The New Christian Thread 2

[GreatOldOne]

I'll bite. YES!

Obviously it is not the entire law and you are not going to know the specifics of God's law and the reasoning behind them without some direction.

Obviously, yes...But you never get that (entirety). The specifics and reasoning behind them. Why bother going to church? Why not just think about it?

When Jesus really needed to think about something where did he go? Not to church. He went off by himself into the desert.

Obviously as well you might think too well (not you, but anybody in general).

[Harbinger]

Not even top 10. Damn..

Also how did you find out that info?

You need to be in the black mode.

[sawoobley]

Obviously, yes...But you never get that (entirety). The specifics and reasoning behind them. Why bother going to church? Why not just think about it?

When Jesus really needed to think about something where did he go? Not to church. He went off by himself into the desert.

Obviously as well you might think too well (not you, but anybody in general).

Apparently he learned directly from God the Father. IMO, our flaws, personal biases, arrogance, lack of spirituality, etc keep us from doing the same. While we do look to Jesus as an example we do have to recognize he was on a whole different level than the rest of us. We need additional help.

John 5:19-27 King James Version (KJV)
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

[GreatOldOne]

Apparently he learned directly from God the Father. IMO, our flaws, personal biases, arrogance, lack of spirituality, etc keep us from doing the same. While we do look to Jesus as an example we do have to recognize he was on a whole different level than the rest of us. We need additional help.

Jesus said we could do the things he did and even better. You don't believe him?

I can't quote it. But I'm sure it was in there. I remember.

I would look it up but my cat pissed on my bible so I had to throw it away (no kidding...along with a couch). God couldn't have saved that bible.

[KRANE]

Obviously, yes...But you never get that (entirety). The specifics and reasoning behind them. Why bother going to church? Why not just think about it?

When Jesus really needed to think about something where did he go? Not to church. He went off by himself into the desert.

Obviously as well you might think too well (not you, but anybody in general).

I'll give you this. Not necessarily to church, but a gathering or an assembly. The scriptures say it explicitly:

Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

Hebrews 10:25

For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Matthew 18:20

[GreatOldOne]

I'll give you this. Not necessarily to church, but a gathering or an assembly. The scriptures say it explicitly:

Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

Hebrews 10:25

For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Matthew 18:20

I don't understand the Hebrews one...I'll have to think about that. But regarding the Matthew one...if that is true it also doesn't exclude the possibility of the same being true for one. It's just not specific.

[GreatOldOne]

Jesus said we could do the things he did and even better. You don't believe him?

I can't quote it. But I'm sure it was in there. I remember.

I would look it up but my cat pissed on my bible so I had to throw it away (no kidding...along with a couch). God couldn't have saved that bible.

Funny story about the couch. It was in good shape. I listed it on craigslist with the disclaimer, "smells faintly of cat urine". It was picked up the next day.

I had tried for some time to clean it but that just didn't happen. Somebody always wants something you don't, though.

I couldn't bring myself to pass along the cat-piss bible to somebody else though. That just seemed really wrong somehow. Cruel, even.

[sawoobley]

Jesus said we could do the things he did and even better. You don't believe him?

I can't quote it. But I'm sure it was in there. I remember.

I would look it up but my cat pissed on my bible so I had to throw it away (no kidding...along with a couch). God couldn't have saved that bible.

He doesn't say whether we or the apostles would do these things in time or in eternity (next life).

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

The other interpretation is that he was speaking about his work spreading the gospel and those he left behind would help spread it to the rest of the world.

[GreatOldOne]

He doesn't say whether we or the apostles would do these things in time or in eternity (next life).





The other interpretation is that he was speaking about his work spreading the gospel and those he left behind would help spread it to the rest of the world.

Yes thank you. That was actually the part I was thinking of exactly.

So, you have dinged me on post-modernism. And here we have the issue of interpretation. What is says is that "He that believes in me can do the things I do and even greater because I have to leave.".

Does it speak for itself? Of course not. You have to interpret it and create the meaning. That doesn't mean it was never said. But reading it now it's up to you to judge what it means.

I read that as Jesus saying we can think for ourselves because he won't be around forever to keep telling people what to do.

Who knows I'm wrong?

God. Nobody else.

However I happen to know that people have taken to this passage quite literally in the past and tried to do miraculous things. It doesn't always end well.

But if you thought this book was the source of knowledge and it could be read to get the true knowledge...why would you not think you could, with enough faith, do miracles or else inspire God to do them for you?

The face of it seems clear. Jesus is leaving and anybody else can do the same things he did and even better.

There is a true answer, right? It can't be a matter of interpretation, could it?

There probably is a true answer. But who knows it and who is in position to believe it?

Probably nobody.

[sawoobley]

However I happen to know that people have taken to this passage quite literally in the past and tried to do miraculous things. It doesn't always end well.
But if you thought this book was the source of knowledge and it could be read to get the true knowledge...why would you not think you could, with enough faith, do miracles or else inspire God to do them for you?

I'm pretty sure the apostles had power and authority given to them to do miracles in the name of Christ and were working with more than just faith (i.e. priesthood power). Unless you have this power given to you then you are not going to be do these types of miracles and it wouldn't be for show or competition anyways. I don't recall any of the recorded miracles being greater than raising Lazarus from the dead. Common sense tells us that there aren't people doing greater things than this unless you have a different definition of greater miracles such as the miracle of change that comes into the life of a newly spiritually reborn Christian through conversion to the gospel.

If you read a scripture and it doesn't jive with reality when taken literally it's always good to suspend judgement until you get more information/context to make a better interpretation.

There is a true answer, right? It can't be a matter of interpretation, could it?

There probably is a true answer. But who knows it and who is in position to believe it?

Probably nobody.

You are asking the right questions.

[Harbinger]

Can any of you find hidden meaning in this image?

[MuscleXtreme]

Sup guys, what did I miss?

[GreatOldOne]

Can any of you find hidden meaning in this image?

No but interestingly this is actually a good way to convey encrypted messages. You encrypt them and then embed them in images which can be passed back and forth in normal discourse.

The thing about analogy, meaning, prophecy..hidden meaning...is this. All you have to do is say it's true. If it is vague enough it will always be true to somebody.

[MuscleXtreme]

Post is mainly for muscleXtreme, as I know he is interested in east/west ecumenism. Others might find it interesting too.

Interdasting, I found this particular paragraph intriguing:

Moreover, our need for one another grows greater with the years. It is sometimes suggested that the future of society in the West�and so, perhaps, the world�is open to three �options�: Christianity, Islam, and a consumerism so devoid of transcendent values as to be, inevitably, nothing but a pervasive and pitiless nihilism. The last of these has the singular power of absorbing some of the energies of the other two without at first obviously draining them of their essences; the second enjoys a dogmatic warrant for militancy and a cultural cohesiveness born both of the clarity of its creed and the refining adversities of political and economic misfortune; but the only tools at Christianity�s disposal will be evangelism and unity. The confrontation between the Church and modern consumerism will continue to occur principally in the West, where a fresh infusion of Orthodoxy�s otherworldliness may prove a useful inoculant; but the encounter or confrontation with Islam will be principally, as it long has been, in the East. It is impossible to say what peace will be wrought there or what calamity, but it may well be that the Petrine office, with its unique capacity for �strengthening the brethren� and speaking the truth to the world, will prove indispensable.

Find it hard to disagree with. The irony that I'm seeing is that those states that head towards the nihilist side get engulfed with muslim immigrants ala The UK, Denmark, Holland, etc.

[MuscleXtreme]

Top 10 posters in this thread.

Gone for a week and I didn't slip in the polls. Think I spend too much time here...

[MuscleXtreme]

Can any of you find hidden meaning in this image?

Looks like someone is excited for H2's "Your bleeped up brain".

[Fiyero]

How you doing bro?

Been a rough week. Partly because I've worked 70 hours this week in very hazardous working conditions. Other issues haven't gotten better either. Thanks for asking though.

[metroins]

I know a lot of you don't believe in what I believe in. I posted a few times here a few months ago.

Is it possible to believe in Christianity without believing Jesus Christ is our lord and savior?

Not sure exactly what I am asking myself, I'm just searching for meaning still.

I just don't know if I fit in with most Christians, especially since I have met a few in real life the past couple months. I am confused by how the baptists of Texas take the bible so literally.

Still searching and still confused. I was into Christianity for a while there.

[lasher]

I know a lot of you don't believe in what I believe in. I posted a few times here a few months ago.

Is it possible to believe in Christianity without believing Jesus Christ is our lord and savior?

My personal opinion is that you would be a nominal christian in this case. Something like a Shelby Spong - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Shelby_Spong. It sounds like you are mainly interested in the cultural aspects of christianity and not much else?

Not sure exactly what I am asking myself, I'm just searching for meaning still.

Good luck, I hope you find it (srs).

I just don't know if I fit in with most Christians, especially since I have met a few in real life the past couple months. I am confused by how the baptists of Texas take the bible so literally.

American evangelical christianity is a very very different creature than what you see in the rest of the world. I never saw you being a baptist to begin with. Why should their beliefs in biblical innerancy matter to you? Evangelical baptists are not the final theological authority for anyone other than themselves.

Still searching and still confused. I was into Christianity for a while there.

Keep at it man. Did you ever attend a lutheran (ecla) or episcopal/anglican church as I suggested to you last time?

[CalmWind]

I know a lot of you don't believe in what I believe in. I posted a few times here a few months ago.

Is it possible to believe in Christianity without believing Jesus Christ is our lord and savior?

Not sure exactly what I am asking myself, I'm just searching for meaning still.

I just don't know if I fit in with most Christians, especially since I have met a few in real life the past couple months. I am confused by how the baptists of Texas take the bible so literally.

Still searching and still confused. I was into Christianity for a while there.

To be a Christian means to follow the Christ. The Messiah.

If you do not, then you are not a Christian.


Yeshua the Messiah our savior.

[GreatOldOne]

To be a Christian means to follow the Christ. The Messiah.

If you do not, then you are not a Christian.


Yeshua the Messiah our savior.

[ElderJefferson]

For morality without faith is empty.

I'm not so sure we can make that statement, brother. True, in the long run morality without faith is empty because we're not saved by morality. From a salvation point of view, I fully agree with you on that. However, morality is not something that comes only to the Christian. There are many men and women who are upright and honest in their dealings with others, and even selfless, and yet do not number themselves as a servant of Christ. My dad was one of them. A devout atheist most of his life, and yet he taught me to never lie, never steal (who couldn't stand a thief), be as true to your word as the needle to the pole, and to help others as much as you can (he said a man who doesn't help others more than himself is just a waste of a man). All these teachings are taught by our Lord in His word, and they're all moral by nature.

Now, one could argue that perhaps a non-Christian has ulterior motives behind his acts of morality. That's hard to assess. But I believe there are many moral atheists walking among us, and hopefully they'll one day see what we see, and know Who we know on a personal level: Christ Jesus our Lord.

[ElderJefferson]

To be pedantic for a minute, this is a Christian thread in the Religion/Politics Forum.

Then how do you define "trolling" and "flame-baiting"?

[CalmWind]

I'm not so sure we can make that statement, brother. True, in the long run morality without faith is empty because we're not saved by morality. From a salvation point of view, I fully agree with you on that. However, morality is not something that comes only to the Christian. There are many men and women who are upright and honest in their dealings with others, and even selfless, and yet do not number themselves as a servant of Christ. My dad was one of them. A devout atheist most of his life, and yet he taught me to never lie, never steal (who couldn't stand a thief), be as true to your word as the needle to the pole, and to help others as much as you can (he said a man who doesn't help others more than himself is just a waste of a man). All these teachings are taught by our Lord in His word, and they're all moral by nature.

Now, one could argue that perhaps a non-Christian has ulterior motives behind his acts of morality. That's hard to assess. But I believe there are many moral atheists walking among us, and hopefully they'll one day see what we see, and know Who we know on a personal level: Christ Jesus our Lord.

I am willing to bet your father was at one point, a Christian. Earlier in his life perhaps.

He became atheist after.

So the influence of Yeshua the Messiah is already there. Your father became atheist not because he rebelled against the teachings of God, but because he simply leaned on his own understanding and it failed him.

[ElderJefferson]

AKR was one of the most truly Christlike people I know.

Then you either need to get out more often or study a little bit more about who Jesus really is. That brother's attitude was horrendous. The only thing that repulsed people about Jesus was His righteousness (just ask the Pharisees).

[ElderJefferson]

Sometimes I think that religious people have a switch that they switch that completely turns off the reason part of the brain.

"For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;" I Corinthians 1:26, 27

[ElderJefferson]

I am willing to bet your father was at one point, a Christian. Earlier in his life perhaps.

He became atheist after.

So the influence of Yeshua the Messiah is already there. Your father became atheist not because he rebelled against the teachings of God, but because he simply leaned on his own understanding and it failed him.

He died a Christian. Long story; awesome testimony (save it for a later date).

He was raised by my grandparents as a Catholic-turned-Methodist. He never bought into religion, thinking that man's reason was greater than anything contained in an old book. Staunch atheist throughout my upbringing (definitely not a Christian, yet practicing some of its teachings). He never ridiculed me or deterred me from having faith in God (which I did at a young age), for which I gave him a lot of credit. He was one of those "choose your own path and pick whatever works for you" type of men.

[CalmWind]

He died a Christian. Long story; awesome testimony (save it for a later date).

He was raised by my grandparents as a Catholic-turned-Methodist. He never bought into religion, thinking that man's reason was greater than anything contained in an old book. Staunch atheist throughout my upbringing (definitely not a Christian, yet practicing some of its teachings). He never ridiculed me or deterred me from having faith in God (which I did at a young age), for which I gave him a lot of credit. He was one of those "choose your own path and pick whatever works for you" type of men.

Wow. I would love to hear that testimony. Stuff like that should be shared with others, so that we see how men work and how our Father works.


Yeah, as I said, he was influenced at an early age by the Messiah. He only turned atheist afterwards, probably for the same reasons I was an atheist..... but we eventually see the error of our ways and come back home to the Father who loves us.

I am so happy that your dad came back to the love and peace of our Messiah.

[ElderJefferson]

Then might I suggest you reread the NT. He was nothing like Christ. Not that its likely he'd appreciate your comparison.

Hey brother, I meant to rep you on this, but I think I negged by mistake (serious). Let me know if I screwed it up (I don't care about reps, but didn't want to send the wrong impression).

[ElderJefferson]

Wow. I would love to hear that testimony.

I'll try to pen it on here one day. Want to make sure I give it it's just due. I closed a sermon with his testimony years ago, the only time I've really ever included it in one of my messages. Was one of the most powerful sermons I've preached according to the saints.