass killing of large Populations, raping and pillaging are acceptable, if they don`t adhere to a Leaders or their Parties Beliefs, just natural selection, It may be painful, but it is not wrong, how could it, there is no absolute morals. It is morally wrong in a theistic universe, and therefore, there is a problem of real evil of perhaps the physical, psychological or emotional sort, but philosophically the answer to the problem of evil is you don’t have an absolute standard of good by which to measure evil in an atheist’s universe. You can only have that in a theistic universe, and therefore, the very posing of the problem presupposes my world view, rather than your own, I believe in the absolute origin of Good/love and unfortunaely of evil

If Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, which I and millions and Billions of others do & have, his and only his alone, teachings are more than just good ideas from a wise and "moral" teacher, they are absolute and divine insights on which I and others can build our Lives, If Jesus sets the standard for morality, I can now how have an unwavering foundation for my choices and decisions, rather than basing them on ever shifting sands of expediency and self centeredness.

If Jesus did rise from the Dead, that means he is still alive today and available for me and anyone else to encounter on a personal basis, if he conquered death, he can open the door of eternal life for me and others too, if he has divine power, he has the supernatural ability to guide and transform me and others lives as I follow him, if he personally knows the pain and loss of suffering, he can comfort and encourage me in the midst of the turbulence that he himself warned about {in this world YOU will have trouble} it is inevitable in a world corrupted by sin, if he loves me as he says he does, then he has my best interest at heart, that means I have nothing to lose by committing to him and his purposes.

If Jesus is who he claims to be {and remember no OTHER leader of any religion has even pretended to be God}, so as My Creator, he rightfully deserves my allegiance, obedience and worship, "Yet to all who received him, to those who believe in his name, he gave the RIGHT to become Children of God"

I dont believe in everything Jefferson said, I do with Jesus though

“I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.”

― C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity

[supramax]

Something has gone wrong if you need dogma in order to be a decent human being.

[DustinTheHuss]

Christianity has helped me so much and I realize I've been drifting away, so my choices in life haven't been the best as they are when I attend Bible Study. It was a huge time constraint but better than sitting on the Main Misc.

[thedickus]

this was a fun, informative thread. I had forgotten all about it until recently. Just went back this morning to re-read some of the points. It was nice to hear other people's stories and get their perspectives. This was honestly one of the most respectful between theists and atheists I've been a part of. I hadn't even noticed Tommy Hank tried to trot out the old you can't have morals without god b.s.

And as you had mentioned earlier, that your an athiest, How would You, rather, Why would want to know or even care about the difference between good and of evil? Their origins, My personal answer to the problem of evil is this: There is no problem of evil in an atheist’s universe because there is no evil in an atheist’s universe. Since there is no God, there is no absolute moral standard, no bedrock foundation to stand upon, it certainly can`t be answered by man, it`s all relative and nothing is really wrong, The torture of little children is not wrong in an atheist’s universe, Mass killing of large Populations, raping and pillaging are acceptable,

No atheist I've ever met or spoke to believes this. This may come as a shock to you but we have morals.
Here's an interesting study done on moral and atheists https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0224143306.htm
It attempts to answer why the perception exists with theists that atheists are amoral.
On the subject of torturing children the bible seems to condone it. It would suck to have been a Midianite or a kid that called Elisha baldy, just for example.