Abs

[oldsuperman]

I adhered to this ^^ same perspective for years, until last year when I hired my current trainer. His attitude is identical to Enduro's:



and as skeptical as I was, I followed his plan to the letter, thinking I'm just gonna end up with a flat, featureless abdomen. Lo and behold: my trainer was right. I haven't done a single ab exercise since July 2007 and my abs are fuller, stronger and more pronounced through indirect heavy lifting than they ever were with dedicated abdominal work.

Yep! Diet! People ask me when I say I only do two sets of fifty crunches, "Is that all?" I say "Yep, if I remember to do em."

I've had the best abs ever in my life this year and it's because BF has been so low. I also keep the gut tight and sucked in when doing "heavy compound movements".

[Daimozz]

90% of having nice abs is proper diet to get the body fat down. Heavy compound movements will take care of the rest.

ditto

[Mark42]

I agree that diet is key in ensuring you've got a good set of abs, although I still train abs twice per week.

I always do my abs at the end of a workout to ensure I do not weaken my core before any compound lifts. My workout consists generally of:

Cable crunches super set with hanging leg raises 3x12
Decline weighted crunches - 3x10
Dragon Flags - 3x10

I find my abs are far more defined one I stay away from bread but I'm fine with dairy

[Inthegrass]

So much of my workout has core based elements involved in it. My phylosophy is that a house needs a good foundation to build off of. Seems to be working for me so far. I'm not trying to get as big as a house though.

Jeff

[timberwolf]

I adhered to this ^^ same perspective for years, until last year when I hired my current trainer. His attitude is identical to Enduro's:



and as skeptical as I was, I followed his plan to the letter, thinking I'm just gonna end up with a flat, featureless abdomen. Lo and behold: my trainer was right. I haven't done a single ab exercise since July 2007 and my abs are fuller, stronger and more pronounced through indirect heavy lifting than they ever were with dedicated abdominal work.

This study compared using the stability ball to simply doing heavy squats and deads....

J Strength Cond Res. 2008 Jan ;22 (1):95-102 18296961 (P,S,E,B,D) Trunk muscle activity during stability ball and free weight exercises.

[My paper] James L Nuzzo, Grant O McCaulley, Prue Cormie, Michael J Cavill, Jeffrey M McBride
Neuromuscular Laboratory, Department of Health, Leisure & Exercise Science, Appalachian State University, Boone, North Carolina.
The purpose of this investigation was to compare trunk muscle activity during stability ball and free weight exercises. Nine resistance-trained men participated in one testing session in which squats (SQ) and deadlifts (DL) were completed with loads of approximately 50, 70, 90, and 100% of one-repetition maximum (1RM). Isometric contractions during 3 stability ball exercises (quadruped (QP), pelvic thrust (PT), ball back extension (BE)) were also completed. During all exercises, average integrated electromyography (IEMG) from the rectus abdominus (RA), external oblique (EO), longissimus (L1) and multifidus (L5) was collected and analyzed. Results demonstrate that when expressed relative to 100% DL 1RM, muscle activity was 19.5 +/- 14.8% for L1 and 30.2 +/- 19.3% for L5 during QP, 31.4 +/- 13.4% for L1 and 37.6 +/- 12.4% for L5 during PT, and 44.2 +/- 22.8% for L1 and 45.5 +/- 21.6% for L5 during BE. IEMG of L1 during SQ and DL at 90 and 100% 1RM, and relative muscle activity of L5 during SQ and DL at 100% 1RM was significantly greater (P </= 0.05) than in the stability ball exercises. Furthermore, relative muscle activity of L1 during DL at 50 and 70% 1RM was significantly greater than in QP and PT. No significant differences were observed in RA and EO during any of the exercises. In conclusion, activity of the trunk muscles during SQs and DLs is greater or equal to that which is produced during the stability ball exercises. It appears that stability ball exercises may not provide a sufficient stimulus for increasing muscular strength or hypertrophy; consequently, the role of stability ball exercises in strength and conditioning programs is questioned. SQs and DLs are recommended for increasing strength and hypertrophy of the back extensors.

Anyway, I've resumed doing abs 3x per week though it doesn't seem to make any cosmetic difference that I can tell.

[kimsquit]

Thanks Timber,

I particularly like the second-to-last sentence in that study:

It appears that stability ball exercises may not provide a sufficient stimulus for increasing muscular strength or hypertrophy; consequently, the role of stability ball exercises in strength and conditioning programs is questioned.

way too many people wobbling around on those things doing one-legged, supine, lateral barbell flyes and other such nonsense

[timberwolf]

Thanks Timber,

I particularly like the second-to-last sentence in that study:



way too many people wobbling around on those things doing one-legged, supine, lateral barbell flyes and other such nonsense

totally agree. I'm on a mission to puncture everyone of them I find without getting kicked out of the gym.

This guy was telling me he wanted to put on size on his arms and his trainer was having him do all his curls and tricep extensions while seated on the stability ball or standing on the bosu ball. So the most I'd ever seen him use was 12lb dumbell if that.

[Gunn27]

way too many people wobbling around on those things doing one-legged, supine, lateral barbell flyes and other such nonsense

Yeah, but you have to admit it makes for great entertainment in the gym.

[mtxpert]

1x a week here, hanging leg raises, decline crunches, cable oblique crunches and decline russian twists. You can almost see the top 4 pack and obliques peaking out from my ever dimishing layer of fat.

[Stevelegh]

OK, thank you everyone.

Funny, you mention abs and even a newb like me can get posts from the real heavy hitters on this forum. Much appreciated. I really pleased I've got responses from those who I aspire to.

What I've gleaned from you guys is that abs don't count for **** if your BF is covering, and it seems that compound lifts can produce them. For more definition sure, work them, but you can get 'em too big.

I'll be hitting them 3 x a week plus trying to dial in the diet, keeping a watchful eye on whether I need to emphasis on lifts or crunches and laying off if things get too big (I wish at this stage ha ha!)

Dairy and bread tend to bloat so are best avoided. I'm taking Animal Pak. Will that give me sufficient calcium or will I need to supplement?

I'm also using a mass gainer3 x a day, which I'm beginning to think is a mistake as I'm putting weight on too fast (6lb in 2 1/2 weeks), and it is going on my gut, so I may drop back to regular protein. Any tips on a good brand that won't pack it on for me?

I figure with the dairy and bread gone, if I carb in the morning and pre workout, I should still gain muscle but lose BF right?

Sorry if all this sounds like out of the mouths of babes, but I've gone from struggling to gain, to putting weight on too fast, although it could just be a blip and my body is working out what to do with the extra calories. We'll see.

It seems all about diet first, then working out.

Gotta find what works for me.

[cast iron shore]

I do abs ~4x/wk but rotate the machines and exercises so I hit different parts. I find that not resting between sets helps.

[eddie.mac]

About 4x's a week. I usually work on abs after every workout. I do 2 to 3 of the following.

Ab Machine- 4 sets of 20
Knee/ Hip raises- 4 sets of 25
Crunches with 4lb ball- 4 sets of 15
Sidebends- 4 sets of 15

I can see some results.

[kimsquit]

What I've gleaned from you guys is that abs don't count for **** if your BF is covering, and it seems that compound lifts can produce them. For more definition sure, work them, but you can get 'em too big.

IMO muscle definition comes from diet and low bodyfat levels, not exercise. Look at long-distance marathon runners: lots of muscle definition...just not lots of muscle.

Personally, having now done it both ways I'm now sold on heavy compound lifting as the only work my abs require to be full and strong. Mind you, the operative word for those compund lifts is "heavy"

[musclemage]

I don't do any direct ab work
I think it is just squats / deads / standing military press etc, where your abs are used to stabilise your whole body

[FitIron]

IMO muscle definition comes from diet and low bodyfat levels, not exercise. Look at long-distance marathon runners: lots of muscle definition...just not lots of muscle.

Personally, having now done it both ways I'm now sold on heavy compound lifting as the only work my abs require to be full and strong. Mind you, the operative word for those compund lifts is "heavy"

I agree.

A person can crunch themselves into oblivion, but your ab's are made in the kitchen...

[Stevelegh]

IMO muscle definition comes from diet and low bodyfat levels, not exercise. Look at long-distance marathon runners: lots of muscle definition...just not lots of muscle.

Personally, having now done it both ways I'm now sold on heavy compound lifting as the only work my abs require to be full and strong. Mind you, the operative word for those compund lifts is "heavy"

It makes me laugh but the next door neighbor thinks her kid is muscled up.

He's about 5'11 and can't be more than 130lbs.

But according to her he has 'abs on abs'

Yes, because he's a skinny little ****!

He got some weights last month and is eating eggs to 'bulk up'

Bless him, I saw the box they came in.

Dumbbell tree.

2 x 1.5kg
2 x 3kg
2 x 4.5kg.

2.2lbs to a kilo, you do the math.

I now leave the garage door open when I'm working out. He's about 19 years old and he'd make a great training partner 'cos he'll just grow.

[Gunn27]

Personally, having now done it both ways I'm now sold on heavy compound lifting as the only work my abs require to be full and strong. Mind you, the operative word for those compund lifts is "heavy"

Interesting how you have come "full circle" on this. You once worked them 5x a week, correct? I remember a dialogue between yourself, Steve (Mr S) and me debating the pros and cons of frequent/direct ab work.

After this thread got started, I flipped back through my logbooks and I can't find the last time I worked abs directly. Every now and then I will do some core work as my warm up for the real lifting.

[kimsquit]

Interesting how you have come "full circle" on this. You once worked them 5x a week, correct? I remember a dialogue between yourself, Steve (Mr S) and me debating the pros and cons of frequent/direct ab work.

let's hope Steve doesn't find this thread or he'll be impossible to live with but he was right.

[Gunn27]

let's hope Steve doesn't find this thread or he'll be impossible to live with but he was right.

I think we're safe, I can't imagine him lurking in an Abs thread!







ok, now I might really be in trouble!