First time BULKERS apply here ;)

[tina722]

I'm doing SS, more or less, some modifications to fit some injuries. If strength is your (immediate) goal, start out with SS, then do madcow once you can't increase weights every routine.

Also, the assistance excercises (for madcow) are in the hypertrophy range, so you will get a little bit of overlap.

****

in other notes: I've moved away from loving bulking to being so/so about it. I feel full all the time, and use the toilet waaaay to often. my stomach is soo noisy/gassy. Strength gains are still awesome but I haven't had any weight gain, so this might end up being more of a recomp.

[toodlepip]

Your back looks great.

It's so good to see women in here with my current stats trying to gain. I have always felt this need to hover around the 122-125 range. I am currently 130-132 and likely still gaining. I haven't been near a scale in quite a while. I can't tell you guys the amount of compliments I am getting about looking fuller, especially my upper body/arms, and how they were dying to tell me I was too skinny/lean before.

I guess I will never, ever dip below the 130-lb mark again, which is good because maintaining 122-125 is just no fun. Barely an ab or vein in sight, but who cares. I hate veins, and it's not like I walk around in a crop top/bikini anyhow. Highly overrated at this point in my life .

I hear ya. I had started cutting and then just realised my motivation wasn't there. I'm not weighing, eating in abundance, lifts going through the roof, getting porky and not planning to give a damn until spring. Here's hoping my yoga pants can give another inch or two.

Also started a new program 3 weeks ago and it's given me incredible insight into what a lower level of lifting feels like. I can't remember the last time I only lifted 3x/week. This upcoming week is only 2x. It has taken some getting used to but I am glad I switched over from PHAT. Didn't realise how I was completely used to being sore all the time.

[sglgirl]

I hear ya. I had started cutting and then just realised my motivation wasn't there. I'm not weighing, eating in abundance, lifts going through the roof, getting porky and not planning to give a damn until spring. Here's hoping my yoga pants can give another inch or two.

Also started a new program 3 weeks ago and it's given me incredible insight into what a lower level of lifting feels like. I can't remember the last time I only lifted 3x/week. This upcoming week is only 2x. It has taken some getting used to but I am glad I switched over from PHAT. Didn't realise how I was completely used to being sore all the time.

Are you starting a particular program or something created just for you?

[toodlepip]

Are you starting a particular program or something created just for you?

Started Max Muscle Plan: http://www.humankinetics.com/product...uscle-plan-the

Just finishing the first month of the strength phase this week. Been quite an adjustment going from the high volume of PHAT to the current schedule of just 3x/week workouts - and from a variety of ever-changing exercises to the basics (i.e. the first 3 weeks are simple compounds). But I like it - and how there are distinct phases going from the low rep strength to high rep in the metabolic phase and then, I believe, moderate in the final phase.

Probably the most structured program I have done so we'll see what my gains are after 6 months.

[locolala]

I'm doing SS, more or less, some modifications to fit some injuries. If strength is your (immediate) goal, start out with SS, then do madcow once you can't increase weights every routine.

Also, the assistance excercises (for madcow) are in the hypertrophy range, so you will get a little bit of overlap.

****

in other notes: I've moved away from loving bulking to being so/so about it. I feel full all the time, and use the toilet waaaay to often. my stomach is soo noisy/gassy. Strength gains are still awesome but I haven't had any weight gain, so this might end up being more of a recomp.

i'm switching to SS this week, probs gonna run it for 2 months. the Deadlift's killing me! I'm scared of screwing up my back


Ladies, how much weight did you initially gain when you upped your cals? Just curious. And how did you settle on a good bulking number?

[sglgirl]

i'm switching to SS this week, probs gonna run it for 2 months. the Deadlift's killing me! I'm scared of screwing up my back


Ladies, how much weight did you initially gain when you upped your cals? Just curious. And how did you settle on a good bulking number?

I am still sitting around the same. I have been fluctuating from 130lb-132lb for the last week and a half so my body is trying to do something. Ideally I have a meal guideline I follow but end up eating way more calories (usually in PB & butter and protein powder, yes the PB & Butter are combined on the spoon) than what is on my guideline. My body shape is not as tight of course as it was leading up to my contest, but my clothing is not getting any tighter.

I tried Mark Ripptoe's strength training program for a few weeks, but I got bored so easy with it and had a hard time only doing 3 days a week. I love doing hypertrophy 3-5 sets with 12-6 reps.....

[stephanielynn76]

Well hello yall. I've been out of town since last week so I'm just catching up! I did some SERIOUS eating over Thanksgiving... like all day long every day for 3 days. I drank quite a bit of wine too. I have officially fulked LOL. I am too scared to weigh right now. I think I'm going to cut down on the extra (above and beyond) snacking for a while and tighten up my diet a bit to at least slow down gains. I might keep bulking through December and spend January doing a bit of a recomp before starting competition prep in February. I had to dig out my "fat clothes" I hadn't worn in two years to have something to wear. I know I'm somewhere between 145-150lbs right now. I'm out of the size 6's and have moved on into the 8's. Ah well. The food was good and I've been a total beast in the weightroom.

Obligatory picture from today...

[Jen144]

Okay so I've been officially bulking since the end of September. In those 2 months I've gained 11lbs (7-8lbs of that being initial weight gain from upping my calories--nearly 2.5x that of what I was eating before, and it's still apparently my maintenance).
I've compared pics, and though my measurements are up a few inches (around .5" to 2" depending on where I measure), and my weight up quite a bit, my pics look almost the same! In person, at least to myself, I can see and feel a lot more muscle definition.
I'm lifting double what I was before (although before was a pitifully small weight, I could only lift it for 5 reps), so there must be some muscle gain happening for me to have gained strength, yes?

So, in short: Pics seem the same, more muscle definition in person, lifts doubled, cals doubled and my weight has stayed around the same--slowly gaining though.

Just trying to figure out if I'm still heading in the right direction?

[sglgirl]

Well hello yall. I've been out of town since last week so I'm just catching up! I did some SERIOUS eating over Thanksgiving... like all day long every day for 3 days. I drank quite a bit of wine too. I have officially fulked LOL. I am too scared to weigh right now. I think I'm going to cut down on the extra (above and beyond) snacking for a while and tighten up my diet a bit to at least slow down gains. I might keep bulking through December and spend January doing a bit of a recomp before starting competition prep in February. I had to dig out my "fat clothes" I hadn't worn in two years to have something to wear. I know I'm somewhere between 145-150lbs right now. I'm out of the size 6's and have moved on into the 8's. Ah well. The food was good and I've been a total beast in the weightroom.

Obligatory picture from today...

I would be happy with that picture if I was as lean as that.

[freebirdmac]

i'm switching to SS this week, probs gonna run it for 2 months. the Deadlift's killing me! I'm scared of screwing up my back


Ladies, how much weight did you initially gain when you upped your cals? Just curious. And how did you settle on a good bulking number?

Numbers can vary all over the place. Some even see losses for awhile. The key is what happens over months. If you're gaining 1-2 pounds a month on average and doing well in the gym, you're on the right track.

Well hello yall. I've been out of town since last week so I'm just catching up! I did some SERIOUS eating over Thanksgiving... like all day long every day for 3 days. I drank quite a bit of wine too. I have officially fulked LOL. I am too scared to weigh right now. I think I'm going to cut down on the extra (above and beyond) snacking for a while and tighten up my diet a bit to at least slow down gains. I might keep bulking through December and spend January doing a bit of a recomp before starting competition prep in February. I had to dig out my "fat clothes" I hadn't worn in two years to have something to wear. I know I'm somewhere between 145-150lbs right now. I'm out of the size 6's and have moved on into the 8's. Ah well. The food was good and I've been a total beast in the weightroom.

Phfftt. You know most of that is water. If it weren't for your upcoming comp I wouldn't worry about it at all. As it is, I wouldn't worry much. You look fantastic!

Okay so I've been officially bulking since the end of September. In those 2 months I've gained 11lbs (7-8lbs of that being initial weight gain from upping my calories--nearly 2.5x that of what I was eating before, and it's still apparently my maintenance).
I've compared pics, and though my measurements are up a few inches (around .5" to 2" depending on where I measure), and my weight up quite a bit, my pics look almost the same! In person, at least to myself, I can see and feel a lot more muscle definition.
I'm lifting double what I was before (although before was a pitifully small weight, I could only lift it for 5 reps), so there must be some muscle gain happening for me to have gained strength, yes?

So, in short: Pics seem the same, more muscle definition in person, lifts doubled, cals doubled and my weight has stayed around the same--slowly gaining though.

Just trying to figure out if I'm still heading in the right direction?

Same advice. Go with the flow and see what happens over months. Gains eventually tend to be nonlinear. You can see nothing for a couple of week then boom you're up a pound.

[stephanielynn76]

I would be happy with that picture if I was as lean as that.

Whew. Good to know. I go back and forth between freaking out a little and being like... "no problem... I got this." LOL I've had 2 fairly successful and easy cuts in the past so I know I can do it... it's just a matter of accomplishing that in the necessary time frame without sacrificing much muscle in the process!

Phfftt. You know most of that is water. If it weren't for your upcoming comp I wouldn't worry about it at all. As it is, I wouldn't worry much. You look fantastic!

Well thanks. That means a lot coming from you. Yeah a lot of it was fluid no doubt. I've had trouble getting my rings off the last several days.

Ok bulkers... keep it up! No one is this thread is getting "fat" ... just a lil more "curvy" ... or "voluptuous" as I like to say...

[DaniGrrl]

Steph, you look awesome!!!!! Your quads are amazing!!!

Me, I got on the scale on Saturday and was at 110 but I'm sure it's all still a lot of water. I'm not sure where to go with my calories but I'm going to hold at 2200 for this week and see what the scale says on Friday. I'm sure I averaged out to be way above that by the end of the weekend this week anyway.

I got the 30's up 4x on overhead press today so that was pretty exciting - couldn't do that a couple weeks ago. I also got the 35's up for 3 sets of 5 on bench today - first time I completed the 5 reps for all 3 sets. I had tried the 40's last week and couldn't budge them but I'll have to try it out again next week. Have gotten 3 decent wide grip pullups, can almost get a fourth but form starts to suffer at that point. So I'm making pretty good progress on strength and am pretty happy about it.

I've had my heart set on competing next year, but financially and personally I'm thinking I should put it off maybe for another year. I guess I still have some time to decide but I'm thinking I should hire a coach soon-ish and I don't know if that's an expense I should take on right now. I'm disappointed but competing is a lot to take on with everything going on, and also that stress on a psyche that is stretched to the max is probably not a good idea. The stage isn't going anywhere, though.

[megdaig]

Whew. Good to know. I go back and forth between freaking out a little and being like... "no problem... I got this." LOL I've had 2 fairly successful and easy cuts in the past so I know I can do it... it's just a matter of accomplishing that in the necessary time frame without sacrificing much muscle in the process!


Well thanks. That means a lot coming from you. Yeah a lot of it was fluid no doubt. I've had trouble getting my rings off the last several days.

I get the same feelings. I'll be good on my diet for a few days and feeling lean and mean, then I have a bad day or two on the weekend and I look and feel pudgier and watery...ugh.

Ok bulkers... keep it up! No one is this thread is getting "fat" ... just a lil more "curvy" ... or "voluptuous" as I like to say...

Definitely get more "you're looking great" compliments during my bulk than when I was getting scary lean....interesting what a little junk-in-the-trunk will do for ya



Steph...Do you keep a journal? I'll be prepping about the same time as you. I'd love to follow your progress....

[stephanielynn76]

Steph, you look awesome!!!!! Your quads are amazing!!!

Me, I got on the scale on Saturday and was at 110 but I'm sure it's all still a lot of water. I'm not sure where to go with my calories but I'm going to hold at 2200 for this week and see what the scale says on Friday. I'm sure I averaged out to be way above that by the end of the weekend this week anyway.

I got the 30's up 4x on overhead press today so that was pretty exciting - couldn't do that a couple weeks ago. I also got the 35's up for 3 sets of 5 on bench today - first time I completed the 5 reps for all 3 sets. I had tried the 40's last week and couldn't budge them but I'll have to try it out again next week. Have gotten 3 decent wide grip pullups, can almost get a fourth but form starts to suffer at that point. So I'm making pretty good progress on strength and am pretty happy about it.

I've had my heart set on competing next year, but financially and personally I'm thinking I should put it off maybe for another year. I guess I still have some time to decide but I'm thinking I should hire a coach soon-ish and I don't know if that's an expense I should take on right now. I'm disappointed but competing is a lot to take on with everything going on, and also that stress on a psyche that is stretched to the max is probably not a good idea. The stage isn't going anywhere, though.

Thanks!!!
Great job and impressive progress on the lifts... rockin' and rolling!!! Beast mode!!! As for competing... I have two schools of thought on this. While I do think it's good for people to wait until they've got a good base and have their diet/training all down before getting on stage... don't feel like you have to keep putting it off until you achieve you're ultimate goal. The small show I did this past summer taught me a lot and I'm so glad I have that experience under my belt before the one I'm targeting in July. Along with posing, I now know a lot more about what I would do differently as far as diet, carb loading, and peak week. I'm way more prepared this time. However... it IS expensive, time consuming, and overwhelming at times and that must be taken into consideration. I think you've got enough muscle to do it, you just need to decide if you can handle the financial/psychological aspects of it right now in your life. Whatever you decided... we are here for ya!

I get the same feelings. I'll be good on my diet for a few days and feeling lean and mean, then I have a bad day or two on the weekend and I look and feel pudgier and watery...ugh.





Definitely get more "you're looking great" compliments during my bulk than when I was getting scary lean....interesting what a little junk-in-the-trunk will do for ya



Steph...Do you keep a journal? I'll be prepping about the same time as you. I'd love to follow your progress....

Oh I TOTALLY get more compliments when "thicker" ... men... what's up with that? Why they like so much body fat??? I haven't ever kept a journal here but I have been blogging on my MyFitnessPal.com blog for a good while now. I'm too lazy to chart every detail so I just do random updates with pictures. I have had the blog for so long (with a bit of a following) that I hate to abandon it. Do YOU have a journal? I'd like to follow along with you too!!!

[freebirdmac]

Steph, you look awesome!!!!! Your quads are amazing!!!

Me, I got on the scale on Saturday and was at 110 but I'm sure it's all still a lot of water. I'm not sure where to go with my calories but I'm going to hold at 2200 for this week and see what the scale says on Friday. I'm sure I averaged out to be way above that by the end of the weekend this week anyway.

I got the 30's up 4x on overhead press today so that was pretty exciting - couldn't do that a couple weeks ago. I also got the 35's up for 3 sets of 5 on bench today - first time I completed the 5 reps for all 3 sets. I had tried the 40's last week and couldn't budge them but I'll have to try it out again next week. Have gotten 3 decent wide grip pullups, can almost get a fourth but form starts to suffer at that point. So I'm making pretty good progress on strength and am pretty happy about it.

I've had my heart set on competing next year, but financially and personally I'm thinking I should put it off maybe for another year. I guess I still have some time to decide but I'm thinking I should hire a coach soon-ish and I don't know if that's an expense I should take on right now. I'm disappointed but competing is a lot to take on with everything going on, and also that stress on a psyche that is stretched to the max is probably not a good idea. The stage isn't going anywhere, though.

Great progress on the lifts! That's what really matters on a bulk. Good job!

I get the same feelings. I'll be good on my diet for a few days and feeling lean and mean, then I have a bad day or two on the weekend and I look and feel pudgier and watery...ugh.





Definitely get more "you're looking great" compliments during my bulk than when I was getting scary lean....interesting what a little junk-in-the-trunk will do for ya



Steph...Do you keep a journal? I'll be prepping about the same time as you. I'd love to follow your progress....

It's funny, but by the end of my last bulk I had pudge, saddle bags, and the guys at the gym took obvious notice! While no one said anything directly it was clear that they liked it. I wasn't "fat" by any stretch of the imagination but did have fluff. Goes to show ya that thin is not as attractive as most women think!

[stephanielynn76]

It's funny, but by the end of my last bulk I had pudge, saddle bags, and the guys at the gym took obvious notice! While no one said anything directly it was clear that they liked it. I wasn't "fat" by any stretch of the imagination but did have fluff. Goes to show ya that thin is not as attractive as most women think!

I believe it! Every guy I talk to at the gym except for one has said I look better with more body fat. These people aren't shy... they come out and SAY IT. One guy point blank asked how much I gained. When I told him "20lbs" he said... "15 of it is in your ass" ... which I kinda liked

[sglgirl]

Whew. Good to know. I go back and forth between freaking out a little and being like... "no problem... I got this." LOL I've had 2 fairly successful and easy cuts in the past so I know I can do it... it's just a matter of accomplishing that in the necessary time frame without sacrificing much muscle in the process!



Well thanks. That means a lot coming from you. Yeah a lot of it was fluid no doubt. I've had trouble getting my rings off the last several days.

Ok bulkers... keep it up! No one is this thread is getting "fat" ... just a lil more "curvy" ... or "voluptuous" as I like to say...

I seem to carry a lot of belly bloat all the time. I bloated just before I walked on stage....my AVI is lean compared to stage.

I believe it! Every guy I talk to at the gym except for one has said I look better with more body fat. These people aren't shy... they come out and SAY IT. One guy point blank asked how much I gained. When I told him "20lbs" he said... "15 of it is in your ass" ... which I kinda liked

It only seems that the ones who have a GF or wife are the ones that will chat it up with me. Some people seem to think I intimidate the men...I don't know how, I don't say much when I have the earphones in.

[DaniGrrl]

Thanks!!!
Great job and impressive progress on the lifts... rockin' and rolling!!! Beast mode!!! As for competing... I have two schools of thought on this. While I do think it's good for people to wait until they've got a good base and have their diet/training all down before getting on stage... don't feel like you have to keep putting it off until you achieve you're ultimate goal. The small show I did this past summer taught me a lot and I'm so glad I have that experience under my belt before the one I'm targeting in July. Along with posing, I now know a lot more about what I would do differently as far as diet, carb loading, and peak week. I'm way more prepared this time. However... it IS expensive, time consuming, and overwhelming at times and that must be taken into consideration. I think you've got enough muscle to do it, you just need to decide if you can handle the financial/psychological aspects of it right now in your life. Whatever you decided... we are here for ya!



Oh I TOTALLY get more compliments when "thicker" ... men... what's up with that? Why they like so much body fat??? I haven't ever kept a journal here but I have been blogging on my MyFitnessPal.com blog for a good while now. I'm too lazy to chart every detail so I just do random updates with pictures. I have had the blog for so long (with a bit of a following) that I hate to abandon it. Do YOU have a journal? I'd like to follow along with you too!!!

I totally understand where you're coming from and I think choosing a smaller more local-type show would be a great first time thing to shoot for. I think(hope!!!) by the end of this bulk, I would feel comfortable enough stepping on stage, and every little bit of experience helps. I just worry that even though I'd go into it saying it's just for the experience, I might not feel that way if I don't do well. I am a total over-thinker!!! LOL I suppose I could get some prices and things for coaches and see if I might be able to swing it. There is a guy I'd really like to hire and it can't hurt to ask what his rates are. It's a lot to think about. There's pros and cons both to going for it and also for waiting. And I'm sure being myself, I'm making it more difficult than it needs to be. I'll start thinking about it more seriously after the holidays are over.

[sglgirl]

okay...I have a this terrible addiction to natural PB....I eat way too much everyday. I love it, I crave it (after meals, late at night, anytime really). I sometimes think if I sit down and eat the whole jar it will make me sicker than a dog and I wont want it again. Has anyone ever sat down and just ate it until it made them sick just so they would not want to eat it again?

That is the only thing I am having a problem with controlling and I dont know how to change it. I did go without opening a jar for about a month and a half during the last of my prep but then contest day came and went ....and well.....I have gone through 2.5 jars (each jar is a KG or 2.2lbs) now in 4.5 weeks.

Any suggestions?

[megdaig]

Thanks!!!

Oh I TOTALLY get more compliments when "thicker" ... men... what's up with that? Why they like so much body fat??? I haven't ever kept a journal here but I have been blogging on my MyFitnessPal.com blog for a good while now. I'm too lazy to chart every detail so I just do random updates with pictures. I have had the blog for so long (with a bit of a following) that I hate to abandon it. Do YOU have a journal? I'd like to follow along with you too!!!

Yes ma'am...it's right here --> Oh snap....Meg-O's training for a Figure comp.... It starts off with me starting at overweight (160#) just after my ACL reconstruction, through my first figure competition in June...and up until now.


I remember you posting a link to your MFP blog...would ya throw it back out there and I'll add you. It's funny, but that's how my friends and I assembled our Tough Mudder team was through MFP. It was really cool to meet up with random "strangers" and do something totally fun and challenging together.

[Botika]

Obligatory picture from today...

I think you look fantastic. You look in proportion all over!

[stephanielynn76]

Yes ma'am...it's right here --> Oh snap....Meg-O's training for a Figure comp.... It starts off with me starting at overweight (160#) just after my ACL reconstruction, through my first figure competition in June...and up until now.


I remember you posting a link to your MFP blog...would ya throw it back out there and I'll add you. It's funny, but that's how my friends and I assembled our Tough Mudder team was through MFP. It was really cool to meet up with random "strangers" and do something totally fun and challenging together.

Subscribed!!! Yay... I'm gonna skim through and try to catch up! Here is my blog: http://www.myfitnesspal.com/blog/stephanielynn76 ...It started with my original cut (from 140lbs to 118lbs) ... then bulk #1... and now bulk #2.

I think you look fantastic. You look in proportion all over!

Well thanks chickie! I am fortunate in that I do tend to kinda gain fairly evenly all over though I'm sure my butt/boobs tend to get the fullest (nope... not complaining about that!). You know what's kinda wigging me out right now... tricep fat. Like I can hide the thigh dimples with compression tights but the arms... it's out there for everyone to see! :/

[locolala]

It's only been my 2nd workout of doing SS and I've already failed it I failed on my 2nd set of OHP lifting 55lbs WTF. It's a little demotivating. Sorry I just have to let it out here, I don't really talk about training/diet outside of here (no one to talk to about it)

[sglgirl]

Woo Hoo...I am going to say it is official, up 2lbs!! Now hopefully I netted myself at least .5lb of lean muscle outta that

[tina722]

It's only been my 2nd workout of doing SS and I've already failed it I failed on my 2nd set of OHP lifting 55lbs WTF. It's a little demotivating. Sorry I just have to let it out here, I don't really talk about training/diet outside of here (no one to talk to about it)

what did you start with and what increases are you doing? You will probably need microweights - upper body increases are hard.

Don't get unmotivated!

[locolala]

what did you start with and what increases are you doing? You will probably need microweights - upper body increases are hard.

Don't get unmotivated!

In this program I started with 50lbs. The spreadsheet calls for 5lbs/workout. It seems a lot, but right now I don't have the money to get them, so I'll go for the extra rep route.
I'm thinking of doing a 3x8 tomorrow in addition to bench press, I don't know if that will help my OHP? I'm trying to increase the frequency, but don't know if it's right in terms of sets and reps.

[stephanielynn76]

I went to the gym yesterday with the intentions of busting my ass and busted my damn finger instead. I crushed it between 2 5lb plates when doing a little warm-up. I was distracted. That shizzz hurt and even woke me up during the night last night.

[tina722]

In this program I started with 50lbs. The spreadsheet calls for 5lbs/workout. It seems a lot, but right now I don't have the money to get them, so I'll go for the extra rep route.
I'm thinking of doing a 3x8 tomorrow in addition to bench press, I don't know if that will help my OHP? I'm trying to increase the frequency, but don't know if it's right in terms of sets and reps.

Extra rep route sounds like a good idea: you mean work up to 3x8@50 then jump to 3x5 @55, right? Just be careful to not hit failure, finish the rep cleanly, but don't start an additional rep if you won't finish.

I would be careful with adding in extra work. IMO add chins instead of more OHP. Increasing vertical pulling will help with pressing strength, and it will also hit delts/lats again.

[locolala]

Extra rep route sounds like a good idea: you mean work up to 3x8@50 then jump to 3x5 @55, right? Just be careful to not hit failure, finish the rep cleanly, but don't start an additional rep if you won't finish.

I would be careful with adding in extra work. IMO add chins instead of more OHP. Increasing vertical pulling will help with pressing strength, and it will also hit delts/lats again.

I mean 3x8 of OHP probably @45lbs. But I'll probably give chins a go, since I can't even do one unassisted.
I'm afraid the numbers for BP and OHP may be too high to begin with. I have a weaker chest compared to my back, and progress just seems slow.

[megdaig]

I mean 3x8 of OHP probably @45lbs. But I'll probably give chins a go, since I can't even do one unassisted.
I'm afraid the numbers for BP and OHP may be too high to begin with. I have a weaker chest compared to my back, and progress just seems slow.

Another method would be to focus on the negative rep. If you can have someone help spot you and get weight up (or do thrusters to get the weight up) and slowly lower the weight. Doing the negative only is just as effective as the push.