***The Official Atheist and Christian Friendly Discussion***

[Medtreker]

Guilty again. That's the analytical side of me. If you asked me the temperature outside I would tell you what the thermometer reads, but maybe you would prefer just to know it's hot.
What you have said here lately is very true. Christianity is much deeper than just quoting or knowing the Bible. It is a personal relationship with the Son of God. That is what 2nd has been saying. It isn't just knowing and following a bunch of rules. Its trusting the Creator of the universe to always do what's right for you. Its believing even in times when what you see doesn't look like what you want.
But again I'm analytical. You aren't here to be converted, so I give you quotes from the Bible to show you what God's Word says about what is being discussed.

OK. It is a personal relationship with the Son of God. Let's talk about that. It would seem to imply a two way relationship, it being personal. However, from what I have experienced, it's entirely one way. To the degree, I believe, having a relationship essentially with yourself. What I mean is, no one really sits down at the dinner table with the SoG. They may say he's present, that they can feel and know his presence, but everyone else is looking around saying "Where?" I myself have never met him. I don't know of any photographs of him, I mean, everyone has a cell phone camera now. Not joking, there are no captured images. I am left with smeone "just claiming" to have this relationship. But, no one can validate it. Again, it's faith. Define it in religous terms, or secular terms. In secular terms it's the belief in that which can not be proven. So, how do you even prove that your half of this personal relation ship with the SoG is real, even your half?

[Medtreker]

Oh, not so much from New Yawk... from Lawg Eye Lan. The original Burbs! Stay clear of the inbreds.

[Brackneyc]

OK. It is a personal relationship with the Son of God. Let's talk about that. It would seem to imply a two way relationship, it being personal. However, from what I have experienced, it's entirely one way. To the degree, I believe, having a relationship essentially with yourself. What I mean is, no one really sits down at the dinner table with the SoG. They may say he's present, that they can feel and know his presence, but everyone else is looking around saying "Where?" I myself have never met him. I don't know of any photographs of him, I mean, everyone has a cell phone camera now. Not joking, there are no captured images. I am left with smeone "just claiming" to have this relationship. But, no one can validate it. Again, it's faith. Define it in religous terms, or secular terms. In secular terms it's the belief in that which can not be proven. So, how do you even prove that your half of this personal relation ship with the SoG is real, even your half?

I could show you a picture of God. Would that convince you, or anyone else? My guess is that you would need more. If I introduced you to him, my guess is you would still need more. If you somehow did "hear" him, you'd assume you were crazy. See, you have made up your mind imo.

Funny thing in life...people see what they want to see. You choose not to see God. With that choice, you likely never will.

That's ok, just don't crap on those who see life differently than you. FWIW, consistently coming back to the same requirement of "proof" is the same as crapping on someone. There will be no pics, no booming voices and perhaps no tangible signs. Faith.

[2nd_chance]

OK. It is a personal relationship with the Son of God. Let's talk about that. It would seem to imply a two way relationship, it being personal. However, from what I have experienced, it's entirely one way. To the degree, I believe, having a relationship essentially with yourself. What I mean is, no one really sits down at the dinner table with the SoG. They may say he's present, that they can feel and know his presence, but everyone else is looking around saying "Where?" I myself have never met him. I don't know of any photographs of him, I mean, everyone has a cell phone camera now. Not joking, there are no captured images. I am left with smeone "just claiming" to have this relationship. But, no one can validate it. Again, it's faith. Define it in religous terms, or secular terms. In secular terms it's the belief in that which can not be proven. So, how do you even prove that your half of this personal relation ship with the SoG is real, even your half?

You are like a blind man who says, "look, there is nothing to see."

[2nd_chance]

I think the question should be whether a belief is dangerous or not. Like, when I read in the NT about Jesus coming back with a sword, not peace, that he will turn family members against each other and everyone must love him the most, more than they love their families, this is a dangerous message IMO. It reminds me of Nazi Germany and how children were sent to the training camps and told to place a higher value on Nazism than their own families.

Did you just call Jesus a Nazi? Really?

I'd really like an answer to this question. This is the kind of hate statement that Christians are often accused of. You are telling me that since I put God first, then family, then vocation that I am a danger and that I am like a nazi. Your viewpoints are astounding.

[chickeneater]

I think the question should be whether a belief is dangerous or not. Like, when I read in the NT about Jesus coming back with a sword, not peace, that he will turn family members against each other and everyone must love him the most, more than they love their families, this is a dangerous message IMO. It reminds me of Nazi Germany and how children were sent to the training camps and told to place a higher value on Nazism than their own families.

Did you just call Jesus a Nazi? Really?

I'll let him clarify his own post. But the nazi's were brainwashed we can all agree right?

When I think of the scientists that were marched naked down the streets by Christians and with iron clamps holding their mouths tightly shut with a metal spike thru their tounge and then burned at the stake for thier refusal to retract thier findings that the earth orbited the sun and not the other way around I have to desuct that the same human phenomena that motivated the nazis centuries later was the same influence the Christians were under. The Hitler would've been the high priest/bishop/pope whatever that placed the orders.

For the record some were boiled in oil. Obviously the Christians have evolved since then. I can only assume they evolve by cherry picking what works for them over time. A saner approach IMHO then going strictly by the book.

[Medtreker]

You are like a blind man who says, "look, there is nothing to see."

Hhhhhh...haven't seen, heard, smealled, tasted or felt.

There, now I'm like a vegitable. Satisfied?

[DaddyJax]

I'll let him clarify his own post. But the nazi's were brainwashed we can all agree right?

When I think of the scientists that were marched naked down the streets by Christians and with iron clamps holding their mouths tightly shut with a metal spike thru their tounge and then burned at the stake for thier refusal to retract thier findings that the earth orbited the sun and not the other way around I have to desuct that the same human phenomena that motivated the nazis centuries later was the same influence the Christians were under. The Hitler would've been the high priest/bishop/pope whatever that placed the orders.

For the record some were boiled in oil. Obviously the Christians have evolved since then. I can only assume they evolve by cherry picking what works for them over time. A saner approach IMHO then going strictly by the book.

True , and as the times continue to change less and less of the book will be followed by less and less people.

I have new churches all around me who are inviting all walks of life, denominations and sexual orientations to join and worship. It makes me conflicted by wanting to laugh at the hypocrisy and desperation and glad at the same time for the people who open the churches to basically say that the old ways were wrong to persecute people for being different.

[Medtreker]

True , and as the times continue to change less and less of the book will be followed by less and less people.

I have new churches all around me who are inviting all walks of life, denominations and sexual orientations to join and worship. It makes me conflicted by wanting to laugh at the hypocrisy and desperation and glad at the same time for the people who open the churches to basically say that the old ways were wrong to persecute people for being different.

This is a good post.

It brings up another point in my mind, the evolution of christianity. I am most likely more familiar with the evolution of the catholic church personally.

However, with he argument on eveolution vs creationisim, the denial of evolution of man(and of all life too I figure??), we do see and must accept social/cultural/religous evolution, mustn't we?

[Brackneyc]

. I can only assume they evolve by cherry picking what works for them over time. A saner approach IMHO then going strictly by the book.

Situational ethics is the the human way.

[DaddyJax]

This is a good post.

It brings up another point in my mind, the evolution of christianity. I am most likely more familiar with the evolution of the catholic church personally.

However, with he argument on eveolution vs creationisim, the denial of evolution of man(and of all life too I figure??), we do see and must accept social/cultural/religous evolution, mustn't we?

Thats the only way to survive as long as you can.

The Catholic church is a whoooole different ball game for me. If a business like Chick Fil A can suffer, the Catholic church should be held accountable for the atrocities that they committed, but thats for a different discussion.

[2nd_chance]

Hhhhhh...haven't seen, heard, smealled, tasted or felt.

There, now I'm like a vegitable. Satisfied?

Yes... also like a deaf man saying nothing to hear and one with no sense of smell saying nothing to smell.

[Medtreker]

Yes... also like a deaf man saying nothing to hear and one with no sense of smell saying nothing to smell.

2-C, do you think atheists are stupid?

[Medtreker]

Tag. You're It.

[Medtreker]

Thats the only way to survive as long as you can.

The Catholic church is a whoooole different ball game for me. If a business like Chick Fil A can suffer, the Catholic church should be held accountable for the atrocities that they committed, but thats for a different discussion.

Why not discuss it here. Basically the church is like a business. AndI'm bettin the atrocities (we talking child molestation here, right) happen in all corners of the Earth. Look at Penn State! It's the same exact thing as with priests in the church. Only problem for the church is, how the media latched onto it. Round here, many catholic schools closing. Not even sure How I feel about ths....

[DaddyJax]

What do Christians Creationist think when they go to a museum with dinosaur skeletons? Nothing to see, smell, taste or touch?

[2nd_chance]

2-C, do you think atheists are stupid?

Of course not. Many times it is their intelligence that keeps them from having faith. They cannot comprehend that there is something more than they can calculate in their minds. By that, I am also not implying that those with faith have less intelligence. I am simply stating that to find God, one will not do so with even the highest level of intelligence. Faith is something that originates in the heart of man. Of course, you may also not believe that there is such a "heart" since you cannot see it of find it on an x-ray.

[2nd_chance]

What do Christians Creationist think when they go to a museum with dinosaur skeletons? Nothing to see, smell, taste or touch?

I wouldn't know... I've never been to one (srs)

[Medtreker]

When I went to catholic grade school, the principal was a short little nun, nick named The Cat. You could hear her coming (Oh damn...I can HEAR!!...inside jokes are now alowed on this thread, it has taken on a life of it's own...it has EVOLVED)...hear her coming from all the way down the hall cause her heals made a distinct clicking. I used to think that's why they called her The Cat.... As a 7 y/o 2nd grader, she was terrifying. Once when our regular teacher was out, the class was alone for a short while. There were nearly 50 kids per class then. I must have been up front, carrying on as a 7 y/o will do when adults leave the room...my back to the front door. I didn't know, but The Cat had walked in! Couldn't hear her clickng while making all that noise ourselves!!

I turn around and look....just up a degree...she Was a Tiny little Nun, slight mustash, and a contant "prune" face she made with her mouth, she always looked totally discusted. Now, she looked enraged, she pulles back and Smacks meright across the face. I swear, a little pee squirted outta me before I clenched my bladder shut.

Well, long story, many years later I meet a guy 2 years my senior at AA. (See what those catholics and their higher education did to me, turned me into adrunkard! joking, well, it's my post...) Turns out this guy went to the same catholic school. And, I couldn't believe this when he told me, I almost died, she smacked him too. But his story was worse. Pretty much like mine, cept he describes her as taking a full reach all the back and full force whacking him across the face. He was a bit of a troubled kid, eventually went on ridilin(sp?) after that school kicked him out. So, I guess she knew him as a real trouble maker and really hauled off nd bealted him.

Well, his bladder had a much worse reaction than mine. Hel et loose fully and totally soaked himself in front of entir class. At like 8 years old. Total humiliation. He heald a deep hatred for that nun for many, many years untill he learned how e could get past that.

..............................

That's one, lttle tiny itty bitty story of child abuse by catholic clergy in charge of children. I was luck, that's the worst that I experienced. I an't even comprehend experiencing what other children have, that we read about in the papers. God aint saving anyone. It's just us. Just us my friends.

[Medtreker]

Of course not. Many times it is their intelligence that keeps them from having faith. They cannot comprehend that there is something more than they can calculate in their minds. By that, I am also not implying that those with faith have less intelligence. I am simply stating that to find God, one will not do so with even the highest level of intelligence. Faith is something that originates in the heart of man. Of course, you may also not believe that there is such a "heart" since you cannot see it of find it on an x-ray.

Oh My! I think you just proved my point. Hey, you may be coming around after all!

[bakedNOTfried]

how odd

if someone would just deny that there will be blinding flashes of light and a feeling of being struck by lightning through their central nervous system as well, then i will be able to rest easy

some may also deny experiencing a sensation like their vertebrae are being separated with a sharp instrument

'faith without acts is dead'
thank you Jesus
(i saved up for this)

[Medtreker]

how odd

if someone would just deny that there will be blinding flashes of light and a feeling of being struck by lightning through their central nervous system as well, then i will be able to rest easy

some may also deny experiencing a sensation like their vertebrae are being separated with a sharp instrument

'faith without acts is dead'
thank you Jesus
(i saved up for this)

wh-aaaaaaatt??

[2nd_chance]

Oh My! I think you just proved my point. Hey, you may be coming around after all!

I'm sure there are many points that we never disagreed upon to begin with.

[Medtreker]

Well, since he got us on the topic of death....

I believe that a belief in an afterlife is a denial of death. Well, it is by definition a denial of death.

What have you in life, more challenging to the human spirit, then the comprehension of our own mortality? All pain and evil can be attributed to death. Certainly, if i were not for our mortality, the necessity for gods would be a mute point.

So, in a way, christianity...as well as many, many other religous ideologies...is a system allowing humans to accept without "question" many aspects of their life. The promised gift of an afterlife holds the human spirit up, facing a magnificent "carrot." We walk only toward that image.

My question is who placed the carrot upon the stick, and who still holds it out today?

PS, I use carrot as analogy... just lke the analogy of a blind man unable to utilize his working senses in order to view.

[2nd_chance]

True , and as the times continue to change less and less of the book will be followed by less and less people.

I have new churches all around me who are inviting all walks of life, denominations and sexual orientations to join and worship. It makes me conflicted by wanting to laugh at the hypocrisy and desperation and glad at the same time for the people who open the churches to basically say that the old ways were wrong to persecute people for being different.

You are right on some things Jax. Paul wrote to Timothy 2,000 years ago about this time that we are living in...

2 Timothy 4:2-4 (Amplified Bible)
2 Herald and preach the Word! Keep your sense of urgency [stand by, be at hand and ready], whether the opportunity seems to be favorable or unfavorable. [Whether it is convenient or inconvenient, whether it is welcome or unwelcome, you as preacher of the Word are to show people in what way their lives are wrong.] And convince them, rebuking and correcting, warning and urging and encouraging them, being unflagging and inexhaustible in patience and teaching.
3 For the time is coming when [people] will not tolerate (endure) sound and wholesome instruction, but, having ears itching [for something pleasing and gratifying], they will gather to themselves one teacher after another to a considerable number, chosen to satisfy their own liking and to foster the errors they hold,
4 And will turn aside from hearing the truth and wander off into myths and man-made fictions.

[Medtreker]

You are right on some things Jax. Paul wrote to Timothy 2,000 years ago about this time that we are living in...

I don't know David, you mean like this was a prediction? It reads more like the astrology column. I mean by that, it has such a broad meaning, you could interpret it to any one at any point in time.

Besides, from what I have gathered in your postings here, we've been here 8000 years, is it??, and we don't see that anything is all that different today than it was when those words were first enscribed. So speaking about 2000 years ago or today, it's all equivelent. Cept today we got Seinfeld..just can't let that one go brother.

[2nd_chance]

I don't know David, you mean like this was a prediction? It reads more like the astrology column. I mean by that, it has such a broad meaning, you could interpret it to any one at any point in time.

Besides, from what I have gathered in your postings here, we've been here 8000 years, is it??, and we don't see that anything is all that different today than it was when those words were first enscribed. So speaking about 2000 years ago or today, it's all equivelent. Cept today we got Seinfeld..just can't let that one go brother.

There is much going on within the church world that you are unaware of bro. If Jax said that it is becoming this way and you agreed then how can you now say nothing has changed? Do you agree or disagree based on who is saying it?

[GuyJin]

I always wondered why the established religions needed houses of worship. If your relationship with (insert deity here) is so secure, why bother going to somewhere, assuming said deity/deities are omnipresent? I remember seeing a movie years ago, Stigmata. It wasn't the best flick around but it was interesting, and one scene had an ex-communicated priest telling the hero-priest of the story (Gabriel Byrne) that he didn't need to find God in a church or any other place. This, to me, was the whole crux of the movie, and a friend of mine (Catholic, and rather religious) told me she felt the same way as the ex-communicated priest did.

Yet, week after week, you'll get people of every denomination going to these houses of worship. Why? Communal spirit, for one reason I guess, along with the birds-of-a-feather mentality. I think control is also in the mix, or at least it used to be centuries ago in many countries. Maybe it still is; I don't know. But I do think that as time goes by, you'll see a lot more people questioning the reasoning behind going to any house of worship in order to find a deity that supposedly lives all around us. Will these houses of worship disappear? IDK, but I find it rather ironic that people who believe in an invisible god need some physical substantiation in order to worship him/her/it.

[Brackneyc]

2-C, do you think atheists are stupid?

They are just like everyone else in the stupidity department.

[2nd_chance]

GuyJin, we gather together not just for worship but to be together. God likens the church to a human body where all parts are needed. We draw strength from one another.