Whenever a weightlifter demonstrates great strength, he is an exception

[ledinred2]

So now we are trying to say that China is not performing up to par because they are "only" medaling in the lower classes. I don't even....

[GoJu]

So now we are trying to say that China is not performing up to par because they are "only" medaling in the lower classes. I don't even....

Gotta save the face of the dogma.

[scarboro]

Hysen has a visibly weak first pull and never came close to replicating those lifts in competition after dropping ~7kg from his training weight.

I know he's nowhere near Xiaojun level just used a well seen online video as an example of saying there are other ways of training especially given the difference in anatomy. If a guy with long femurs that's not especially muscled or carries excess strength (215 fs vs. xiaojun playing around with 230x2) can get that close with absolutely no back squatting or deadlifting then it shows that those exercises are perhaps not needed for everyone.

[ledinred2]

Goju, what will it take for China to produce a heavyweight (+85) that is top 3 at Worlds or Olympics? You have great faith in the Chinese method and they have considerable advantages which I outlined above. So why hasn't it happened yet? And yes, I'm aware that there have been a few who possibly fit the description (Dong, Sun, Cui) but I mean consistently. Where are these guys at the top level? Much smaller countries have been able to do it, why can't China?

The Chinese tend to be short people. The taller athletes that they do have get channeled into other sports early, the same way the kids built for weightlifting in the lower classes get picked out. The guys that do end up as heavier class lifters tend to be lifters that are probably better suited to lower weight classes, but weren't as good as the top guys in those classes, and instead chose to move up instead of trying to compete with them. As such, their heavier classes are full of mediocre (relatively speaking) lifters who are probably better suited to being lighter. Look at the videos on youtube of the 94 and 105 classes at the Chinese nationals. The majority of the lifters look soft and/or out of shape. They look like they are at least a class too high. There are lifters in the 94 class which look like supers in terms of body composition. This is not a training methodology problem. Chinese heavyweights do not suck because of heavy pulling. Heavy pulling does not produce flabby 94s. It's a lack of talent problem. Their heavier classes are always full of their least talented lifters.

[BTBAM]

I know he's nowhere near Xiaojun level just used a well seen online video as an example of saying there are other ways of training especially given the difference in anatomy. If a guy with long femurs that's not especially muscled or carries excess strength (215 fs vs. xiaojun playing around with 230x2) can get that close with absolutely no back squatting or deadlifting then it shows that those exercises are perhaps not needed for everyone.

Well there is very obviously many different ways to skin the cat. I believe, through observation and reading various literature on the subject, that the Chinese believe that being capable in a wide assortment of athletic activities translates to a better all-round athlete, and it is apparent in their lifters. That is just my 2 cents on the matter.

[ledinred2]

I know he's nowhere near Xiaojun level just used a well seen online video as an example of saying there are other ways of training especially given the difference in anatomy. If a guy with long femurs that's not especially muscled or carries excess strength (215 fs vs. xiaojun playing around with 230x2) can get that close with absolutely no back squatting or deadlifting then it shows that those exercises are perhaps not needed for everyone.

Yeah I get that, I just think that Hysen is actually an example of a lifter who clearly would have been better if he were stronger, both in the pull and out of the squat. Obviously I'm not going to presume to know better than Abadjiev when it comes to his training, but you can see clearly from watching him lift that his strength was his limiting factor (and Krychev did say that the priority for him was strength going forward, before he got popped.)

[CHS55]

Hand waving everywhere. This is like arguing with a god damn creationist about the age of the earth. By your logic I can't know the earth is 4.5 billion years old because I wasn't there.

That's ironic because you're the one saying that heavy pulls work because "This guy said that David Rigert said this" or "I heard Chen Wuben does this" when in fact you have neglected to actually educate yourself other than sources of YouTube videos and by word of mouth. The ONLY argument you could give for heavy pulls was that they "work your back in a way that light pulls don't". Quite frankly, I don't know where your certainty is coming from either. If you were personally able to witness Wuben coaching the Chinese team and saw that while keeping all other lifts consistent and in the same volume, while increasing the intensity and volume of the pulls, that without a doubt his lifter's lifts went up, then that would be a worthy argument. If you could at least link me to that documented progression then it would be a worthy argument. If you were a good lifter and thought it worked because it did for you then I could even understand that argument. And I know you're going to come back with how that's ridiculous, I shouldn't have to be there to witness it, but you really don't know. You have to realize that lot's of people in this sport right now are either looking for the 'secret' of weightlifting or selectively looking into other country's program to see if what they do can affirm what they believe. I think the trend right now is to try and mimic the Chinese and Russians for all of the wrong reasons. If you were a good lifter and thought it worked because it did for you then I could even understand that argument.

So as I said, become a coach and prove me wrong

[GoJu]

That's ironic because you're the one saying that heavy pulls work because "This guy said that David Rigert said this" or "I heard Chen Wuben does this" when in fact you have neglected to actually educate yourself other than sources of YouTube videos and by word of mouth. The ONLY argument you could give for heavy pulls was that they "work your back in a way that light pulls don't". Quite frankly, I don't know where your certainty is coming from either. If you were personally able to witness Wuben coaching the Chinese team and saw that while keeping all other lifts consistent and in the same volume, while increasing the intensity and volume of the pulls, that without a doubt his lifter's lifts went up, then that would be a worthy argument. If you could at least link me to that documented progression then it would be a worthy argument. If you were a good lifter and thought it worked because it did for you then I could even understand that argument. And I know you're going to come back with how that's ridiculous, I shouldn't have to be there to witness it, but you really don't know. You have to realize that lot's of people in this sport right now are either looking for the 'secret' of weightlifting or selectively looking into other country's program to see if what they do can affirm what they believe. I think the trend right now is to try and mimic the Chinese and Russians for all of the wrong reasons. If you were a good lifter and thought it worked because it did for you then I could even understand that argument.

So as I said, become a coach and prove me wrong

Yes, you are being ridiculous, my source is people who have been coached by former Chinese national team lifters, there really isn't more of an argument than heavy (>110%) pulls work the back better than light pulls. Chinese have naturally long torsos and thus relatively weak backs hence they need the extra pulling and strength work.

Your criticism is funny because you think you have found the 'secret' of weightlifting through the Russian training documents and you prescribe that every lifter regardless of specific weaknesses or body composition follow the Russian 'rules' to a T, which is extremely ignorant.

No need to become a coach, you're wrong out right.

[CHS55]

Yes, you are being ridiculous, my source is people who have been coached by former Chinese national team lifters, there really isn't more of an argument than heavy (>110%) pulls work the back better than light pulls. Chinese have naturally long torsos and thus relatively weak backs hence they need the extra pulling and strength work.

Your criticism is funny because you think you have found the 'secret' of weightlifting through the Russian training documents and you prescribe that every lifter regardless of specific weaknesses or body composition follow the Russian 'rules' to a T, which is extremely ignorant.

No need to become a coach, you're wrong out right.

Where did I say that I found the secret to weightlifting? Where did I mention what training philosophy I believe in? The only thing that has even been mentioned are heavy pulls; no mention of the frequency squats, incorporation of various assistance or remedial exercises, just the heavy pulls. The secret is that there is none. I'll leave you and the rest of the people that stride into the gym saying "I heard the chinese do it" to themselves; stay mediocre lifter and not even bother to coach anyone seems to be your goal.

[GoJu]

Where did I say that I found the secret to weightlifting? .

You've been implying it the entire thread man, do you even read?

[CHS55]

You've been implying it the entire thread man, do you even read?

That's just plain out silly to think that not approving of heavy pulls implies that I know the secret to weightlifting. Show us your lifts then Mr. Expert/or the lifts of someone you've coached. Presuming you're not a 62 kg lifter, you should be able to snatch well over 100 kg. Even the worst genetics will allow that.

[GoJu]

That's just plain out silly to think that not approving of heavy pulls implies that I know the secret to weightlifting. .

It stems from thinking you know better than the coaches who approve of pulls.

It's not like you're saying pulls never worked for you so you don't do them, no, you're saying they don't work in any and all cases; something you can't know.

[ledinred2]

^This. You (CHS55, EasternHammer) have gone so far to attempt to justify your assertion that heavy pulls are flat-out useless that you are now trying to downplay the success of the Chinese team by claiming that they should be dominating every weight class due to their population size and the fact that they don't is evidence of programming flaws. I don't even know how to respond to such absurdity. Do you honestly think that you know better than the coaches of a very successful program?

So as I said, become a coach and prove me wrong

Why does anyone in this thread have to become a coach to prove you wrong? There are already coaches proving you wrong in other parts of the world. Oh but I forgot, we can completely disregard their success because they have a huge population of little freak athletes and you can train however you want when you're a genetic freak and still set WRs.

[EasternHammer]

The Chinese tend to be short people. The taller athletes that they do have get channeled into other sports early, the same way the kids built for weightlifting in the lower classes get picked out. The guys that do end up as heavier class lifters tend to be lifters that are probably better suited to lower weight classes, but weren't as good as the top guys in those classes, and instead chose to move up instead of trying to compete with them. As such, their heavier classes are full of mediocre (relatively speaking) lifters who are probably better suited to being lighter. Look at the videos on youtube of the 94 and 105 classes at the Chinese nationals. The majority of the lifters look soft and/or out of shape. They look like they are at least a class too high. There are lifters in the 94 class which look like supers in terms of body composition. This is not a training methodology problem. Chinese heavyweights do not suck because of heavy pulling. Heavy pulling does not produce flabby 94s. It's a lack of talent problem. Their heavier classes are always full of their least talented lifters.

Since when is being short a disadvantage in weightlifting? Regarding the Chinese heavies, I just don't agree. China has plenty of lifters in these classes, they just aren't matching the standard of the lightweights. When I watched the 2012 Nationals, I saw very strong men who consistently pulled slowly off the floor, bent their arms in the pull, and often got pinned dead in the bottom of the squat. Strength is NOT the problem. They need more speed.

Regarding the talent pool question. In the last 10 years alone, Bulgaria produced 3 men who totaled 450 kg. or more, from a population of 10 million. China, with 1.5 BILLION, has produced 0. What's the deal?

[CHS55]

It stems from thinking you know better than the coaches who approve of pulls.

It's not like you're saying pulls never worked for you so you don't do them, no, you're saying they don't work in any and all cases; something you can't know.

I approve of pulls, not heavy pulling. There's a distinction that you can't seem to grasp.

Again, show me your lifts or the lifts of someone you have coached.

Why does anyone in this thread have to become a coach to prove you wrong? There are already coaches proving you wrong in other parts of the world. Oh but I forgot, we can completely disregard their success because they have a huge population of little freak athletes and you can train however you want when you're a genetic freak and still set WRs.

You're completely ignoring the fact that hundreds of thousands of these weightlifters were brought up and trained to lift weights. I don't wanna open a Pandora's box and mention something else, but the truth is the truth. Go ahead and become coaches and prove me wrong, the truth is other than YouTube videos and word of mouth, neither of you know what they really do. Produce training logs or something to base it off of, none of you have done so. This is my last post in this topic because from what I conclude, you two are a couple of people who lift occasionally, read up on forums, watch YouTube videos, and somehow are now weightlifting gurus.

[ledinred2]

Whatever, guy. I never said I was some kind of guru. You are the one claiming to be the expert by proclaiming that an element of training doesn't work and is flat-out ineffective in all circumstances. I personally know people who have trained in China and have a pretty good idea of what they do over there. South Korea too. You've talked to some people, I've talked to some people...you've read some book, I've read some books...yet you know better than me and I have to become a coach to prove you wrong. Okay, sure. Whoever you are, weightlifting expert, at least post under your real name the next time you go with this know-it-all appeal to authority crap, as it may give you a twinge more credibility (though it won't make your arguments any less fallacious.)

[ledinred2]

Since when is being short a disadvantage in weightlifting? Regarding the Chinese heavies, I just don't agree. China has plenty of lifters in these classes, they just aren't matching the standard of the lightweights. When I watched the 2012 Nationals, I saw very strong men who consistently pulled slowly off the floor, bent their arms in the pull, and often got pinned dead in the bottom of the squat. Strength is NOT the problem. They need more speed.

Regarding the talent pool question. In the last 10 years alone, Bulgaria produced 3 men who totaled 450 kg. or more, from a population of 10 million. China, with 1.5 BILLION, has produced 0. What's the deal?

As I said before, I agree that the heavier lifters have a speed problem. I see that as being just one of their issues though. To me, many of them just look ill-suited to those classes and clearly less talented than the smaller lifters. Does their programming need to be modified/improved for those heavier lifters? Yeah, probably. Is doing heavy pulls the root problem? Unlikely.

Yes, being short is an advantage...to an extent. If you don't have the frame for a particular weight class, then you're not going to do well. You're never going to see any good 5'5" supers.

Regarding your question about talent pool...again, I don't see what that has to do with the topic at hand. China do not seem particularly concerned with producing a good heavyweight male lifter. The fact that they have a huge population doesn't really mean anything. Their taller athletes get placed into other sports. They have however produced the best female super ever - a fact which everyone seems to ignore. And she weighs a lot more than 77kg.

[scarboro]

As I said before, I agree that the heavier lifters have a speed problem. I see that as being just one of their issues though. To me, many of them just look ill-suited to those classes and clearly less talented than the smaller lifters. Does their programming need to be modified/improved for those heavier lifters? Yeah, probably. Is doing heavy pulls the root problem? Unlikely.

Yes, being short is an advantage...to an extent. If you don't have the frame for a particular weight class, then you're not going to do well. You're never going to see any good 5'5" supers.

If we talk about potential talent pool including anatomy than the USA has probably 90% (exaggeration) of the most naturally gifted SHW lifters. Dime a dozen 18-19 yo football players power cleaning 200kg+.

[EasternHammer]

As I said before, I agree that the heavier lifters have a speed problem. I see that as being just one of their issues though. To me, many of them just look ill-suited to those classes and clearly less talented than the smaller lifters. Does their programming need to be modified/improved for those heavier lifters? Yeah, probably. Is doing heavy pulls the root problem? Unlikely.

Yes, being short is an advantage...to an extent. If you don't have the frame for a particular weight class, then you're not going to do well. You're never going to see any good 5'5" supers.

Regarding your question about talent pool...again, I don't see what that has to do with the topic at hand. China do not seem particularly

concerned with producing a good heavyweight male lifter. The fact that they have a huge population doesn't really mean anything. Their taller athletes get placed into other sports. They have however produced the best female super ever - a fact which everyone seems to ignore. And she weighs a lot more than 77kg.

I think we are in agreement, overall. I appreciate your sincere response. Thank you. While we are on the subject, the last part of your post is interesting. How can we explain the great success of China in women's heavies compared to the men? What factors are contributing to the difference?

[ledinred2]

I think we are in agreement, overall. I appreciate your sincere response. Thank you. While we are on the subject, the last part of your post is interesting. How can we explain the great success of China in women's heavies compared to the men? What factors are contributing to the difference?

No problem. I'm actually curious about this. Everyone always points out how the Chinese have no success with heavyweight men yet they are doing pretty well on the women's side. We could also look at the South Koreans who have produced Jang Mi Ran. (Granted, they have produced better heavyweight men than the Chinese, but they also tend to be taller people than the Chinese.) If misguided programming is the downfall of the heavyweight men, then surely this should be affecting lifters like Zhou Lulu just as much, no? She's not a small person. As I said before, I think there's a lack of talent on the men's side in the heavier classes, as well as a prevalence of lifters who moved up because they weren't competitive nationally at lower weight classes, and perhaps this is not the case for the women. There could be many things contributing though.

[EasternHammer]

No problem. I'm actually curious about this. Everyone always points out how the Chinese have no success with heavyweight men yet they are doing pretty well on the women's side. We could also look at the South Koreans who have produced Jang Mi Ran. (Granted, they have produced better heavyweight men than the Chinese, but they also tend to be taller people than the Chinese.) If misguided programming is the downfall of the heavyweight men, then surely this should be affecting lifters like Zhou Lulu just as much, no? She's not a small person. As I said before, I think there's a lack of talent on the men's side in the heavier classes, as well as a prevalence of lifters who moved up because they weren't competitive nationally at lower weight classes, and perhaps this is not the case for the women. There could be many things contributing though.

Honestly, I think this dilemna is the biggest mystery in weightlifting right now. And the longer the trend continues, the more interesting it becomes. I would advance the proposition that finding progressively heavier lifters is more and more difficult the larger they get. You would think, though, that China with its enormous population would be best suited to find suitable lifters in every weight class. Yet no 94s, 105s, only 1 super in recent times. Where are these guys? They have to exist somewhere in China. What are Chinese men weighing 90+ kilos doing? There's no American football to drain talent. They're too big for soccer. Maybe shot put/discus/hammer? I wish we knew.

[feces99]

Honestly, I think this dilemna is the biggest mystery in weightlifting right now. And the longer the trend continues, the more interesting it becomes. I would advance the proposition that finding progressively heavier lifters is more and more difficult the larger they get. You would think, though, that China with its enormous population would be best suited to find suitable lifters in every weight class. Yet no 94s, 105s, only 1 super in recent times. Where are these guys? They have to exist somewhere in China. What are Chinese men weighing 90+ kilos doing? There's no American football to drain talent. They're too big for soccer. Maybe shot put/discus/hammer? I wish we knew.

http://www.disabled-world.com/artman...ht-chart.shtml

also keep in mind that Chinese children aren't as well fed as other countries.

[matjusm]

Honestly, I think this dilemna is the biggest mystery in weightlifting right now. And the longer the trend continues, the more interesting it becomes. I would advance the proposition that finding progressively heavier lifters is more and more difficult the larger they get. You would think, though, that China with its enormous population would be best suited to find suitable lifters in every weight class. Yet no 94s, 105s, only 1 super in recent times. Where are these guys? They have to exist somewhere in China. What are Chinese men weighing 90+ kilos doing? There's no American football to drain talent. They're too big for soccer. Maybe shot put/discus/hammer? I wish we knew.

http://www.disabled-world.com/artman...ht-chart.shtml

also keep in mind that Chinese children aren't as well fed as other countries.

I think feces99 might have gotten to the root of the answer (or at least partially) here. Superheavyweights are taller and as that chart shows, East Asia isn't exactly known for its tall people.
I think this is further evidenced by the fact that although China is very dominant in several sports, its quite underrepresented in fields such as the throwing events of track and field where height is an advantage (and instead many of the top athletes come from traditionally "tall" countries).
Of course there are still tall people in China but the pool from which to choose good athletes is exponentially smaller for the SHW class than it is for the lighter ones.

[DaTruth1]

This thread is getting ridiculous.

[yummy22]

all those heavy pulls sure have been pointless for him

oh wait



he just posted a pr with 200kg snatch easy

regarding his 180kg snatch it was done at 17 years old at a bodyweight of 103kg at the junior world championships. He is going to be the next best shw for russia.

[WHT_LIGHTNING]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Although **** seems political over there, if Rigert or somebody else doesn't like him, he could never see the international stage for Russia



I don't understand the 110% rule at all

For an elite lifter, sure, I get it. What about for an up and coming lifter? Or a beginner? Intermediate? It just doesn't make sense to me....

1 size does not fit all

[quetzalCAN]

Check the low starting position of the hips. That was clearly a clean pull.





Maybe someone should tell the Chinese that lots of heavy pulling from the floor slows lifters down and is detrimental to the snatch and the clean. Maybe then they'll start winning some medals.

When you can do a clean pull that fast, it isn't heavy >_>

[CHS55]

Seems like I got trolled, oops

[GoJu]

Seems like I got trolled, oops

That was from a few years ago, horrible horrible flexibility back then; I'm still right and you're still wrong btw.

The guys in the R/P are better arguers than you, I can do this all day.

[CHS55]

That was from a few years ago, horrible horrible flexibility back then; I'm still right and you're still wrong btw.

The guys in the R/P are better arguers than you, I can do this all day.

Then show us your current lifts =]