Keto Diet Questions

[Nick666]

That's what I do and I've had good results so far.

I spread my gatorade before, during and after my w/o.

Some say dextrose is better than gatorade because gatorade contains fructose. But I don't think it makes much difference personnaly, given the small quantities that you take.

[SycoraX]

So you just drink some gatorade powder with water before, then drink some with water during and mix in some with protein shake after workout?

Sounds good, but those must be some very small amounts.

[Nick666]

I take about 20g before w/o with 25g whey. That's to make sure I have glycogen in time for my workout.

I take about 20g during my w/o, then 20g post-w/o with 20g of whey.

I do a TKD, so I must take carbs before working out. For a CKD, it might not be necessary.

[SycoraX]

Originally posted by Nick666
I take about 20g before w/o with 25g whey. That's to make sure I have glycogen in time for my workout.

I take about 20g during my w/o, then 20g post-w/o with 20g of whey.

I do a TKD, so I must take carbs before working out. For a CKD, it might not be necessary.

What's TKD and how's it different from CKD?

[Nick666]

TKD means Targeted Keto Diet. The difference is that you don't reload every week. You take fast carbs around your w/o to get your glycogen.

[Original Poster]

a good read..........it will answer alot of questions.

http://low-carb.org/faq/

[SycoraX]

Originally posted by Chi_town
a good read..........it will answer alot of questions.

http://low-carb.org/faq/

Thanks. I read the site, but I missed the CKD and TKD in the terms section. Now I see them... duhh...

One more question though...

How long should I wait before hitting the weights or cardio after my last meal? On CKD that is...

[vapour]

this may be a really stupid question and i know everyone hates alchohol but i do drink on a friday and saturday night usuall jus pints of beer - say 8 - 10 a night.
If a was on a keto diet and my carb up was from midday friday until saturday evening would this drinking be acceptable or not?

[Timber]

Originally posted by vapour
this may be a really stupid question and i know everyone hates alchohol but i do drink on a friday and saturday night usuall jus pints of beer - say 8 - 10 a night.
If a was on a keto diet and my carb up was from midday friday until saturday evening would this drinking be acceptable or not?

It's up to you...drinking inhibits fatloss, you have to make a choice.

If I drink it will only be on a carbup day and I try to only have 1-3, usually vodka mixed with diet cola.

[vapour]

doh, but if i only drink 1 -3 i wont get drunk and then i won't have any excuse for pulling a big fat chick!
seriously though will the drinking knock me out of ketosis?

[Timber]

Originally posted by vapour
doh, but if i only drink 1 -3 i wont get drunk and then i won't have any excuse for pulling a big fat chick!
seriously though will the drinking knock me out of ketosis?

Are you serious about your diet?

Don't drink while IN ketosis, first of all if you drank beer you'd get knocked out. If you drank spirits like vodka or gin, you wouldn't but your body processes alchahol differently while in ketosis, and makes you feel like ****. Only drink on your carbup day if you do at all.

You gotta make sacrifices, and if you're going to get drunk ONLY do it on carbup.

[Fozzy]

Originally posted by vapour
this may be a really stupid question and i know everyone hates alchohol but i do drink on a friday and saturday night usuall jus pints of beer - say 8 - 10 a night.
If a was on a keto diet and my carb up was from midday friday until saturday evening would this drinking be acceptable or not?

Personally I don't touch alcahol, however, in the Keto diet every persons body reacts differently to everything. There's not one person that has the same experience as the next in my opinion.

If you want this diet to work it takes discipline and just like any diet, while it's fun once you're in, it still takes discipline to stay in Ketosis. Drinking every Friday and Saturday night can only hurt the diet process. It typically takes me 4 to 5 days to get back into ketosis once i'm out and that's hard core low carb days, practically none to get there. You can always experiment with the diet, but just a few points of interest to keep in mind....

First you're gonna get kicked out of ketosis if you drink as heavy as you want to... So if it takes you anymore than 3 days to get back in ketosis after you drink on a Friday and Saturday you're only giving your body about 1 to 2 days a week of actual ketosis burn time which won't do you much good as the end result of your alcahol caloric intake will surely offset what you actually burn.

Secondly (and this point is disputed but it's worth keeping in mind) On a Ketosis diet you're building up keytones in your liver, if you're not consuming at least 1.5 gallons of water a day and flushing out your system, this can cause keytone buildup which some folks have difficulty processing the keytones through the liver. The reason this is important is you're basically (for lack of a better terminology) poisoning your liver on a day to day basis with keytones, it's great that you can flush it out with the water, but throwing in a few rounds of alcahol on the weekend can only add insult to injury and "COULD" cause for some damaging liver and health issues down the road.

I'm all for experimenting so go for it, check it out and see if it works for you, this diet doesn't have the same rhyme or reason for everyone across the board, for some it works, for others it doesn't, you'll have to find your niche in the diet and follow that line. Just be cognitive of the dangers and make sure you're getting your liver levels checked pretty regurlarly... High liver levels can be an issue down the road.

Either way it would be nice for you to report back to us and let us know how it went. Hope this helps!

-G

[Fatass]

Hey, I've heard a lot of conflicting things on how many carbs you should have a day on keto. Some people say you should keep it under 20 grams a day and then on here I see a lot of people saying that you should eat 50 a day PLUS a post workout shake with 30g of carbs....

Now, the question is really...let's say you have the 50g a day and then you don't see a trace reading on your ketostix....should you cut back some of those carbs or have faith that you're still in ketosis?

Can someone explain to me how your body stays in ketosis with the added carbs? My main concern is getting thrown out of ketosis and subsequently gaining fat because of the high fat percentage in the diet....Anyways....I know these questions probably sound stupid to the keto vets.....but any answers to these questions would be greatly appreciated!

[nimrod]

weighed myself 2day at the gym.. lost abt 11lbs since started keto 2wks ago. Can some1 please tell me if this is safe??? as i read fm somewhere else that it's dangerous to lose weight too fast!!! Also is COCA COLA LIGHT allowed in a keto diet?? saw d label says zero carbs!

[Original Poster]

Originally posted by Fatass
Hey, I've heard a lot of conflicting things on how many carbs you should have a day on keto. Some people say you should keep it under 20 grams a day and then on here I see a lot of people saying that you should eat 50 a day PLUS a post workout shake with 30g of carbs....

Now, the question is really...let's say you have the 50g a day and then you don't see a trace reading on your ketostix....should you cut back some of those carbs or have faith that you're still in ketosis?

Can someone explain to me how your body stays in ketosis with the added carbs? My main concern is getting thrown out of ketosis and subsequently gaining fat because of the high fat percentage in the diet....Anyways....I know these questions probably sound stupid to the keto vets.....but any answers to these questions would be greatly appreciated!

I'd shoot for 30g a day not counting PW shake. If your not showing on the stix (well you could still be in ketosis), but I would recommend to cut back on carbs...........some people have to go as low as 20 g a day to show on the stix. Try to keep all of your carbs from fibrous green veggies except PW carbs of course.

Your PW carbs need not be overdone (and stay away from fructose as it goes to replenishing liver glycogen first- not what you awnt). I' d start at 30 grams and adjust as needed. The way this works is that after a workout your muscles should be glycogen depleted the carbs in a PW shake will do two things.......1. create an insulin spike that will aid in pounding nutrients and amino's into the muscle........and 2. Supply needed glycogen to the muscles. This will increase the rate of protein synthesis and aid in recovery big time.

-- Chi

[Original Poster]

Originally posted by nimrod
weighed myself 2day at the gym.. lost abt 11lbs since started keto 2wks ago. Can some1 please tell me if this is safe??? as i read fm somewhere else that it's dangerous to lose weight too fast!!! Also is COCA COLA LIGHT allowed in a keto diet?? saw d label says zero carbs!

The first few weeks the majority of weight loss is from water.......this is normal and can vary from person to person.

[Fozzy]

I agree with Chi... but of course I do he's a pro.

I wouldn't worry to much about your first 2 weeks of loss. in 3 weeks time I lost about 11 lbs... but slowly started leveling off over time. I've been on the diet noow for about 6 months or so and have only lost 36lbs. As a matter of a fact the past few weeks have been rather disturbing cuz i've platued and have varried between 212 and 214 and can't break this cycle... but never fear if you get to this point, doesn't mean you're done, there is hope, just adjust your diet a bit... I had the same problem when i was at 218 and 221... I couldn't break the 218 and went for weeks and finally changed my ratios a bit and finally dropped that 6... Now i'm back again so i'm about to re-organize my diet again and change my ratios.

This diet is more mental than anything... Most diets are physically demanding but what I love about this diet is that all you have to do is eat right, whil I do exercise 4 days a week this diet will still produce results even without exercising. (Not recommended.

[Mummer43]

Ok, I'm 6'1" and 225 lbs. I don't know my bodyfat, but I'd guess it's around 15 or 16%.

I plan on starting this diet on Monday and I need some help to get it going.

Breakfast: 3 eggs, 2 slices of cheese and 3 slices of bacon or Canadia bacon.

Snack: string cheese or lunch meat and cheese. I'm not sure how much, help!

Lunch: grilled chicken salad wth blue cheese, chicken ceasar salad or similar meal.

Snack: String cheese, nuts or lunch meat/cheese. Need help with the amounts.

Dinner: Steak, pork or chicken and a salad with full fat dressing.

I guess I need a post workout shake, but I'm really not sure what I should take. I have some EAS simply protein left. Should I just take that with water?

Any help would be greatly appreciated!!

[Original Poster]

Originally posted by Mummer43
I guess I need a post workout shake, but I'm really not sure what I should take. I have some EAS simply protein left. Should I just take that with water?

Any help would be greatly appreciated!!

I just did a pretty comprehensive post on PW nutrution in the seniors keto thread........

Here is the link to the page.....

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...&pagenumber=42

better yet let me copy it over to here.......for all to enjoy.

[Original Poster]

Let's look at 4 different PW shakes. Regardless if one is cutting or bulking or maintaining.

First off the enzymes LPL and HSL come into play here, along with insulin and glucose.

Let's look at a few explanations of some of these things........

Fat Breakdown and Utilization:
The good news is that, fat can be broken down and utilized. Yes, it's a scientific fact that your fat cells can give up their stores for use as fuel. So, let's explore this process of lipolysis or "fat-breakdown" and its opposite, lipogenesis or "fat-creation".

Insulin and glucagon have opposing effects on fat in the body, and that includes stored fat, dietary fat, or fat made in the liver or in the fat cells (adipose tissue). Most hormones work by plugging into receptors on the surface of your cells, and cause a secondary messenger to be created inside the cell, which will then convey the signal to the appropriate mechanism inside. Often these secondary messengers are enzymes which are a type of protein. Now, in the case of insulin and glucagon, the former, (insulin) stimulates adipose tissue (fat cells) to release the enzyme called Lipoprotein Lipase (LPL) which transports fatty acids into the fat cell and keeps them there. This enzyme is highly sensitive to variations in the metabolic state, being rapidly increased by a high level of plasma glucose. On the other hand, LPL's activity is
decreased when plasma insulin is low, as in diabetes, or a calorie restricted diet, and most importantly in our case, on a low carbohydrate diet. On the other hand, there is another enzyme, Hormone-Sensitive Lipase (HSL) which does just the opposite, by releasing fatty acids from adipose tissue into the blood so that they can be transported to other cells, and burned as fuel. In fact, fat is the preferred fuel of our mitochondria, the tiny furnaces, so to speak, of every cell in you body. HSL's activity is increased when plasma glucagon is high and insulin is low.

also..........

Coordinated regulation of hormone-sensitive lipase and lipoprotein lipase in human adipose tissue in vivo:
implications for the control of fat storage and fat mobilization.

Frayn KN, Coppack SW, Fielding BA, Humphreys SM.

Oxford Lipid Metabolism Group, Nuffield Department of Clinical Medicine, Radcliffe Infirmary, UK.

The enzymes lipoprotein lipase (LPL, EC 3.1.1.34) and hormone-sensitive lipase (HSL, EC 3.1.1.3) apparently catalyze opposing functions in white adipose tissue: the former is concerned with fat storage, the latter with fat mobilization. We have studied their regulation in vivo in normal subjects in the postabsorptive state and after eating meals of different compositions, by measurement of arteriovenous concentration differences for triacylglycerol, non-esterified fatty acids and glycerol across a subcutaneous adipose depot. The two enzymes are regulated in a broadly reciprocal manner: in the overnight-fasted state, HSL is more active, but after a meal HSL is suppressed whilst LPL is activated.
The movement of fatty acids in and out of adipose tissue appears to be driven by concentration gradients generated by regulation of these two enzymes, and also by activation, in the postprandial period, of the process of fatty acid esterification. The results show some interesting and perhaps unexpected features of metabolic regulation. Of the fatty acids generated by the action of LPL on circulating TAG, a large proportion is released directly into the venous plasma:close to 100% in the overnight-fasted state, and 50% or more at the peak of LPL action after a meal, making what appear reasonable assumptions. We suggest that this apparent 'inefficiency' of fat storage reflects the energetic
cost of maintaining precise control over such a fundamental process. Although LPL is usually thought of as the enzyme
regulating fat deposition, in fact the fatty acids and glycerol it releases from circulating TAG represent a substantial proportion of those released from adipose tissue, especially in the postprandial state. In addition, although HSL is considered the enzyme responsible for fat mobilization, suppression of its activity is essential to normal regulation of fat deposition. Thus, fat storage and fat mobilization during normal daily life are controlled by coordinated regulation of a number of enzymatic processes in white adipose tissue.

and........

Lipoprotein lipase and the disposition of dietary fatty acids.

Fielding BA, Frayn KN.

Oxford Lipid Metabolism Group, Nuffield Department of Clinical Medicine, Radcliffe Infirmary, UK.

Lipoprotein lipase (EC 3.1.1.34; LPL) is a key enzyme regulating the disposal of lipid fuels in the body. It is expressed in a number of peripheral tissues including adipose tissue, skeletal and cardiac muscle and mammary gland. Its role is to hydrolyse triacylglycerol (TG) circulating in the TG-rich lipoprotein particles in order to deliver fatty acids to the tissue. It appears to act preferentially on chylomicron-TG, and therefore may play a particularly important role in regulating the disposition of dietary fatty acids. LPL activity is regulated according to nutritional
state in a tissue-specific manner according to the needs of the tissue for fatty acids. For instance, it is highly active in lactating mammary gland; in white adipose tissue it is activated in the fed state and suppressed during fasting, whereas the reverse is true in muscle. Such observations have led to the view of LPL as a metabolic gatekeeper, especially for dietary fatty acids. However, closer inspection of its action in white adipose tissue reveals that this picture is only partially true. Normal fat deposition in adipose tissue can occur in the complete absence of LPL, and conversely, if LPL activity is increased by pharmacological means, increased
fat storage does not necessarily follow. LPL appears to act as one member of a series of metabolic steps which are regulated in a highly coordinated manner. In white adipose tissue, it is clear that there is a major locus of control of fatty acid disposition downstream from LPL. This involves regulation of the pathway of fatty acid uptake and esterification, and appears to be regulated by a number of factors including insulin, acylation-stimulating protein and possibly leptin.

So we can say the following about LPL and HSL:
when LPL is high, storeage occurs (and growth usually) when HSL is high, (insulin is low) fat is
release from adipose cells. Agreed ?


If we opt for a PW shake that consists of only proteins (whey, ect)

What takes place............well the proteins will be available for protein synthesis.......
and may even illicit an insulin responce.....the main question so far is .....

Is the insulin response sufficient to help drive the nutritents into the muscle ?
Since no Carbs have been ingested.....LPL and insulin will remain lower and HSL will be at much higher levels.

What does this mean......well since...low insulin (and if it is just from the protein, LPL will be at raised
levels also) is present......then probably not much as far as fat storage goes. See, if LPL and insulin levels
are Low...........but no FFA's are available........the body will turn to amino acids (muscle) next.
This is not good!

What about recovery ? Well that is the hole in a protein only shake, as well as the utilization of protein and
possibility of more muscle loss.

Also, protein synthesis will continue and overall amounts will not be limited really by the lack of carbs.........
but without the presence of those carbs....a Quick recovery and Glycogen replenishment will occure at a
much much slower rate as well.

Did we lose fat......well probably..but we also most likely lost some muscle also.


Now what happens if we add fat to that protein only PW?
Well it actually helps continue fat burn........but at the expense still of muscle recovery as we have not
ingested and carbs.

Because LPL is reduced (no insulin) and HSL is high.......when HSL is high, (insulin is low) fat is
release from adipose cells. And........FFA's would be oxidized for fuel rather than aminos. (sparing muscle)
Good thing right ? Well it is a good thing for fatloss........but not for recovery and glycogen replenishment.
This too me is still a big hole in fats in a PW shake. The rate of protein absorbtion will be slowed significantly
and glycogen replenishment will take much longer. Also with in the absence of larger amounts of insulin..there
is some question as to the effective drive of the amino's and nutrients into the muscle. Again, protein synthesis
will continue and overall amounts will not be limited really by the lack of carbs.........
but without the presence of those carbs....a Quick recovery. Glycogen replenishment will occure at a
much much slower rate.

You increase the chance of stored aminos to be used as well, plus you want muscle glyocgen to replenish at some
point because that increased leptin allowing for better fat burning. Sort of a catch 22 ..No ?

Even when cutting....Not the best option.


How about if we go with carbs, fat and protein?
Well this is the sure fire way to gain fat.

When insulin and LPL is high but circulating FFA's are low, glucose is used for glycogen replenishment first,
adipose storage second. This is not fully the case as the fat will cause a much higher amoutn of FFA's.
When insulin is high, LPL is high therefore increased storage of fatty acids into fat cells is increased.
We gain fat !

The worst option for all the reasons........I am sure we all agree on this ?


Part 2 to follow.........LOL

[Original Poster]

what about if we go with carbs and protein only ?
Well with this choice........LPL and insulin is high, and now HSL lowers (yes fat burn goes to a trickle if not a halt)
What does this do ? It replenishes glycogen and pounds the aminos into the muscles....increases the rate of
protein synthesis, which equates to a faster recovery.


increased glyocgen equates to increased cell volume which increases leptin which triggers the fed state,
which equates to increased recovery too. But since nutrient uptake is highest post wokrout, ciriculting
glucose go towards muscle glyocogen and FFA's are still used as fuel and therefore HSL will still release
fatty acids from adipose cells. Sort of a Paradox really

When insulin and LPL is high but circulating FFA's are low, glucose is used for glycogen replenishment first,
adipose storage second. A good thing.......helps to speed recovery.

BEST CHOICE BY FAR !




Now for the reasons outlined with the PW shake consisting of fat, protein and carbs......I would not
do a higher fat carb-up. Fat gain would be almost certain...especially in a fed state.

[Fozzy]

Originally posted by Mummer43
Ok, I'm 6'1" and 225 lbs. I don't know my bodyfat, but I'd guess it's around 15 or 16%.

I plan on starting this diet on Monday and I need some help to get it going.

Breakfast: 3 eggs, 2 slices of cheese and 3 slices of bacon or Canadia bacon.

Snack: string cheese or lunch meat and cheese. I'm not sure how much, help!

Lunch: grilled chicken salad wth blue cheese, chicken ceasar salad or similar meal.

Snack: String cheese, nuts or lunch meat/cheese. Need help with the amounts.

Dinner: Steak, pork or chicken and a salad with full fat dressing.

I guess I need a post workout shake, but I'm really not sure what I should take. I have some EAS simply protein left. Should I just take that with water?

Any help would be greatly appreciated!!

You'll get a ton of suggestion from pros that are alot more effecient in the Ketosis arena than I, however, i've been on the diet for just over 6 months or so now and wanted to tell you a few things just off the top of my head... Some do's and don'ts.

don't focus much on lunch meat and things of that nature. While it's meat it's also processed and typically it's carb count is higher than your average deli variety. you'll wanna verify your carb count on the processed meats and cheeses just to be on the safe side.

Protein shakes are great. (I'm still waiting to hear from pro on whether or not it is best to take the shake before or after your workout) I started on a basic GNC Protein Whey (Vanilla) flavored tub, 1.5 scoops before post workout mixed with water and 8oz of grape juice (Pure Grape juice) none of the preservative stuff...

I recently switched to something new that GNC started carrying, it's called (I believe) extreme whey... It's got double the amount of protein per serving... The only problem is the servings are twice as much so you go through them faster... I got the chocolate flavor and take it from me, chocolate is a hole lot beter than vanilla, don't care what the chick or the guy at the store tells ya.

In the regular Protein Whey tub there is only 20g protein per serving so I consumed 1.5 servings so I got 30g post protein in my shake as well as all the other vitamins...

This new 'extreme whey' has 40g protein per serving, the same amount of carbs as the regular whey and it's got some other goodies added.

If you're gonna start out this way teh best bang for your buck is probably the extreme whey shake.

The other thing I wanted to tell you, not sure if you're wanting to loose weight, tone or build mass but don't get discouraged... I went so long trying to loose weight and would creep down slowly and I got so sick of working out so hard and being so disciplined on this diet and only loosing about 2 or 3 lbs a week. then I realized that I had more definition in my legs, body, shoulders neck and chest... While i'm slowly loosing weight i'm also slowly gaining lean muscle and it's cutting away beautifully... It took me about 3 months to finally visually see change... and it makes all the woes of the diet go away. You've chosen a good diet to jump on with... Good luck!!!!

Just quickly I wanted to give you a typical daily diet of my own...

Meal1: 2 eggs scrambled put on 2 pieces of low carb (Natures Own) bread w/Mayo

Meal2: 3 or 4 Hot Dogs w/Mustard

Meal3: Peanuts, or half a bag of Pork Rinds (I'm to busy during the day to cook and pre-make my meals)

Meal4: Protein Shake and Cheese

Meal5: 3 hamburgers w/cheese no bread cooked on the Foreman with the Low Carb (Atkins) Ketchup (tastes more like cocktail sauce than ketchup but I can't stand to eat a burger dry)

Meal6: small handfull of peanuts or almonds

And of course 1.5 gallons of watter distributed throughout the day. Every once in a while i'll get the sugar urge so I always buy a big pack of sugarfree popsicles they only have like 2 carbs so you can sneak one in if a sugar attack comes up.

It's not a glamorous day of eating, but it's a low maintenance, high impact meal nontheless.

[Mummer43]

Thanks for the input Fozzy, I really appreciate it!

My main goal with this diet is to shed bodyfat... I know my abs are underneath there somewhere!

I've never been over weight and I've always been in good shape, but I just want to see if I can get ripped and fromall the reading I've done, this diet is a good way to achieve that.

I'm curently in the process of putting a menu together and I've been using www.fitday.com, which has been really helpful. Hopefully I can put a good diet together and achieve some results.

I'll keep everyone posted. By the way, my diet starts on Monday, 01/21/04.

[SycoraX]

I was wondering... Can a carb-up end during mid-day or is it necessary to wait for the day to end before going back to keto diet?

Let's say, I'll have some pancakes for breakfast, maybe some brown rice and chicken for lunch, and then continue with the high fat diet for dinner? Is that possible?

[Fozzy]

It's possible, but probably not recommended, it would depend on your body, ratios and routine... Remember you want to replace your Carb intake with your Fat intake during your carb up... It's best to stay on a 24 to 36 hour carb up day (from what most people do) and then come out of it... Keep those fat levels down, otherwise you'll end up stacking on what you just lost the week prior.

[SycoraX]

Thanks for reply. I decided to wait till the next day before continuing with keto.

[migizi]

I would use Whey only post workout,,when I started Keto back in Nov. I relied on Whey to keep my protein number up,,,I was using isopure (0 carbs) and keeping my carbs around 40-50,,,checked ketostix for 2 weeks nada,,,,I listed all my foods another week and I had the isopure as the only suspect on the list,,,so I cut it out and 2 days after I was in Moderate levels of ketosis,,,when reading the stickies,,,it says that whey invokes a slight insulin spike thus trowing me out of keto,,,so I took the advice and took it only Post WO...I am still in keto by taking then only...If you have to supplement,,,use a Casien of some sort. so it synthesizes slower.

[nimrod]

i dun understand Y can't low carb Whey Protein b used daily?

[migizi]

Whey is a fast digesting protein,,,in so much that it causes an insulin spike,,,take whey POST WO ONLY!!!! it's in a lot of other threads too,,,,that's how I learned about whey and keto. Get a Micellar (sp?) to supplement if you must,,but protein has always been recommended to me to come from whole foods.

[Ripped2shreds]

Sorry if this has already been covered, but when would you introduce a 'carb up day' in a keto planed for a month. Once a week? Should I take in low or high GI carbs? Cheers guys.