My Novice 5x5 For Bodybuilders.

[mtpktz]

I'm currently training on PHAT and have done various programs, usually for 10-12 weeks at a time (lifting seriously for ~1 year). I am currently about 6 weeks into a 2nd go-round with PHAT and I feel like I am completely plateaued. I love the program you have here but I just began a cut and am seeing my weight (lifting) slowly decrease. I would imagine that this routine would be optimal for a bulk as I am only taking in roughly 2k-2k calories/day. Please tell me I'm wrong and I can still make good progress even though I'm cutting rather than bulking.

Thanks!

[JasonDB]

Jason,

Completed 2 weeks on your routine and I am loving it.

Squats are my big weakness and started light, but I have been adding 5 lbs every workout to most exercises.

Started my workout log as well --> http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=149284733

I love , love this routine!!

Progress in 2 weeks:
1. Squats: 145lbs --> 170lbs
2. Bench: 145lbs --> 155lbs
3. Rows: 145lbs --> 155lbs
4. Deadlift: 250lbs --> 260lbs

Great progress those workouts on squats will be over 200 in no time and you'll be repped over 300 on the deadlifts in a couple months also if you stick to it. I put a 30-year-old novice who did pushups and chinups but had never lifted in his life on a very similar program to this, and while he lost 15 lbs of fluff doing it (he was dieting because he had developed a gut that he was concerned about), in 16 weeks he hit a 205 bench (from 90 lbs at day one), 255 squat and a 305 deadlift (he could only pull around 125 on day one)

Hey jason, i prefer dips over gcbp, any chance i could switch? or is there a pacific reason they are there, thanks!

Dips are a fine exercise. CGBP is safer on the shoulders of a novice and has more direct carryover into bench press performance which we are using as a primary mass builder.

At the gym right now. I looked in the mirror by accident and saw growth in my chest and arms. So decided to redo my max rep for bench press and it was 125. Looking to do three sets at my 5 rep weight.

Edit:
I did three sets but failed to get to five on the last two but I got to four. Eager for my next bench day. The problem was my form. When I paid more attention to it I did better. Feeling high off this.

Good stuff.

I'm currently training on PHAT and have done various programs, usually for 10-12 weeks at a time (lifting seriously for ~1 year). I am currently about 6 weeks into a 2nd go-round with PHAT and I feel like I am completely plateaued. I love the program you have here but I just began a cut and am seeing my weight (lifting) slowly decrease. I would imagine that this routine would be optimal for a bulk as I am only taking in roughly 2k-2k calories/day. Please tell me I'm wrong and I can still make good progress even though I'm cutting rather than bulking.

Thanks!

Depending on how advanced you are it may be impossible to make progress on a cut, however this novice bulking routine is actually very good for muscle preservation for a more advanced lifter on a cut due to all the lower rep barbell work.

[chinery26]

Hi Jason, great thread. Im a novice and am going to start this program next week. Going to be on a 500 calorie surplus clean diet, just got one question, could you give me a list of all the supplements you think are required when bulking, thanks a lot.

[JasonDB]

Hi Jason, great thread. Im a novice and am going to start this program next week. Going to be on a 500 calorie surplus clean diet, just got one question, could you give me a list of all the supplements you think are required when bulking, thanks a lot.

[pyaarawala]

Man, the new increase in volume is really destroying me! SS really spoiled my body. I used to do 3x5 squats with 7 min rest in between. Now I'm doing 5x5 with only 3 min in between with the same weight! Afterwards I can barely move, and if I sit down, I really gotta use my hands to push off the bench to get up! Awesome program man! Can't wait to see more results!

[JedDaIron]

just saw this program today. Anyway my bench always stalls at 135. Lifts are:
squat- 220x5
deadlift- 280x4
front squat-165x5
Bench- 135x4
OHP- 110x5

Any tips so that my bench doesent stall often? currently doing babylovers ss and cutting. Currently at 17% bf. Want to get down to 10-12% before bulking

[JasonDB]

just saw this program today. Anyway my bench always stalls at 135. Lifts are:
squat- 220x5
deadlift- 280x4
front squat-165x5
Bench- 135x4
OHP- 110x5

Any tips so that my bench doesent stall often? currently doing babylovers ss and cutting. Currently at 17% bf. Want to get down to 10-12% before bulking

You are cutting you should expect stalls in your lifts that may even last the duration of your cut. The only really viable solution to this problem is stop cutting and actually focus on size and strength for awhile.

Also you are 155 lbs and cutting... I think this is unwise personally. I have a sticky in the nutrition forum with a video explaining why.

[aky]

hey jason, just starting this program and I had a few questions for you. What are your thoughts on box squats? I find them to be easier on the knees and other joints. Could I do box squats on both workouts (A&B) instead of regular squats?

Also on workout B you say to do 10% less on the bb rows. Why only for BB rows and not the other big lifts like the squats/bench press? I did starting strength a while back and i remember i had to decrease weight on workout B for the big lifts.

other than that, great job on this thread. thanks.

[JasonDB]

hey jason, just starting this program and I had a few questions for you. What are your thoughts on box squats? I find them to be easier on the knees and other joints. Could I do box squats on both workouts (A&B) instead of regular squats?

Also on workout B you say to do 10% less on the bb rows. Why only for BB rows and not the other big lifts like the squats/bench press? I did starting strength a while back and i remember i had to decrease weight on workout B for the big lifts.

other than that, great job on this thread. thanks.

This isn't SS it is a hypertrophy based program using slightly lighter intensities and the only big compound that repeats other than the rows are the squats. I have the weight reduction on the rows due to heavy deadlifts being done prior to them while in workout A they are done with a relatively fresh back. If I allowed full weight on them novices would be hitting new weights on their workout A and then due to deadlift fatigue failing at those weights on workout B, so they included with a slightly lighter weight to at least induce additional workload and metabolic fatigue for hypertrophy if not actual strength gains.

If you can safely to box squats then by all means do so. I have a box squat video.

[Erik09]

Just started this program last thursday, and because I was sick for over a week with the flu and wasn't able to eat anything for days except some milk, I dropped my weights down alot and really focused on the form. I think my previous squats only stopped at parallel, but now that I'm going below my ass is feeling it so bad. And bench pressing with a pause at the chest is really killing me x)

But I have a few questions! With warmup and stretching I was at the gym for 2 hours today, is that too long? (A, B is usually shorter)

And also, deep squats - when I go below parallel my lumbar(?) sorta bends.. if that makes sense. Should I stop going so deep? My upper back is straight and whatnot

My apologies for the bad english

[Ferello]

i cant do hyper extensions in my gym, what shall i do?

[JasonDB]

Just started this program last thursday, and because I was sick for over a week with the flu and wasn't able to eat anything for days except some milk, I dropped my weights down alot and really focused on the form. I think my previous squats only stopped at parallel, but now that I'm going below my ass is feeling it so bad. And bench pressing with a pause at the chest is really killing me x)

But I have a few questions! With warmup and stretching I was at the gym for 2 hours today, is that too long? (A, B is usually shorter)

And also, deep squats - when I go below parallel my lumbar(?) sorta bends.. if that makes sense. Should I stop going so deep? My upper back is straight and whatnot

My apologies for the bad english

Then stop at parallel on your squats.. we call this butt winking. Work on hamstring stretching. That is a bit long for this workout but if you are comfortable with being there that long there is no negative effect of this.

i cant do hyper extensions in my gym, what shall i do?

Cable pullthroughs (google a youtube video) or if you can do them safely and carefully, good mornings.

[Ferello]

Then stop at parallel on your squats.. we call this butt winking. Work on hamstring stretching. That is a bit long for this workout but if you are comfortable with being there that long there is no negative effect of this.



Cable pullthroughs (google a youtube video) or if you can do them safely and carefully, good mornings.

Thanks i can do good mornings pretty decently, also can i do a overhead cable extension instead of skullcrushers as i prefer them alot more?

[Ferello]

also as i mentioned before i cant do deadlifts, heavy anyways.., shall i just do 1x10 good mornings nstead on b workout?

[JasonDB]

Thanks i can do good mornings pretty decently, also can i do a overhead cable extension instead of skullcrushers as i prefer them alot more?

You could but they will not put as much meat on your arms nor will the strength carry over to your pressing as well. I wasn't arbitrary in my selectoin of lifts.

also as i mentioned before i cant do deadlifts, heavy anyways.., shall i just do 1x10 good mornings nstead on b workout?

Why can't you do deadlifts again? Keep I mind I get 200 questions a day between my stickies, youtube channel and ******** page. So I forget individual people.

[Ferello]

You could but they will not put as much meat on your arms nor will the strength carry over to your pressing as well. I wasn't arbitrary in my selectoin of lifts.



Why can't you do deadlifts again? Keep I mind I get 200 questions a day between my stickies, youtube channel and ******** page. So I forget individual people.

Yeh sorry aha, erm i cant do any heavy lifting due to herniation in 2 discs, so squats are useally leg press, rows are chest/lower back supported and well deadlifts.. just cant doe em.

[JasonDB]

Yeh sorry aha, erm i cant do any heavy lifting due to herniation in 2 discs, so squats are useally leg press, rows are chest/lower back supported and well deadlifts.. just cant doe em.

However you can still do good mornings without issue? If you can do good mornings safely and your physiotherapist is ok with it use them to build up your spinal erectors and posterior chain. Do them both sessions 3x8 after the other heavy compounds.

[Ferello]

However you can still do good mornings without issue? If you can do good mornings safely and your physiotherapist is ok with it use them to build up your spinal erectors and posterior chain. Do them both sessions 3x8 after the other heavy compounds.

Because i see good mornings a safer/simpler exercise due to the fact i dont have to raise the weight every session and do them heavy as i would have to with squats and deads, just to keep my lower back somewhat strong, thanks for the reply.

[Charlie050912]

Nice program. Here is some feedback. I have completed SS and then took a year off reaching 305 dead, 225 squat, 155 bench, 125 row and 95 press. Now I have returned and didn't want to do SS because I found it a bit mindless. You ran in, lifted your **** and before you knew it you were out the door. This program seems to be more long the lines of "don't forget to smell the roses". What I mean is, sure you have that fast progression but you also take just that little extra time to do the fun stuff. I find the extra work at the end of the 5x5 to be a nice cooldown period where the intensity drops a little before you roll out. You can take your time, you don't huff and puff like a madman so you can chat a little. On SS I felt like a guerilla busting bif lifts then storming out lol.

Anyway, I have an issue with my Rows. I seem to always tip the edge of my knee while doing the exercise. What could be the cause of this? Is it possible my feet are too close, arms too close?

[salubrious]

Your caloric intake is perfect with that weight gain so that isn't the issue. No don't ignore the lower back pain. Do lots of hamstring stretching and foam roll your lower back and considering taking one session off from doing any of the lumbar intensive movements like squats & deadlifts and assess it from there. By this I am assuming you mean actual pain such as a shocking pain or it hurting at the actual spine not just a burn or DOMS in the spinal erectors.

Ok I'll try that. Should I be using a belt? Not sure if that would be cheating or something. And on that subject, can we be use straps for rows and shrugs?

[JasonDB]

Nice program. Here is some feedback. I have completed SS and then took a year off reaching 305 dead, 225 squat, 155 bench, 125 row and 95 press. Now I have returned and didn't want to do SS because I found it a bit mindless. You ran in, lifted your **** and before you knew it you were out the door. This program seems to be more long the lines of "don't forget to smell the roses". What I mean is, sure you have that fast progression but you also take just that little extra time to do the fun stuff. I find the extra work at the end of the 5x5 to be a nice cooldown period where the intensity drops a little before you roll out. You can take your time, you don't huff and puff like a madman so you can chat a little. On SS I felt like a guerilla busting bif lifts then storming out lol.

Anyway, I have an issue with my Rows. I seem to always tip the edge of my knee while doing the exercise. What could be the cause of this? Is it possible my feet are too close, arms too close?

You are too upright with a bad bar path if you are physically capable of hitting your knee when you row. I see this a lot in gyms though, people doing rows with a very light weight with knee bend and running a bar path that is angled instead of straight up and down. You should stretch at the bottom to a dead hang then row to the base of your rib cage.

Ok I'll try that. Should I be using a belt? Not sure if that would be cheating or something. And on that subject, can we be use straps for rows and shrugs?

Shrugging heavy without straps is almost impossible. I use straps for rows and shrugs. I know championship winning powerlifters who do a lot of their work sets on deadlifts... with straps.

Yes belts are cheating and should be classified as a side effect free performance enhancing drug. They can improve neural effeciency and I advocate their use.

[Charlie050912]

You are too upright with a bad bar path if you are physically capable of hitting your knee when you row. I see this a lot in gyms though, people doing rows with a very light weight with knee bend and running a bar path that is angled instead of straight up and down. You should stretch at the bottom to a dead hang then row to the base of your rib cage.

I am not upright because I lift from the ground and keep my upper body horizontal. The bar path is def the problem here because I sense it changing when I have to maneuver around my knees so you are spot on with this. Could this be fixed by modifying my foot stance, bar grip or something else? Is it possible my hip position is off causing this?

[JasonDB]

I am not upright because I lift from the ground and keep my upper body horizontal. The bar path is def the problem here because I sense it changing when I have to maneuver around my knees so you are spot on with this. Could this be fixed by modifying my foot stance, bar grip or something else? Is it possible my hip position is off causing this?

I doubt those are it but without a video I cannot say for sure. The most likely culprit if you are pulling it from the floor or close to the floor is that you are pulling to your stomach instead of your lower rib cage.

[Spimman]

Yes belts are cheating and should be classified as a side effect free performance enhancing drug. They can improve neural effeciency and I advocate their use.

Jason, I read all your responses here because I learn a lot. Thanks for taking the time!

Can you explain the above quote in a little more detail?

[JasonDB]

Jason, I read all your responses here because I learn a lot. Thanks for taking the time!

Can you explain the above quote in a little more detail?

Muscle groups have a splashover effect in terms of priming the CNS for lifting a weight. Gripping the bar harder can slightly improve press or pulling power, tightening the abs can improve strength on all lifts etc. A belt gives your abs something to press against tightly to contract them when lifting, thus giving one a very slight strength increase.

[Charlie050912]

I doubt those are it but without a video I cannot say for sure. The most likely culprit if you are pulling it from the floor or close to the floor is that you are pulling to your stomach instead of your lower rib cage.

I think you nailed it. I'm doing some air-rows and I believe I am pulling to lower stomach and not lower rib cage. Now when you say lower rib cage do you mean lower part of the front or the complete lower part on the sides (which is closer to belly button height)?

[JasonDB]

I think you nailed it. I'm doing some air-rows and I believe I am pulling to lower stomach and not lower rib cage. Now when you say lower rib cage do you mean lower part of the front or the complete lower part on the sides (which is closer to belly button height)?

I mean around 3" below the nipples. Well above the belly button.

[Ferello]

Hi jason i see many ways to perform the cable crunch on youtube, do you have a video you could link me that shows it in its most effective form? cheers.

[shmern]

been doing this routine for a few weeks and loving it, making great gains on all lifts except my chest. i am making gains to chest, but not proportional to the gains im making elsewhere. would adding another chest exercise be advisable? and on which day?

[Mak1n]

Hi Jason, there are tons of instuctional videos on youtube, but I'm still not sure about my Squat and Deadlift techniques which are most injury-risk. Which videos would you recommend to master Squat/Deadlift. I don't want ask personal trainers in gym because I don't trust them.